Characters Warrior Queen, Gentle Lady - NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC Is Padmé a Mary Sue?

I agree that a lot more could have been done with her character, but that just really fell short.

And I feel bad about how long I have taken. We had a death in the family and then I was sick. Trying to catch up on everything now, while getting ready for grad school!

 

Alright, everybody. As promised, I'm back and ready to give some more thoughts on the various points here.

bobilll: I agree with and disagree with a couple of your opinions here, bobilll. Let me elaborate, if you will.

1)Padme's smile at the end of TPM being her way to make the best of a situation - Let me ask you this, bobilll: What, exactly, do you feel was the thing that Padme had to, as you put it, "make the best of" with her smile at the end of TPM? The fact that she toppled a chancellor in the process of doing the only feasible thing she could have done to at least give the people she was entrusted with serving and governing a chance to survive? The fact that in doing so, she unknowingly happened to pave the way for a respected senator to take the post of Chancellor? If either of those is the case, then I (and again, please forgive me if this seems too presumptuous) believe that you're making the same mistakes in your analysis all over again. First off, as I mentioned before, at the time of TPM, she was the QUEEN of Naboo, NOT the SENATOR of Naboo/Chommell system. As such, her principle duty was to the people of NABOO, NOT THE REPUBLIC. Therefore, her actions were made (and rightly so) with the Naboo's survival in mind. She had explored and considered just about every other option she had left, and she took the only feasible option that had any possible chance of keeping her people from being wiped off the face of the galaxy. That, in itself, does not, in any shape or form, count as any sort of a mistake she would have to make the best of. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that her actions at the time should, in a "vacuum" context, be hailed as actions that EVERYONE should take if put in that situation: if you have a chance to change something that clearly doesn't work, for you or anybody else, then you should change it. The Republic, with Valorum at it's head, was not doing any service to the people it was supposed to serve at the time. Padme saw this, and decided to change it on the chance that it could somehow change for the better (though I'll admit she specifically intended for it to get better so it could specifically help her), seeing that by changing it, she could hardly be making things worse than they already were. As far as the second part, about making it so that Palpatine made it to the post, let me just make one thing very clear, right now: IN MY OPINION, PADME RAISING PALPATINE TO POWER THROUGH HER ACTIONS WAS, IN NO SENSE, A MISTAKE OF HERS AT ALL. First of all, she wasn't the one who nominated Palpatine for the post (If the events in Cloak of Deception stand for anything, I'd say the credit for that goes to Orn Free Taa). Second of all, and I mentioned this before, she had no idea that Palpatine's govenment would turn out the way it did, and she couldn't possibly have had one either. Therefore, none of her actions in TPM were mistakes at all.

However, I do agree with your feeling that Padme made a mistake in abetting Palpatine's rise to power, bobilll. The thing is, I think that mistake came later on down the line, when she was a senator. By this time, Palpatine had already exceeded his allotted terms of office, and therefore was already being granted more power than he should have been given by being allowed to stay on. The fact that Padme (or, in fact, anybody) didn't try to put an end to this was a HORRIBLE mistake, and one that they SHOULD have seen would lead to nothing good, at least in my view. By allowing Palpatine this, they were doing something that, unlike the impeachment process to make him chancellor, was a direct violation of the Republic's Constitution. By doing this, they were also showing that they were willing to give THIS PARTICULAR CHANCELLOR the tools he would need to become a dictator if he so wished.

In short, with this act, they were starting to hand Palpatine the Republic on a silver platter.

In fact, let me go a step further: Padme herself, by doing nothing to protest Palpatine's continued stay in office, complet

 

It's 1:30 am here and I'm so sleepy, and I had a good day today so I'm vowing in this response not to focus on what we disagree on, but what we agree on. Which is useful, in its own way. Just don't feel offended if I don't address something you think is important, because I think at this stage of the debate we've reached points where we understand the other side, but will never agree with it. So we can just let that lie.

There's the word I've been searching for. Hubris. You're right, Specterace and Luna, it's very easy to see that, in persuing the goal to do what was best for as many people as possible knowing what she knew, Padme made the "best" decision. I'm not arguing that she's a bad queen. I'm arguing that queens like her are potentially bad people. Padme's attitude toward many things is, as Lex pointed out in his first post that we're all arguing about, and in this last post, overconfident.

We actually don't have to pick through the details. (Ok, yes, I'm backing away because I see that argument is weak. And because it's 1:45 now and I'm pretty sleepy.) The fact is, Padme preformed an unorthodox political maneuver because she knew that the orthodox maneuver would not help her "save people." I personally think that her particular unorthodox maneuvar, calling a change of regime, was unethical in her circumstances, but that's where I don't think we'll agree on so I won't go there. I guess we don't even have to go into whether or not her VONC was right or wrong, but we can observe something: Padme is willing to go beyond ordinary lengths to protect other people. (Notice I said "other", not "her". She's not a god and people don't belong to others.)

Is that justified? Maybe. But like Lex said, there's hubris in that statement. The thing I think Padme lacks that keeps her from ever being perfect is humility. She'll never admit that she can't do something. I think that's a fault, and I think it's proven by the fact that her hubris brought Palpatine into power. People don't make mistakes because they see it coming, and make a choice. Mistakes are by definition something recognized in hindsight. And in hindsight, I think Palpatine's rise to power may be partly attributed to Padme's hubris. And I think that makes that particular action Evil.

 

THIS POST IS TOTALLY UNRELATED TO ANY DEBATES AND IS DIRECTED TOWARD EVERYONE WHO VISITS THIS THREAD!

For those of you who don't know yet, a bunch of us are trying to figure out a sort of Padme newsletter. In order to do this, we need your help. (Imagine Uncle Sam pointing at you.) Many of you guys who come here are probably great Padme writers or avid Padme readers. So, if possible, would you be so kind to take a minute and consider your Padme-in-literature experience? To a newbie who's never heard of this strange Padme person, what would you recommend as your most helpful writing tip in Padme lit? We'd very much appreciate it if we could have your input included in our newsletter!

So, when you think of this wise peice of advice, please pm me, bobilll, as soon as you can! If you are pm-ing as a sock, please include your more well-known screen name! Because DRL haunts Bobill, the sooner you pm, the more likely your tip will be included in our newsletter! So have fun, think wild thoughts, and let me in on it!

Thanks, and to all a good night! (afternoon?)

--Bobill

 

Ermmm... just putting in a few of my two cents.

Padmé, to me, has always seemed like a character that's too good: powerful, kind, benevolent, loving, idealistic, compassionate, and... aims too well with a blaster. Though she hides behind her handmaidens at times, she apparently cares for them, as shown in AoTC.

How can a character like this go bad?

I agree with the traumatic situations mentioned earlier in this thread, trauma does strange things to a person's brain. Brainwashing can also be a possible scenario, if someone like Palpatine trained Padmé as his protégé.

When I was thinking about that idea, I came across the idea of Padmé as a kinda Estella (from the classic novel Great Expectations). To those who are not familiar with the novel, Estella is an extremely beautiful women who has been raised from birth to 'destroy the hearts of men' by her benefector, who's heart was broken on her wedding day. Estella wasn't born evil, but she was raised to be cruel, cold, and calculating.

As for the Nature vs Nurture question raised earlier... the answer that I came accross in Psychology is that our Genes (Nature) set up the limits of what we can accomplish; while our enviroment (Nurture) determine where we can go with our genes.

One of Padmé's distint traits is her devotion to her belief of democracy, diplomacy, peace, etc... I can easily see her goiong 'dark' if the lines between democracy and other things are blurred and twisted into distortion.

Ermmm.... I don't really know what I'm talking about now, forgive me for my newbness, I'm still trying to adjust around these boards. ;D

 

I FINALLY added my update to The Round Robin!

Go to it and read! Thank you.

BTW, it would be very helpful if we can get more authors to participate in the Round Robin. PM me if you want to join in. Thanks!

 

Alright, it's time for Part II of my answers. They may be coming a little later than I originally planned, but I havent had much free time the last two days. Anyway, here we go.

Darth Lex: You make some very good points there, Lex. I'd like to give you my thoughts on a few of them, if I may.

1) Padme's personality traits could, under certain circumstances, become warped into a "twisted and evil" reflection of her heroic self - I believe this statement applies to not only Padme, but in fact, the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE. I believe, due to the nature of humanity (namely, it's mortality), ANY person could turn and twist any "heroic" ideals they may have and become "evil". It may take different circumstances for each person, but the rule applies for everyone just the same. No person can be or is "perfect". No matter what we do, somewhere down the line we are bound to make mistakes and somehow hurt another. More on this in a bit.

2) Hubris and the slippery slope from heroism to arrogance - Let me just say one thing right off the bat regarding this, Lex:

You're absolutely right.

In doing most of what she does, Padme does indeed show a great amount of confidence in her own abilities. I cannot doubt that. And, like I said above, given a certain set of circumsances, Padme's confidence/hubris could lead her down a Dark Path, leading her to commit actions that can cause harm to others. However, I believe that confidence/hubris only leads one down a "Dark Path" (and therefore, becomes evil) when it is joined with another trait. And it is because of Padme's lack of this trait that she did not turn down a dark path in the movies. What's more, I believe Anakin's fall can be wholly attributed to the fact that he not only had this trait, but by the time of ROTS, allowed this trait to wholly consume him. What is this trait, you ask? It is the trait that I believe is the basis of the Dark Side, and the heart of all evil. It's not fear. It's not hate. It's not anger. In my view, those are simply the symptoms, not the cause. What is the cause, then?

Selfishness. Egoism.

This is what I believe is the root of all evil in this universe. Indeed, the thing that I believe qualifies an act of evil as such is if it is committed in the spirit of selfishness. A person who commits an evil act commits that act caring only about how that act would affect himself/herself, and not others. They do not care about how that act affects those who are impacted other than themselves, and they do not care about how that act will be recieved by others. They simply commit the act caring about how they see it and how they will be affected. And when they reflect on the act after it is done, they do not care about how that act affected any other person impacted save themselves (By "affected", I mean both how one recieves it as well as what that act does to one). That, I believe, is what makes an act of someone "evil", and also is the mark of someone who takes a "Dark/Evil" path in life. Let me give you an example of what I mean:

When Anakin killed Dooku in cold blood on the Invisible Hand, he wasn't concerned about ending the war. He was concerned about ending the war on his terms, and only on his terms. He didn't care about Dooku's life, nor did he care about the fact that killing Dooku would not help the Republic any more than capturing him would. He only cared about his desire to kill Dooku for his own satisfaction. THAT is what made his act an act of evil. If Dooku had continued to fight Anakin even after having his hands severed, and not stopped until Anakin killed him, Anakin's killing of him would not have been murder, and therefore, not an act of evil. He would have killed him only because he would have been truly forced to, given his situation. And he would have done so with the purity of heart that only comes from refusing to care about his desires only, for the sake of ALL.

Let me give you another example: Anakin's handling of his dreams about Padme. In this, Lex, I repectfully believe you are somewh

 

I agree completely, in real life and in the context of Star Wars. Perfection exists only in mythological deities and theological gods, not humanity.

I suppose you?re right about that, to the extent that hubris in and of itself can?t lead to a hero?s downfall unless that overconfidence manifests itself in the service of some objective. And it is that choice of objective that determines whether hero serves good, or evil.

Again, I agree completely in the context of Star Wars. Jedi selflessness and Sith selfishness are one of the defining themes in the PT, something I?ve explored in my fanfics. As for a broader context, I?ve studied too much moral philosophy to commit to a single definition of evil.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Although in large part I think it depends at what point in ROTS we?re talking about.

Immediately after the nightmare, and after his conversation with Yoda, Anakin has made the decision to prevent his nightmare from coming true, no matter what he has to do to achieve that. His own terms, as it were, being that he will not let Padmé die. He refuses to accept that it is her destiny.

I do believe that at this point, though, he would have been willing to do anything, including making any sacrifice, if he believed it would work ? meaning that it would achieve is goal of preventing Padmé from dying in childbirth.

Everything changes after Palpatine?s Darth Plagueis tale. Suddenly Anakin has the notion that it is possible to use the Force to prevent death ? and not only that, but the knowledge has already been discovered and all he needs to do is find it. (Stover uses this idea in a great way in the novelization, playing up the idea that one reason the title of ?Master? is so important to Anakin is because it would give him access to Archive records and holocrons he is denied as a mere Knight.) Once he locks on to this idea, he has decided not just to save Padmé at any cost, but to save her with new power in the Force. That decision, then, leads straight to his conscious choice to embrace the dark side and the Sith, because he knows the Jedi would never aid him in uncovering the power (whereas Sidious, even if he doesn?t currently possess that power, would not stand in his way ? or so he tells himself).

Again, I think it depends entirely on what point in ROTS we?re talking about. I think if Anakin had believed that revealing the marriage would have worked, he would have done it no matter the future implications ? but of course no such alternative presented itself.

I think if he had believed that Obi-Wan would prevent her death, he would have asked for Obi-Wan?s aid without hesitation, regardless of the consequences ? but he knew, especially after the talk wit

 

musing, welcome! Don't worry about being new, we're all fans. I've never thought of comparing Padme to Estella, but you're right. There are some commonalities. Wow, something new to think about.

 

*swipes off a layer of dust from my clothes*

I wasn't hiding in a bomb shelter, really I wasn't!

Hi musingmiyu! Welcome to the thread! You're practically psychic, you know. The idea of Padme as Estella - well, not Estella exactly, but a person who has been conditioned from birth to be amoral - is something I've been drabbling on since I started this discussion.

bobilll, Specterace & Darth_Lex: I promse to reply to your 'cases' to the best of my ability! Just give me some time to do reconnaisance. In the meantime, keep up with the Deconstruction.

 

I've written my own entry for the challenge, The Prerogative of Weakness.

Lurking on the thread, I've learned a lot about both Padmé's character and just how easy it is to fall into darkness. You all are doing a fantastic job.

 

Is it possible, though, to be selfish in caring for others? As a ruler, Padme has a responsibility to help her people, no one else. Is her passion toward fulfilling her responsibilities not a selfish passion? I mean, it's not as if she's fighting for the greater good. She's fighting to fulfill an obligation. It's hard to describe, but I'm just thinking, when something so important is one person's responsibility and one person's only (not true, but true enough from Padme's point of view) then it becomes personal. Keeping other people safe, then, becomes her selfish desire because losing her people is just too painful for her to bear.


Unrelated stuff: As a reminder, guys, it would really help if you guys pm bobill with some cool Padme tips! So far I've got nada to work with, and, well, I feel like a poor and hungry little begger. Feed me with tips! (look above for more info)

 

I'm so sorry I missed your post in the earlier update. I am really sorry for your loss. Are you feeling better now? I'm looking forward to reading whatever you come up with.

 

I?m highlighting a few common trends/topics/themes in the lengthy deconstruction.

Queen Amidala?s Vote of No Confidence.

I?m also inclined to believe that while in hindsight this was a mistake, at the point in time, Padmé was fulfilling her duty to her people the best way she knew how ? the only way she knew how (at the point in time). What I find intriguing was the projection of this idea:

I understand that there were prevailing circumstances that kept Palpatine in office ? the threat of the split, a possible civil war ? and I understand that many Senators (and even Jedi) thought these were legitimate reasons to extend his tenure. What I don?t understand is, as Specterace said, why Queen Amidala of Naboo thought any reason was an acceptable excuse for his stay in office. Up until RotS, Padmé seems as comfortable as the average Senator with this arrangement.

Was this a missing moment? A plot that remains in the background, waiting to be revealed via fan fiction? Or could there be a more sinister reason why Padmé never questioned Palpatine?s increasing tenture?

Which leads me to the second topic/theme I wanted to highlight:

Padmé?s Hubris

It is particularly ironic this because in AotC, she is the one that tells Anakin that ?he?s not all-powerful?. Yet clearly, her actions show that she thinks that she might be.

Could this lack of humility have blinded her to Palpatine?s true intentions? Admitting to herself that Palpatine was a dishonourable man, would have meant admitting to herself that she had placed her trust in this dishonourable man ? and that her own judgement was flawed. Even more damning, it would mean admitting to herself that she was responsible for starting his rise to power ? that she had made a ?mistake? of some nature. And for someone of Padmé?s nature, I see this as an idea that she would automatically have shied away from. Palpatine can?t be wrong because if he was wrong? what did that make her?

I won?t go so far as to credit her with Jedi-level prescience, but Padmé Amidala was not a fool. She was clued into Dooku long before the Jedi Masters accepted the possibility that he was a criminal. Could she not have also started having doubts about Palpatine? Perhaps the realization of just how culpable she was kept her from examining her ideas on that matter too closely?

Dark Padmé in Politics

Now, I?ll play Devil?s Advocate and turn that idea completely on its head. What if

 

I just posted my reply to the 'Darth' Padmé challenge.

Honourable Death

 

Holy Cow!

What happened to our quiet little thread! It ES - PLODID!!! (it did!)

Well- it's going to take my slow self some time to catch up on this - but I just wanted to say that I am intensely jealous of whoever came up with the notion of comparing Padmé with Estella from "Great Expectations"!!!

Although it did just give me an idea for a plot....


edit- btw just kidding musingmiyu - I mean, I am jealous, but I'm not really mad.

 

Finally managed to finish my challenge entry.

Betrayal of Faith

 

LOL! We don't always make waves here, but when we do...

Really! Great!

Update.

Here's the list so far of entries to the challenge... There's still plenty of time to make the August deadline.

---

[li][b]bobilll?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24390428][color=crimson]A Promise of Souls[/color][/link][/li]

[li][b]Pandora26?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24384874/][color=crimson]Decoy[/color][/link][/li]

[li][b]rocketscientist?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24393972/][color=crimson]My Prerogative[/color][/link][/li]

[li][b]RX_Sith?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24555683/][color=crimson]A Woman Scorned[/color][/link] ;) [/li]

[li][b]RX_Sith?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24567484/][color=crimson]Merry Sithmas[/color][/link] [/li]

[li][b]Mathom?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24673490/][color=crimson]The Prerogative of Weakness[/color][/link] [/li]

[li][b]leia_naberrie?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24693442/][color=crimson]Honourable Death[/color][/link] [/li]

[li][b]Gina?s[/b] [link=http://boards.theforce.net/t/b1/24705415/][color=crimson]Betrayal of Faith[/color][/link] [/li][hr][/blockquote]

 

Sorry I haven't popped in here for a while, but I had some stuff to deal with (summer schoolwork, my job, my fanfic, burnout, etc.), so free time's been a little hard to find these days. Anyway, I'd like to explore a few of the mentioned topics now, if I may.

Darth_Lex- Tell you what, my friend: Why don't we carry this conversation regarding Anakin into either the Anakin Skywalker deliberation thread, or a tradeoff of PMs? I, for one, would like to carry on this debate of ours regarding Anakin's motivations at ROTS, but I have a feeling that this isn't the place for it. So if you'd be up to it, and you've got the time, drop me a line and maybe we can work something out.

bobilll: In a sense, bobilll, I suppose it's possible for a person to be selfish in 'caring for others'. There's just one problem with that reasoning: When a person begins to be selfish in 'caring for others', that person has, in my view, already stopped 'caring for others', simply because of the fact that 'caring for others' really implies 'caring for others for their sake' (and, if it applies, caring for them for their sake AS MUCH as your own, rather than MOSTLY your own or JUST your own). In the case of one 'caring for others' primarily/only for their own sake, a person cares for others in a coincidental sense; they don't really care for that person/those people for their benefit, but rather for the benefit of himself/herself. In that case, the person in question is already putting their own desires and needs over those of those they are supposedly 'caring for', rather than giving the desires and needs of those people an equal or greater value than his/her own. That person is now willing to do anything and everything they themselves feel must be done, regardless of how those actions can or will affect someone other than themselves, EVEN IF THAT PERSON/THOSE PEOPLE IS THE ONE/ONES THEY 'CARE' FOR. In my opinion, Padme's passion for saving her people (and by 'her' people, I mean her people in the sense that they entrusted their well-being and safety to her in electing her as Queen) does not qualify as being this. Her passion towards saving and serving her people came from the fact that she cared about her people as much, if not more, than she cared for her own satisfaction at fulfilling her duties. This is seen clearly by the fact that she explored every possible option she had available to her, and only chose the option she did when no other option left could prevent her people from being massacred. Remember, she knew that her people were about to be put in concentration camps, and she knew that Viceroy Gunray fully intended to hurt her people regardless of what she did (watch the scene where she's captured at the beginning of TPM, or better yet, read the novelization of that same part, if you don't believe me). So she already knew that her people were about to be or were getting killed. Her objective, then, became a matter of resolving the problem as best as she could for the sake of saving her people from getting, as Jar-Jar Binks would say, "pasted". Also, by virtue of the fact that she and Palpatine were the only representatives of Naboo on Coruscant, she had to have (and indeed did) recognize the fact that she was the only person IN POSITION TO TAKE THAT RESPONSIBILITY. To recognize the situation as any other would have been the pinnacle of irresponsibilty, stupidity, and most of all, selfishness. She didn't take it because losing her people was too much for her to bear, and she damn sure didn't take it becase she felt like she was the only person who had a right to do so. She did it because there literally was no other person left to take it other than her. She did as much as she felt that she had a right and an obligation to do, while considering the well-being of as much people as she could (remember, she originally didn't want to topple Valorum to begin with, and even when she did have Gunray in her mercy, she did nothing more than capture him). If her passion towards her people had been a selfish one,

 

You can't give me all the credit. ;D Blame my English teacher, rofl.

About the 'selfish for caring for others'... that just really reminded me of Anakin, more so than Padme. As it was shown during the Clone Wars, Anakin cares not for his own life (thus the Hero With No Fear') but he fears for the life of his loved ones.

 

Hmm, that's an interesting argument. The one thing is that, I don't really think we can really understand that deeply why she did what she did. By selfish for caring for others, I mean like you really do want everything to be resolved seamlessly. Padme may really want everyone to live because if a single person dies, it's "her fault". In a way, it's not that Padme's afraid of the pressure and thus quitting that would classify Padme as selfish (though I agree that would), but that Padme's afraid of being a lesser person that's driving her to do everything she can to help her people. If Padme had caved into the pressure, killed Gunray in cold blood even though it would have done them more harm than good, she would go through the rest of her life thinking, "Wow. One stupid thing and now I'm a stupid person." Which is, in my opinion, one possible reasons for all of her efforts in TPM; not that she is sincerely altruistic and cares about the goodwill of others "just because it's right."

In other news, keep bringing in those PAdme tips!

 

Just considering that: is it possible for anyone to do anything without the hope of some personal? satisfaction, or pleasure? It reminds me of the ?Friends? episode where Joey and Phoebe had this ridiculous bet about being utterly unselfish. Things started spiraling out of control where Phoebe couldn?t even do nice things for other people, e.g. give up her money, time or talents for others ? without being told that that was still essentially selfish because either: a, she felt happy after helping those people, or b, she felt a sense of pride for being good enough or generous enough to help them. Either way, she was achieving some sense of personal gratification for helping others.

The same thing, I daresay, could go for anyone, I suppose. It?s rare (dare I say impossible?) to find someone who feels ultimately miserable helping people, but does it willingly. Either the act of kindness alone gives happiness ? or the lack of happiness causes pride.

I thought so, too. It reminded me of the beginning of RotS when he wants to go back to help the Clones and Obi-Wan reminds him that he can?t save everyone.


August if fast coming to an end. The newsletter should be up mid-September. In the meanwhile, does anyone have any ideas for a new discussion topic?

 

Specterace posted:
I suppose it's possible for a person to be selfish in 'caring for others'. There's just one problem with that reasoning: When a person begins to be selfish in 'caring for others', that person has, in my view, already stopped 'caring for others', simply because of the fact that 'caring for others' really implies 'caring for others for their sake' (and, if it applies, caring for them for their sake AS MUCH as your own, rather than MOSTLY your own or JUST your own). In the case of one 'caring for others' primarily/only for their own sake, a person cares for others in a coincidental sense; they don't really care for that person/those people for their benefit, but rather for the benefit of himself/herself.
bobilll posted:
Hmm, that's an interesting argument. The one thing is that, I don't really think we can really understand that deeply why she did what she did. By selfish for caring for others, I mean like you really do want everything to be resolved seamlessly. Padme may really want everyone to live because if a single person dies, it's "her fault". In a way, it's not that Padme's afraid of the pressure and thus quitting that would classify Padme as selfish (though I agree that would), but that Padme's afraid of being a lesser person that's driving her to do everything she can to help her people.
liea posted:
Just considering that: is it possible for anyone to do anything without the hope of some personal? satisfaction, or pleasure? It reminds me of the ?Friends? episode where Joey and Phoebe had this ridiculous bet about being utterly unselfish. Things started spiraling out of control where Phoebe couldn?t even do nice things for other people, e.g. give up her money, time or talents for others ? without being told that that was still essentially selfish because either: a, she felt happy after helping those people, or b, she felt a sense of pride for being good enough or generous enough to help them. Either way, she was achieving some sense of personal gratification for helping others.

OK!!!! Ya'll NEED to STOP!!!! (as we say in the south) or the next thing that will happen is that I'll spiral into a Tibetan Buddhist mantra about the Dharma of Padmé - and believe me - you DON'T want that!





That's code for "darn, this thread is cool!"

Oh and Lex, you are officially my favorite Devil's Advocate!



Edited because I can't spell ...

 

Thanks Healer_Leona.

rocketscientist: I'll spiral into a Tibetan Buddhist mantra about the Dharma of Padmé - and believe me - you DON'T want that!

OK, now you're just teasing. And yes, this thread does have its moments, doesn't it? We don't always sit around and sew.

Oh and Lex, you are officially my favorite Devil's Advocate!

Yours and everyone else's on the boards.