Characters Warrior Queen, Gentle Lady - NEW DISCUSSION TOPIC Is Padmé a Mary Sue?

Someone asked a question that sparked my attention: Why exactly did Padme leave the protection of her handmaidens and Panaka and travel out into the dangerous, hot, foreign world with a strange man (Qui-Gon) and an awkward Gungan? Obi-Wan aside (though I repeat my scorn for Obidala), I believe it was because of her curious tendencies and wish to be a part of the mission. She probably felt responsible for the Trade Federation's invasion on some level, and horribly guilty for leaving her people in their time of need, so she wanted to feel that she was somehow involved in helping them get out of their current situation. Also, she probably didn't TRUST the Jedi, as she had just met them, with the fate of her people.

Now that I've got that out, back to Obi-Wan...

He was condescending and commanding in Episode I, though he does have a dry sense of humor and we love him anyway. Remember his line in ESB about admitting to being reckless and impatient when he was younger?

And yes, Padme was much too concerned about her people to become romantically involved at such a vulnerable time in her life. If she were to be involved with Obi-Wan at all in her life, it would be after Anakin's fall, when the only one in the universe who understood and felt her pain was Obi-Wan.

Whew. My fingers hurt. I'm done for now.

 

Obi-Wan was condescending. He was really rude to Jar Jar a lot of times, and called Anakin a "pathetic life form." But I don't think Amidala or the handmaidens caught onto it; he was really respectful to them.

I think Padme went to see the gangsters rather than the sand. Though I don't know why she would leave her ship even for that.

And I think a love triangle would be too un-star wars-y, so I'm glad Lucas took that out. The only reason the Leia/Luke/Han triangle worked was cuz Leia and Luke couldn't possibly have been together. Whereas Kenobi-love AND Anakin-love would be way too complicated.,

 

(Hee, look at me, posting on the JC again! Who'd have thought this day would ever come... )

Though I don't think it was deliberate, I'm afraid I agree on Obi-Wan coming across as condescending in TPM (part of why I don't much care for his character in that film). I'm not sure it was so much from a superior attitude as much as frustration over Qui-Gon's continued indulgence for hard-luck cases like Anakin and Jar Jar, which he tries to disguise with wit. But it still comes across as condescending, and he does have a bit of an attitude in TPM.

I've always been under the impression that Padme went to Mos Espa simply because she couldn't stand just sitting there and doing nothing. Repeatedly in the prequels we've seen her refusal to just let something bad take its course if she thinks she can do something about it. (Going to Mos Espa, addressing the Senate, leaving Coruscant to try to take back Naboo, plotting behind Obi-Wan's back with Anakin to set up the 'bait' plan, and - perhaps most blatantly - her defiance of Windu's orders to stay on Tatooine so she and Anakin could go save Obi-Wan.) She wanted to be doing something that might be a help to her people. She's, as Natalie Portman has called her, a "fixer," and she feels most fulfilled with herself if she's fixing something. Far as most 14 year olds in her position preferring to stay on a ship with the cute Jedi - well, she's not the average 14-year old, after all. How many do we know who run planets? And believe it or not, not every young female out there finds Obi-Wan irresistibly attractive.

I don't think Obidala would have happened regardless of Anakin. Even in TPM, where they interact and Anakin's still a non-factor romantically, she seems more annoyed with Obi-Wan than anything else. And even if Anakin wasn't there Obi-Wan would still have been incredibly married to the Order - he strikes me as the type that would have considered the Order a fulfilling enough relationship even without the no attachment rule. Post-Anakin's fall? I don't think there'll be time. It'd scream of 'rebound' anyway, and we know that her relationship with Anakin wasn't just a fling. Assuming she lived long enough, I think it would take Padme a long time (if she ever did) to get over losing Anakin, her husband and her children's father, as painfully as she did. If anything, I'd think Obi-Wan would just be the worst possible reminder of what she'd lost, which would make romantic bonding even more difficult. Not to mention, if I were Obi-Wan, I'd still be feeling stung at her for having helped Anakin betray the Order as much as she did.

If Anakin hadn't come along - heh, this is kind of hard for me to speculate on, as I believe 'the will of the Force' brought them together to begin with, that no matter what, they'd still wind up meeting one another eventually. But, if they hadn't... I'm uncertain. Part of me looks at how powerful and passionate a force Anakin was in her life, and how much it still took for her to decide to be with him - that if he hadn't come along, she'd just continue to set aside her own personal desires for the sake of others until it was too late for something like a family. Then part of me thinks that maybe Anakin just sped up the process of her reaching a decision she'd have eventually reached at some point anyway: to allow herself the possibility of a family. If one looks at the deleted scenes as a valid background for her character, you can see that at the time of AotC she already very much wants a family, and maybe that desire would have won out eventually. She might have met some nice guy, had a "mess of kids," and would probably have been fairly content, but still not knowing any of the passion she'd have experienced with Ani. I think it could easily have gone either way, but somehow, I lean towards the idea that it would have taken someone more than a nice guy - namely, someone like Ani - to make her wake up and decide to take some charge in her personal life.

 

Well put Alderaan21, brilliantly put!

If Padme does end up with someone else after Anakins's fall, the odds are that it cannot and would not be Obi-Wan. How can it? They'd probably resent each other for the roles they played in Anakin's fall - deliberately or not. And he'd be a constant reminder to her about Anakin, Luke... everything that she had loved and lost.

And if Anakin had never come along? Well, I'm torn between your two options - Padme just talking about settling down and never actually doing it and Padme meeting a nice guy. I think Anakin Skywalker literally swept Padme off her feet, like someone said earlier, their kind of chemistry ... is pretty much irresistible. Would she have been so quick to settle down with someone else? No. At the same time, I can picture Padme getting into a political union for love of Naboo and all that. It's part of her self-sacrificing nature.

 

Excellent arguement, Alderaan21.

On the Obidala mind-set: I think it goes back to the old romantic/fairytale stories/myths of a knight rescuing a maiden from the dragon, or whatever may be imprisoning her She's "holding out for a hero" to set her free from what is repressing her.

You can see this archetype in Princess Leia when she is rescued by Luke in ANH. She was basically doing nothing to fight Empire (wrong Rebel base locations aside) until Luke frees her from her imprisonment, then she takes charge, shooting back at the stormtroopers and leading the Heroes out of dragon's lair through the secret tunnel (garbage chute) where the stormtroopers can't follow.

If we go back to the orignal idea of doing TPM without Qui-Gon, Padmé may be looking to stay with the Jedi because he's a man of action, a man confident in his quest to get things done, and his example may teach her something. So as long as it is her mind and not her heart that is leading her out into the desert after Obi-Wan, she's basically studying the Jedi to see if she can learn something from someone so confident. As a 14 year-old leader of an entire planet, would you feel a little unsure under the circumstances?

On the reasons why Padmé followed Qui-Gon and Jar-Jar into the desert, the most official explanation I can find comes from Queen Amidala's Episode I journal as written by Jude Watson:

Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Captain Panaka, and Ric Olié have informed us that our hyperdrive is leaking. We don't have enough power to reach Coruscant. We must land on a planet called Tatooine for repairs.

Sabé nodded in agreement. I wanted to scream. A delay now could cost many lives!

We don't have a choice, they say. Tatooine is apparently our best bet. It is remote, beyond the reach of the Trade Federation. But it is ruled by gangsters and thieves.

Naturally, Captain Panaka is worried. He thinks that we should find another planet to land on. But Qui-Gon wants me to trust him. Again.

Nothing against Qui-Gon. But from now on, I won't even trust a Jedi. If a landing party leaves this ship on Tatooine, I'm going with them.

A bit vague, yes, but there you have it. BTW, I highly recommend that book to anyone who wants to get behind Queen Amidala's thoughts during TPM.

 

A friend of mine mention this thought so I thought I would share it.

In regards to if events in TPM had been different etc or even if they remained same and you continue on with the Saga. Padme's tastes and maturity etc during TPM in some ways are different then 10 years later in ATOC. What she was trying to tell me is that as we grow older especially from out teen years etc what might have been yucky just for example to a person then might be different 10 years later. For example A guy we thought might be a idoit or cold or don't trust etc (for the lack of a better word at the moment) 10 years ago might be the most handsome, lovable, intelligent guy we know. You know the ugly duckling into a Swan kind of thing. Applying what she was trying to tell me, that 10 years ago Padme may not have been intererest or had disliked Obi-wan but as she grew up and became even more mature then she was then, she could haved have fallen for Obi-wan instead of Anakin. For one thing his charm does shine thru more in atoc then tpm.

Just like tastes in music, food etc changes as we grow up, its possible that we see things differently in later years so to speak.

Okay not sure that makes any sense, some of things I agreed with my friend on but not all. But come to think of all the rumors before atoc came out in regards to obidala or triangle, this could have been what GL was thinking before changing his mind.

Just a thought.

 

Ah, but the difference with Padme is that she wasn't a "normal" teenager. She was a queen by age fourteen, for Force sake! Her excuse in AOTC seemed to be that she was "too busy" for love, though she planned to settle down in the near future. Deleted scenes and the novelization revealed pressure from Sola and Jobal to give up public service and settle down, and I think Padme was somewhat reluctant to touch the subject, as she knew in her heart of hearts that they were right. She adored Ryoo and Pooja and knew that she wanted children of her own someday (so sad when you think about it...), but I tend to agree that without Ani she would probably have put it off and put it off until she was around Sio Bibble's age. Lucky Jedi boy came around then, eh?

I completely agree with Alderaan21 too, and I'm glad (s)he mentioned this; while I can see Padme and Obi-Wan consoling each other after The Fall, they must also feel horribly bitter towards one another. Obi-Wan's job as Anakin's Master and mentor was to keep him on the path of the Jedi, and therefore keep him from Padme and his mother, hence he was partially responsible for his descent to the Dark Side. Padme lied to Obi-Wan and defied all that he and his padawan stood for by returning and accepting Anakin's love. Plus, there's the added factor that Padme hides her children from Anakin, which suggests that she, too, has betrayed him in a sense (or at least that's what he must think), and so she is responsible for his turn to Vader also. Therefore, Obi-Wan and Padme must both harbor bitter feelings toward the other.

Did that make any sense? LOL. It did in my head.

 

nadenaberrie--- You're making sense. In fact, you have touched upon something that has always made a 'post-fall' Obidala seem ridiculous to me.

I agree that Obi-Wan is likely to feel tremendously bitter at the woman who 'caused it all.' Given teh Jedi world-view, he could not think anything else. Sure his Padawan was 'weak' and unbalanced, caring more for real thinhgs and being afraid of change (i.e. being human), but if she hadn't lead him astray: No Darth Vader.

On her side, if she isn't dead (IMHO, the most believable way to explain Vader is her death) and Obi-Wan has told her the 'Truth'(a concept he has trouble with), then I have grave difficulty with the idea that she wouldn't hate him as the man who 'murdered' her husband.

In short, if her emotions and his dedication to the Jedi are real, then a post-fall Obidala is more than faintly ridiculous in my mind.

Now, I'm not saying that it's impossible or being condescending about Obi-Wan's dedication (other than the my standard comment about the relative bankruptcy of the philosophy that he follows), but that it is simply beyond the ability of this reader/viewer to willingly suspend his disbelief.

 

I've read that book, Knight Ander and I think it's very, very well-written. There are no tmany EU stories on Padme Amidala though... The best thing I liked about that book was her 'indifference' towards Obi-Wan. Like you said, she followed Qui-Gon along, to make sure she was at the 'center of things' when decisions were to be made, and probably to learn from him. She hardly seems to even regisrer Obi-Wan's presence in the story, and if you watch the film well, you'll see that tthat's the truth. The only time they exchanged words was when she asked *Qui-Gon* what he thought about her battle plan at the end and he told her his misgivings. Obi-Wan said something and I can't remember exactly how she answered him, but it was in a very... not cutting or rude, but more like... *final* way... She wasn't nasty, she was just *Queen*. If you watch TPM very well, you'll notice that Padme was *herself* a lot with Anakin, and Qui-Gon and even Jar Jar but only those 3. With everyone else, she was *Queen Amidala* and not just with face paint.

 

If you watch TPM very well, you'll notice that Padme was *herself* a lot with Anakin, and Qui-Gon and even Jar Jar but only those 3. With everyone else, she was *Queen Amidala* and not just with face paint.

I would add that she's herself with Shmi as well . But you are right; there's an air of formality she has with the other characters with an exceptional few. Even at the beginning of AOTC, she is somewhat formal with Anakin (which frustrates him) and with Obi-Wan. She goes back to being herself with Anakin and I think some of the formality with Obi-Wan might break down a little bit by the time ROTS rolls around. Perhaps it'll be because of having been on the battlefield together at Geonosis, but also because Padmé might regard Obi-Wan as akin to her father-in-law (though he doesn't know it, wink wink).

--MissPadme

 

Wow! What traffic. Hello Opal! Wonderful to see you again, TheNabooSenator and ... what is this? Alderaan21 on the boards and on my thread!

::does happy dance::



Regarding my thoughts on the topic, well I am not as anti-obidala as I was when I first got into the fandom. But yes, I still find it hard to find the pairing unrealistic - for all the reasons that most of you guys already mentioned but I have a very open mind. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

So who's going to post first on the challenge thread?

 

I remember Obi-Wan in TPM as being very aloof...

I apologize in advance and I swear I'm not being sarcastic (sometimes people mistake my attempt at humor as being so), but since when does "aloof" matter to a 14 year old? Cute butts matter to teenaged girls not much more.

I know, I know, Padme was too mature for that sort of shallowness.

 

Question - regarding Padme being formal with Obi-wan. I was thinking that in the shuttle ship on the way to the transport ship that she and anakin were to take, could she have been a little less formal with obi-wan then she was say during the first part of the movie when she sees him for the first time since TPM. The formal aspect got me to thinking about that scene a little more. If she is then I would say that this could be a tiny start to a less formal relationship and then perhaps after the battle would be an even bigger step.

Challenge thread? Where would I find it.

 

I apologize in advance and I swear I'm not being sarcastic (sometimes people mistake my attempt at humor as being so), but since when does "aloof" matter to a 14 year old? Cute butts matter to teenaged girls not much more.

I know, I know, Padme was too mature for that sort of shallowness.

I was 14 and believe me, cute butts did not matter as much to me as a guy being a decent human being. There were a lot of unbearably jocks with cute butts. I noticed their cute butts and I despised their attitudes. Obviously, I can't say the same for every 14 yr old - past, present, future - but I seriously doubt that Padme Amidala got to be Princess of her world's capital at the age of 12 by looking at cute butts and not people's character.
Obi-Wan could have had two cute butts for all she cared. Besides, we're arguing outside the context. No time in TPM or in any of the novelizations did Padme spare him a thought for more than 2 secs. If his cute butt did not impress her then, it's not likely to ever to again.

Question - regarding Padme being formal with Obi-wan. I was thinking that in the shuttle ship on the way to the transport ship that she and anakin were to take, could she have been a little less formal with obi-wan then she was say during the first part of the movie when she sees him for the first time since TPM. The formal aspect got me to thinking about that scene a little more. If she is then I would say that this could be a tiny start to a less formal relationship and then perhaps after the battle would be an even bigger step.

I didn't notice that. Did anyone?

 

Besides we're arguing outside the context..

Not arguing...just having some lighthearted fun with the topic which was under what circumstances could we find an "Obidala" scenario realistic.

And you're right. Padme obviously didn't spare the time to check him out- at least as far as we can tell. Therein lies her problem. She's too serious for her age because of the responsibilities that were thrust upon her. When she finally does crack in AOTC she rushes into a marriage with a guy who sort of represents all the whimsical impulsive immaturity that she denied herself earlier (I'm sure the cute butt and the padawan braid had nothin to do with it. ) Disaster will ensue as a result. I seen similiar scenarios happen to friends whose parents always kept them on too tight of a leash.

So, you see the galaxy probably would have been a lot better off if Padme would have kicked back with her handmaidens and a scoop of chocolate chip cookie dough and checked out the occasional cute rear end. She already had the dual personality in place, no one need ever know she was Queen. If she had, maybe she would have been more level headed at 24 and not feeling like she had to hurry into things to make up for lost time.

 

Crystal - You can find the threads for the Halloween Challenge here and here .

The challenge rules and details are listed there, too. Have fun!

I don't think Padmé was less formal with Obi-Wan on the bus to the transport, they were equally formal with each other as they were when they met earlier in the movie. She only seemed to let her guard down when comforting Dormé and when she cofesses to Anakin as they leave that she felt afraid.

 

Padme obviously didn't spare the time to check him out- at least as far as we can tell. Therein lies her problem. She's too serious for her age because of the responsibilities that were thrust upon her. When she finally does crack in AOTC she rushes into a marriage with a guy who sort of represents all the whimsical impulsive immaturity that she denied herself earlier (I'm sure the cute butt and the padawan braid had nothin to do with it. ) Disaster will ensue as a result. I seen similiar scenarios happen to friends whose parents always kept them on too tight of a leash.

The only person who kept Padme on too tight a leash was herself - not her parents or even the laws of society. I really don't buy that Padme was ever restrained when it came to romantic relationships. She had her first kiss when she was 12, and I don't think she bought that corset because of Anakin. The fact remains that Obi-Wan simply didn't do it for her - or any of her handmaidens as a matter of fact. There is a lot of fan fiction about Obi-Wan/Sabe or Obi-Wan/handmaiden but in canon, there's no indication that any of the handmaidens spared him more than a thought - cute butt et al. Apart from the fact that his attitude was unbearable, the fact remains that not everyone finds short Jedi Padawans irresistibly attractive.

Shocking fact - I didn't find Obi-Wan Kenobi or his alter ego Ewan McGregor irresistible. I didn't even know he had a cute butt until someone on this thread brought it up.

 

ARGH! Blasted TFN server ? it ate the post I spent the whole evening off and on composing. **infuriated** Serves me right for being so wordy...

l_n: good to see you too. A Padme thread? How could I not speak up?

Nade ? I?m a she. (See my siggy. Are you the same Nade who posts on my site?)

the Obidala mind-set: I think it goes back to the old romantic/fairytale stories/myths of a knight rescuing a maiden from the dragon, or whatever may be imprisoning her She's "holding out for a hero" to set her free from what is repressing her.

That?s actually a big part of what appeals to me about P/A ? it?s Anakin more than Obi-Wan who?s played the Knight who rescued our ?maiden? Padme. In TPM he entered the podrace, killed the droids attacking her in the hangar with his Naboo fighter, with which he slew the ?dragon? imprisoning her world, the Federation battleship. In AotC, he killed the kouhuns, and then perhaps the most blatant fairytale image of all, him charging in on his steed (the reek) to save her from the nexu where it?s imprisoning her atop her tower. And in the end of AotC, he ends up freeing her from that which most repressed her ? herself.

I highly recommend that book to anyone who wants to get behind Queen Amidala's thoughts during TPM.

I agree, it?s a very enjoyable read as far as the EU goes ? though she?s stumbled lately with the Jedi Quest series, Watson has a better handle on the canon characters than most EU authors. While I?m glad that the EU hasn?t done more with Padme (look at what it?s done to Luke, Leia, Han, and Anakin), I?m still glad that what we have gotten about her has been good. That?s a big part of what pushed me into wanting to do a big Padme backstory fic which I?ve yet to do. I?m sure parts of that idea will end up in the challenge thread (where all the stories so far have been very good, by the way).

Obi-Wan is likely to feel tremendously bitter at the woman who 'caused it all.' ... On her side, if she isn't dead (IMHO, the most believable way to explain Vader is her death) and Obi-Wan has told her the 'Truth'(a concept he has trouble with), then I have grave difficulty with the idea that she wouldn't hate him as the man who 'murdered' her husband.

I agree. Exactly why I brought it up ? good elaboration, GL (and Bant). Also, many signs from RotS point to them having become better friends by that time period ? which will just make her betrayal sting more. Padme? she?s a compassionate and forgiving person, no doubt. But even if she could forgive Obi-Wan for having a hand in her love?s death? he?d still be synonymous with it. He?d still be the one standing there whole while her children were without a father, which would badly hamper romantic closeness.

in the shuttle ship...could she have been a little less formal with obi-wan then she was say during the first part of the movie when she sees him for the first time since TPM

This brings back to my mind the Obi-crushing Padme seemed to be doing in early drafts of TPM, the way all hints of it were deliberately excised, along with any hints of O/P bonding. It wouldn?t have taken much effort or screentime at all to put a scene between them somewhere, yet we had nothing. I think this was a conscious choice. (At the very least, a relationship between them was not deemed important enough to the final story.) So while it?s technically possible in the realm of fanfiction, as far as canon is concerned I don?t think there was a key moment of bonding between them, there or in AotC. If I had to put an in-story explanation for this, I?d say it?s because of a point Jedi_Bant and MissPadme brought up ? she?s more herself around people like Anakin and Jar Jar. Obi-Wan?s presence never inspired her to be less formal around him; she was never anything more than a random handmaiden or the Queen to him. Even in the nice scene they have at the end of the Queen Amidala Journal (which itself still is not canon) they?re still speakin

 

TNS - I don't think she bought that corset because of Anakin.

That can be explained away easily as a last minute secret purchase made via the Lake Retreat's servants. At the point in the story when the corset makes its appearance, she had just started falling in love with him. I don't think it was something she got out of her closet while packing for the retreat. Why would she pack that?

not everyone finds short Jedi Padawans irresistibly attractive.

I take slight offense at that statement since I'm the same height as Ewan and I don't consider myself short.

 

LOL... this board grows more and more interesting by the day.

Alderaan21 - *smacks head* I'm a dope! Didn't even read your siggy, or I would have waved ecstatically. Ah well; no harm done...

*WAVES ECSTATICALLY*

Yes, I'm a huge fan of your site. Anyone who is a Padme (or Anakin) fan who hasn't been to tMoI, get over there!

I'm in the process of writing a response to the challenge, l_n , don't worry. I'll have it up by Halloween.

Anyway, back to the rather interesting debate. (IMHO, Ewan is quite the cutie, if not in SW then in Moulin Rouge. Speaking of "yum"... )

 

That would make an interesting story...where did Padmé's Jedi-baiting Nubian corset come from? Does she keep some sexy clothes around just in case she finds a suitor she likes? Was that a secret purchase? What gives ?

I *am* writing a Halloween challenge that will be up soon! I promise .

I'm a diehard A/P shipper and Anakin (and Hayden...heh heh) introduced me to the joys of admiring younger men . That said, I think Ewan's adorable and I certainly wouldn't shoo his Obi-Wan away. Except he has the problem of having to get the Council's approval for everything first .

--MissPadme

 

Hmm, we're talking about the motives of corsets now? Weird...

 

ROTFLOL, Oh, Miss Padme, I agree! *hint hint, nudge nudge, l_n * That should be the November challenge (and a humorous one at that)!!! Though I can't talk, because I have yet to post my story for this month...

 

LOL... this board grows more and more interesting by the day.

LOL! My sentiments exactly nadenaberrie! So you and my dear friend A21 know each other from another site? It's a small world!

Gosh this is some activity I'm not sure if I'm ready to jump in with an opinion - some fantastic points are being made on both sides and I feel painfully inadequate. I have to say, for Ander's sake though that my current crush is shorter than me. But as a general rule, I don't fall for short Padawans.

That would make an interesting story...where did Padmé's Jedi-baiting Nubian corset come from?

November challenge settled then.

 

She could have picked up some clothes in her house... though it IS odd for her to be packing revealing stuff.

She's too serious for her age because of the responsibilities that were thrust upon her. When she finally does crack in AOTC she rushes into a marriage with a guy who sort of represents all the whimsical impulsive immaturity that she denied herself earlier (I'm sure the cute butt and the padawan braid had nothin to do with it. ) Disaster will ensue as a result.

I kinda agree with this. I read a comparison a while ago of the L/H relationship vs the A/P relationship, and the thing is, Padme rushed. Ok, so she technically knew Annie for 10 years, but how long was she in love with him? About a week. Through the entire AOTC novelization, they're still learning about each other. I can see the love coming from overpressure (from her parents, yes, but in urging her to settle down and marry BECAUSE of the restraints she put on herself,) and possibly remembering someone who represents her at a time when she was more innocent. But if Padme had spent more time with Anakin, I think she would have noticed his shortcomings more, and they'd rely on each other rather than just love each other. That, I think, would first help Anakin from spiralling down to the Dark Side, and second help Padme's good charector influence Anakin more in staying Light.

Han and Leia knew each other for three movies and about five months more before they married.