* WARNING * Mature themes within -- Rainbow stickers and lightsabers, Challange issued!

This is a great idea, DarthBreezy! This is just a quick chime in before DRL shows up again.

Here is my attempt to answer the questions, although in writing I have not really dealt too much with romantic intimacy. I have only just begun to venture into that area.

what happens when one party 'pulls away'? How does it FEEL to the characters in question? How can we (as writers) convey this without going over the top and into whine and cheese country?

Yikes! Those are difficult questions. From the point of view of the person left behind, they likely will feel rejected. They could overcompensate or try to fix things (possibly adding to frustrations on both sides or make things worse), believing it is their fault for the distance. Maybe they become more attentive, filled with uncertainty or they also retreat, it depends on the personality of the character.

As a writer, I would show the manifestations of these feelings as little things like anxiety, developing of nervous habits or even immersing themselves in their work. They can think about it, analyze it, but too much drifts into the ?whine and cheese? zone. They might realize they are hurt but not know how much pain they really are in and it shows through their actions.

I don?t know if that made sense, it is late and my brain is mush.

 

Great idea for a topic! Where are all the people who should be replying anyway?

Well, heres my two cents.

Intimacy in couples within stories can be a powerful character development and emotional tool for writing. But it can be a touchy subject as well. In one of my Padme/Vader stories I used intimacy when Padme is with holding any kind of sexual intimacy what so ever, weither touching her hand or kissing her, or more. I don't get explict about it of course, but that is in fact what is going on. She with holds it because it is really the only she can controlll. Everything, already has been, under threat, of being taken away from her. Also the fact that she is a bit frightend of Vader, and the fact that she still loves him, weither for what he once was, or what she wants him to be. So in denying intimacy she also denys her own feelings, keeping that under control and allowing her to at least (try to) safely despise him. Safer for her emotions anyway. much simpler.

Another intersting little note about character intimacy, but the opposite case as I just showed. It is entirely possible for two characters to have physical intimacy on all levels, yet deny any verbal profession of this, or even not envolve emotion, or not admitting it.

In one story of mine, two characters (Ganner and Bressal) end up with a one night stand, while one is the prisoner of the other. (Bressal is a peace brigader). So obviously this starts out as a purely physical thing. It slowly becomes emotional, but neither of them accept this or admit it, to themselves or eachother. When they are not either kissing or in the bedroom, they act almost like strangers or enemies. A deliberit emotional distancing. Only after seperating, and several huge events do they miss eachother, and realize the other person did matter. And only at the very very end of the story, in the lost post, and their last scene do they finnaly say the 'love' word.

So physical intimacy isn't the only kind that can be used as being with held.

 

nono, it made a lot of sense.

Personally, I think the easiest way to avoid the whine-and-cheese is to make sure that your story stays plot driven rather than character driven.

Character driven stories can be great, and you can certainly go that route and still remain safely out of the clutches of the dark side of the angst. But for instance, check out some of Joss Wheadon's work. Buffy goes through some very difficult issues (her whole relationship with Angel is actually strangely relevant). He avoids the angstfest (well, sixth season notwithstanding) by focusing on the bad guy of the episode.
And personal issues certainly still come up in plot-driven stories. A master-padawan team that's having a problem with its relationship isn't going to be able to focus as well on the mission. Their fighting may be sub-par or slightly out of sync, and they may have a lot of trouble communicating around the elephant in the room. But if you relate all that to the plot itself, rather than it being there for its own sake, you're almost always in the clear.

Granted, this is coming from an action/adventure writer who specializes in the "laugh, cry, and kiss two hours goodbye" type fanfiction that has as much to do with a specific external conflict as it does with how the characters react to the conflict and each other. I really don't know how I'd stay away from the whine and cheese in a character-driven story... The only one of those I've ever written got rejected by the archive .

 

So far so good gang! Anyone else?

 

what happens when one party 'pulls away'? How does it FEEL to the characters in question? How can we (as writers) convey this without going over the top and into whine and cheese country?

I think it's important to demonstrate emotion without always describing it. When it comes to angst or intense emotion in particular, it's very easy to go overboard by revealing a characters innermost thoughts and feelings in a long and drawn out fashion. It's as if we forget that a person's subtle actions reveal as much about what they're thinking (to us and to characters they interact with), as a simple statement of emotion.

I think, most often, when writing emphasizes inner drama rather than what's playing out in a scene, that boundary between a powerful scene and 'whine and cheese' is breached. Not always, have you (for admittedly, I've also seen it well done) but frequently.

I'm certain that I'm guilty of it.

Ivy

 

what happens when one party 'pulls away'? How does it FEEL to the characters in question? How can we (as writers) convey this without going over the top and into whine and cheese country?

This is actually a theme I use a lot in my stories. Like Princess1, in one of my stories I have two characters who have a one night stand, this one coming from acting on emotion and without any real thought. Since then, they spend it circling one another, not game to enter the land of no-going-back.

Another area is family divide. An event occurs that effects one member of the family and they pull away, leaving the other members to wonder what is going on and try to redeem their lost one.

I find that using actions rather then dialogue gives more strength in such circumstances. One character saving the other, revealing their true feelings. Too much dialogue, I find, makes a fic too wordy and stalls the events. Maybe the occasional inner monologe in relation to an event, but the key thing is not to get caught up in it. Keep the fic moving while at the same time showing what is happening to the characters both mentally and physically. I'm more a mental person myself; nothing better then messing with characters mind.

Well, that's my .2 cents on the issue.

 

The key - in any endeavor to define intimacy and/or its disruption - is balance (and wouldn't Master Yoda love that one?) But I think it's true, no matter how Jedi it might sound.

For example: (Prepare yourself for a shock here ) - I adore Obi-Wan Kenobi - from wet-behind-the-ears initiate all the way to that venerable wizard awaiting his fate at the hands of the child he once loved (still loves? - but that's another story). And I love wounded Obi, bloodied Obi, hurt Obi, carrying-the-weight-of-the-world Obi, etc. But, surprisingly enough, I do NOT like suicidal Obi, or beaten Obi - because I do not believe such characteristics are part of his character.

So, how do we portray these painful moments without deteriorating into 'Woe is me' boredom. Surprisingly enough - given the fact that he's not exactly Ernest Hemingway in the writing dept. - GL provides a pretty darned good answer.

To wit: picture the scene in the Jedi Council chamber - the infamous scene in which one (slightly roguish) Jedi Master, by virtue of 5 little words - "I will train him then" - effectively inserts dagger into the back of his own apprentice - and if anyone doubts the EFFECT (which is not necessarily the same as the INTENT) of that announcement, I invite them to go back and look at the scene again, to look at the frozen (though fleeting)expression of mortification on that young face, and then, at the definite (though even more fleeting) look of guilt on the older face. It was a devastating moment for the padawan, and we are allowed to see that for just one heartbeat, from the look in his eyes. But, in the next moment, it's gone - and he does what he has always done, and will always do; he steps up and behaves as a Jedi, swallowing the hurt and accepting the will of the Force.

I think it's perfectly plausible and possible to explore the dark thoughts that would surface at such a moment, without dwelling in them enough to become maudlin. In my mind, he has always been too willing to accept responsibility for shortcomings that don't really exist - but he keeps on going - keeps on keeping on, in the vernacular of our time.

Since Obi is my favorite tragic hero, I tend to focus on his pain, his suffering, and write accordingly. And my, oh, my, what a wonderfully abundant source of material! But there are other tragedies in SW to explore, including the grief of Amidala at the loss of her husband/lover and then, her children - and her innocence, which is another mature theme that hasn't yet been explored in great detail. And, again, there would be the possibility of drowning in desolation - but that would be uncharacteristic of the woman she has shown herself to be.

Most of the individuals who make up this universe have great reserves of strength, which does NOT mean that they are incapable of being badly hurt and suffering horribly; but it generally DOES mean they will refuse to be defeated by the 'slings and arrows of outrageous fortune' and, as long as the focus of the fic remains on their strengths, I think it's fine to express and explore their weaknesses. Not a wine bottle or chunk of cheese in sight.

On the other hand, Obi slashing his own wrists because Qui-Gon yelled at him - or Padmé agreeing to support the Emperor because Anakin wants her to, or Mace Windu collapsing in tears because someone wrecked his speederbike - such things are beyond the pale of canon SW; they might be OK in an AU - but they would not really be the same characters that we all know and love, would they?

As for the narrower definition of 'intimacy' - and the withholding of same in certain circumstances - is there anything more typical of the male-female relationship - since the first caveman claimed his mate - and she replied, "Oh, yeah? We'll just see about that, ya big brute"? It need not be expresses in graphic, offensive terms to be perfectly understandable and a legitimate motivation within the story.

Forgive the ramble, Folks. Haven't slept enough lately.

CYN

 

Violence, sex, hee my favourite topics for my fan fiction...

 

Writing about topics of love is relatively easy to do within a PG setting. I find that you can suggest a physical intimacy along with the love and people will understand it. However, I think that portraying the topic of lust in intimacy becomes much harder, and almost automatically puts you over a PG rating. Since obviously that feeling exists as well, though, it's one I've sometimes felt the need to use. But I find it kind of difficult to do, if you catch my drift.


-sj loves kevin spacey

 

Onward...


Inspired by leia_naberrie beautiful 'missing moment' where Padme returns to Nabboo to 'take confession' of sorts, I bring you the next topic of discussion.

Spirituality in a GFFA:

We know that GL has drawn heavily on a combination of faiths and mythologies (Buddism, Christianity and Judeaism to name a few.) The 'virging birth' that is lighty touched on in TPM is a part of many mythos as is the 'half man half god' apect (Anakin being born of the force itself) and yet with in the relatively short timespan of 20 odd years, the 'force' and the Jedi themselves have become obsoleate, even the subject of scorn and mockery ("Hokey religions and ancient weapons" anyone?)

Do you even address religious customs in your work? Why or why not? How can 'faith' or any kind be worked into a story without becoming either too 'earthy' or heavy handed? Does it have a place in your work at all?

 

I believe it's appropriate to have Jedi have faith in the Force in our stories, I mean it only makes sense. And I think that having local cultures have some sort of religion is fine as well. But I mean, having an outright copy of an Earth religion, I believe, would be kind of odd.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

A few thoughts from my side :

- I still don't understand this topic's title ... ?

- What kind of "matures themes" can be talked about in this topic ?

- I mean - I have one thing which I consider rather complicated :

Psychological drawbacks of a person - I mean such things as shyness, fear of persons, and other things.

I like to go rather deep into psychological problems of characters (although I haven't written too much in this field yet), and I think / believe that's another field not to be taken easily.

What about a romance between two people, where one of them lives in constant fear not to be liked or even being hurt, exploited and such things ? It's like what Genesis had in their song "in too deep" : "You know I love you, but I just can't take it ... I'm in too deep...".

EDITED BY THE AUTHOR.

 

Sorry AlrikFassbauer, but I'm afraid you are a bit off base here...



Intamacy is not limited to passion, inded Passion tends to lend itself to discussions on sex and sexuality which have been almost hashed to death...
(Although issues on sexuality and morality may come up later if there is a call for it).

Mature themes is an attempt to get past the giggle giggle blushy blushy aspects of writing... Some of the topics we'll be discussing may be distasteful to some in the future or at the very least more complicated.

The current theme/topic of faith and religious practices will hopefully bring about an exchange of ideas... I hope.

 

Yes, I feared so.

 

I think I will break this question into it's different parts to answer.

Do you even address religious customs in your work? Why or why not?

I don't really address specific customs in my stories, simply because I'm not a very religious person and none of my stories have gone in that direction. That isn't to say that I haven't discussed broader themes in my works. I do like to challenge 'established' beliefs, but I don't really go into anything specific.

How can 'faith' or any kind be worked into a story without becoming either too 'earthy' or heavy handed?

By 'earthy', you do mean taking a religion we have here to model one after? For that, I would say to take several religions and combine them. Change a perspective or two to fit a new concept.

As for not being heavy handed, the key to that (IMO) is to not let your personal beliefs totally dictate how it is written. Don't preach. If you wish to show a strong viewpoint, counter it with another perspective. Show several different sides, even if you don't believe in them yourself. I also wouldn't use it in heavy doses, just a few comments here and there to show the perspectives, or the reasons a character has particular beliefs.

Does it have a place in your work at all?

Not really, but I do on occasion have some undertones. As I've said, I like to challenge common beliefs, and this can become an issue at times. But for the most part, I haven't found a need to incorporate religious beliefs into my stories. That's not to say that I won't in the future, just not at present.

This has been an enjoyable topic so far, and I wish I could have made it back in time to answer the first question, but such is life. I'm looking forward seeing what the others here have to say.

--later--

 

Anyone else? Anyone at all?

 

Great thread, Breezy.

I'm not sure how much of what I'm going to say pertains to the topics being discussed, but I'm going to try my best.

Until now, it hasn't occurred to me to use spirituality in my writing, even though it effects the way I live my life every day. I don't know... maybe it's just me, but I think that, growing as a writer, it's tempting to stay in 'safe' waters until you feel you've honed your skills enough to move on. My first fanfic is an angsty, first-person, vignette, told from the perspective of Anakin - a relatively easy person to 'read'. But now, I'm working on a third-person, full-blown fic, told from the perspectives of several different characters. It's also got action, which has been another huge stepping stone.

My point - I do have one! - is that it takes time for authors to develop their own unique persona, to feel comfortable enough in the SW universe to the point where they really feel like they know their characters, and to the point where they can make people care about what happens to them. Reaching this step will be a huge milestone for me. When I do, I'll feel 'safer' incorporating deep subjects, such as spirituality, into my stories. Being 18, I really don't have a problem with angst, which is why it was a natural place to start from. I had to start from where I felt comfortable, but now I'm exploring new territory, and I know I'll continue to do so.

That said...

I really think that whether I chose to include some sort of religious ceremony in my story would depend on the character, and whether it would be natural for them participate in something like that. For example, while it would be very natural for Obi-Wan to meditate after the battle on Geonosis, it might not be for Count Dooku. He is "amoral", according to Christopher Lee, so the deaths of his former comrades wouldn't be likely to trouble him much. He is also deeply immersed in the Dark Side. And since I've spent quite a bit of time getting to know Jango Fett in the past few months, I can honestly say that it probably wouldn't even occur to him, even if he had survived. You can't exactly afford to have a bleeding conscience in that line of work.

If the story in question centered around an original character (which is another huge step to take in developing as a writer ), it would, again, depend on their personality and experiences. If they've been presented as earnest and good, it would fit. But you wouldn't want to suddenly have your rogue of a bounty hunter drag himself to confession for no apparent reason. The important thing is to be consistent.

Hopefully some of this garbled post makes sense, since it's way past my bedtime. *yawns hugely* 'Night.

 

What a great topic. It's so nice to find a spot on the boards with people ready for some adult conversation. Anyhow, on the subject of faith in the GFFA. I think that faith is a tragiclly unatapped idea in most Star Wars fan fics I read. The faith it must take to be a Jedi is truly fascinating. Let's compare the force to people's ideas of God for a second. Many people tend to say that the things that happen are all part of "God's plan". In short, they are saying everything [both good and bad] happens for a reason. In SW the Jedi have the same view of the force. They often say things are "the will of the force". One of the things I have always wanted to see is a Jedi question the force. After all, Jedi often do things for the same reason that monks/priests/rabbis do things, because it is "the will of the force/God". We have never really seen [as least not fully] what happens to a Jedi who starts to wonder if the force really has a plan, or if it is all a lie made by people who want comforting fictional exlplinations on why life is the way it is. Faith is not something that you never question, unless you are a blind follower. I would really like to see someone deal with these issues in a story. Just my rather random two cents.

 

That is a facinating idea, thegreatyoda. I was thinking of doing something similar in my story, but I'm not sure how it'll be done yet. Perhaps the great Obi-Wan will have some doubts!

I also have to agree with Fate. If it fits in with the character, I see no reason not to use spirituality. It all depends on the story, character(s) in question, and the willingness/skill level of the author. I have no problem as a reader with storyies that explore faith, as long as the author isn't trying to be preachy. But then again, I haven't come across anything like that here!

Nice discussion! Anyone else?

--later--

 

Do you even address religious customs in your work? Why or why not?

So far, only a little. Certainly, as others have said, there are certain parallels that can be drawn between the Jedi and religion (though I would deem them more of a cult). The Jedi are rich in customs and beliefs and morals. They're a wonderful subject matter. I agree with TheGreatYoda that their concept of 'faith,' is powerful stuff. 'The will of the Force' is evocative and strong language.

Additionally, from a more creative perspective, having the GFFA to play in is a joy. Anything that might be, could be. There are abundant examples here on earth to provide us with ideas - and I don't mean the mainstream religions we all know. The Vong of the NJO are abhorred, horribly alien, and yet, everything they practice is or has been practiced here on Earth at one point.

How can 'faith' or any kind be worked into a story without becoming either too 'earthy' or heavy handed?

The trick with working a faith into a story is probably not to draw entirely from your own belief system or customs.

I find religious rituals are the most abused in fanfic. Maybe not all consider marriage a sacrament, but is white still going to be the bride's colour in the GFFA. If so, why? Is there a priest? (I have read GFFA weddings where the bride wore white, they were married by a priest, and AFTER the marriage the new husband could officially kiss the bride.) And if sex before marriage is frowned upon - well why? So often it's laid out as a given in fic, as if we're reading with pre-set moral values instilled in us.

Okay, that turned into a bit of a vent.

In the GFFA, anything can or could go. Take a moral stance in your writing, but make it 'believable' within the context of another galaxy. Don't 'assume' your reader will agree. Quite concievably, I can write about cultures where murder is regarded as 'the survival of the fittest,' and not a sin.

Personally, I prefer to have an author's religious leanings (or lack of), remain obfuscated. Additionally, readership shouldn't dictate plot or character decisions. I've seen authors avoid tackling tough subject matter (which might have touched off a few nerves or clashed with beliefs) that they potentially could have explored beautifully. That, to me, was such a shame.

Does it have a place in your work at all?

Yes, and I'm looking forward to exploring it further in the future.

 

NICE one, DB! (I love this fandom).

Well, most people know that the entire concept of The Force is taken almost directly from Taoism's concept of The Way (or the Tao). If you look online for a copy of the Tao De Jing, you'll find a lot of things there that are echoed in the Jedi code and Jedi philosophy.

It's almost impossible to write a story that centers around a force-sensative character without getting into religion- what they think about the force, how they percieve it, is a religion in itself.
We see in the witches of dathomir that the Jedi and Sith do not, in fact, have a monopoly on force knowledge- it's all religion.


That said, I always deal with religion in my writing. Perhaps not overtly, but it always comes up. For me, it's part of every character and every civilization.

Remember the ewoks thinking C3PO was a god? Granted, it was intended as a joke, but it was religion. The very concept of marriage is religious, let alone the concept of clergy (you'll notice that there was a clergyman of some sort present at Anakin and Padme's wedding).
I think people deprive themselves of a chance to develop their characters if they write off religion as an unimportant detail. As far as how to do it well, and without preaching, it's not so difficult. If a character is talking about faith, or practicing it,then make it clear we are seeing their faith from a biased point of view- that of a believer. If there's a particular race or culture with a developed religion, then your character, in interacting, is going to see it through the eyes of a nonbeleiver or a disinterested third party- they're going to see the good with the bad, the stupid with the profound. Perhaps the easiest way to explore a religion is through the eyes of someone of a different faith.

But it can come up in so many subtler ways. I have a powerful scene in one story where a thirteen year-old padawan is telling the council that the dark side doesn't exist. Granted, it takes guts to say something like that. She's essentially questioning thousands of years of established wisdom. But even within the confines of an already heavily defined religion like the Jedi's, there's room for questions and explinations. There's room for people to find their own spiritual path and truths.
...it's late. I'll try to make more sense when I'm awake.
Again, DB, you rock for puting this thread together.

 

Fascinating topic DB. I didn't make in here in time to say anything on the first topic, although Cyn had some interesting observations.

As to religion - well, I'm not very religious but I have even had this dilemma w/my current fic. I've kinda stumbled around it so far but one has to wonder - where does religion fit in the GFFA? There's the Force (of course) but do 'Gods' or 'Goddesses' exist? What is appropriate for the common term, "Oh my god?" "Oh my Force" sounds ludicrous.

Anyone?

 

A very thought provoking topic.

While reading the religion discussion a question just seemed to strike me about the 'virgin birth' of Anakin.

Being Catholic myself, and I don't mean to turn this into a religion class if this is in the wrong place please let me know and I'll edit. We pray to Mary the mother of Jesus because she was the Virgin Mother and is considered the mother of God. She was chosen specifically to be his mother because of who she was.

What I began to wonder with the parallels of Anakin's birth was what was it about Shmi that made her be 'chosen' to be the Chosen One's mother? What did the Force see in her that it didn't see in millions of other beings?

EDIT: Wanted to add that wouldn't the Jedi want to help out Shmi for being chosen by the Force to have the chosen one? I know that Qui-Gon certainly tried to help her but wasn't able to, but what prevented the Jedi from going back later and helping her?

Agnst and/or plot I guess.

Again if this is considered off base please let me know.

 

No, it's not off base... GL has 'Borrowed' form many faiths (the virging birth isn't limited to Catholosim and the concept of a being, well being half god and half mortal (as is the presumed case in Anakin) is also as old as story telling...

Wanted to add that wouldn't the Jedi want to help out Shmi for being chosen by the Force to have the chosen one? I know that Qui-Gon certainly tried to help her but wasn't able to, but what prevented the Jedi from going back later and helping her?


Now THERE is a plot bunny for anyone brave enough to take it on....

 

Wow! Very interesting.

I agree with Fate and ivylore. Religion should be written in the context of the character's beliefs. I am a Christian, but I don't feel a need to preach through my writing. (That's not to say I'll answer questions if someone has them.) Anyway, the GFFA is a very diverse, and most importantly, fictional universe. Anything goes. As long as there is a specific reason for a character to behave a certain way or believe in a certain thing, I think it's fine. Neither the films, nor the books, have given much insight into the religious practices of the main characters. We do know the Jedi have a certain belief system centered on the Force, but even those practices are sometimes vague.

I do want to say, that the more I think about 'Union', the more I'm confused by it. It was a wonderful story of Luke and Mara's wedding, but a fellow fanfic author pointed out that the ceremony was very "Western" (as in religious practices, white dress, etc.). We know from Padmé and Anakin's wedding, that some of these practices are consistent with Judeo-Christian ceremonies, but why?

Well, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. Hope this made sense.

Inez