PT Was Anakin insane by the time he fought Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Cyn, Apr 8, 2014.

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  1. Darth Cyn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 1
    I mean, there are some scenes that indicate he was, from the scene where he's crying on Mustafar, to the scene when he strangles Padme, he seemed really off. Do you think the whole Jedi Purge slaughter leave him somewhat unhinged by the end of Revenge of the Sith? I know the novel seems to imply this, your thoughts?
    Last edited by Darth Cyn, Apr 8, 2014
  2. AplagueOnTheWise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2013
    star 1
    From Attack of the Clones on, he seems extremely bi-polar. After rewatching the films recently he seems crazily bi-polar to me the whole time and Qui Gon and the Jedi ignore this because of his "potential". The risk of losing his power to a potential enemy is too great thus further leading the Jedi to their immentint downfall.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's the dark side.
  4. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 6
  5. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 3
    I'm going with yes. His brain must have been literally malfunctioning for him to have committed those atrocities..
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  6. DARTHLINK Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 24, 2005
    star 3
    He was insane. No rational Jedi would keep following Palpatine's orders, strangle his wife, and duel their best friend to the death.
  7. Grievousdude Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2013
    star 3
    Most likely yes. Also I don't know if it's canon but in the game he laughs a lot when killing Jedi which adds to that impression.
  8. Samnz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    I wouldn't call him "insane" the whole time, because that would make him non compos mentis, which I think wasn't the case until Padmé rejected him.

    He was certainly on the edge of insanity, but he still applied rational thought and realized the fact of him being "evil" or "bad" now when was honest to himself. His tears clearly show that. However, his whole system of misguided self-justification and rationalization (which kind of guarded him from that guilt) was built on Padmé and her "acceptance" of his actions. He did it "for her" and, from a certain point of view, it "brought peace to the galaxy". But then Padmé rejected him. She didn't endorse his actions, instead she distanced herself from him.

    This is the moment when his sick system of self-deception falls apart. Everything he did? For nothing. That's an incredible amount of guilt coming at him at once. Of course he's pushed over the edge as a result of that and becomes literally insane. His rapid change of mood, choking Padmé is all proof of that.
  9. Darth Cyn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 1
    That was actually pretty informative, and makes sense when you think about it. He didn't go insane from all the people he killed (at least not entirely) he snapped because he realized that all the evil he had done was utterly pointless.

    Interesting.
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  10. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2013
    star 3
    He was going through an emotional train wreck/war.

    On one hand, he had Padme, the main reason he was doing everything for, and she clearly was not part of this "rebellion" that Palpatine was claiming that happened. On the other hand, you have his devotion to Palpatine that he just made, saying that he will do as he asks in order to save his wife. You also have Obi-Wan, his mentor and best friend who was not very encouraging with the dark side switch that he made. He had ties to every side by this point, so it would only make clear sense as to why he would seem a little off or insane. He had no direct source of direction.
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  11. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    Inasmuch as every Sith Lord is starkers, yeah.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.

    "Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he’s done. This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done but he’s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

    It’s the one moment that says he’s self aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    He's not crazy. He's just realizes how much he's ****** up, but he has his priorities all screwed up and this is the result of that. He attacks Padme because his anger is running out of control and is unwilling to accept that she's disgusted by him. So he tries to rationalize it as Obi-wan brainwashing her.
  13. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I thought he was slowly going insane from the time his mother was murdered, and that descent accelerated rapidly after he had his vision of Padme.

    But I also think the answer is going to depend on what markers each individual uses for "sanity." I'm labeling Anakin as insane because he went through an incredibly traumatic experience, behaved in a totally irrational matter afterwards, and could have very much benefited from treatment by a mental health professional."

    But if the definition of "insane" for the purposes of this thread extends to "could not help himself," "could not control himself" or "could not be considered responsible for his actions"--then Anakin was perfectly sane.
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  14. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    I think 'insane' is an improper term to apply to Anakin.
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  15. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    Ah, one of "these" questions.

    I wouldn't call Anakin insane on Mustafar, but he has become pretty delusional by that point -- drunk on the fumes of his own villainy.

    His love pledge to Padme is pretty dark, but also desperate (in short: "I did all this for you!"). There's still something of the little boy lost there. He isn't a tyrannical cyborg ubermensch. Getting there, mind you.

    The problem with Anakin at this point, even looking aside his most recent actions, is that he's become a little too invested in playing the role of patriarch / protector. We see him taking on this persona in his first scene with Padme, making a kind of authoritative declaration to put Padme's mind at ease, "This is a happy moment", which seems relatively tame compared to the declarations he makes to her in their last scene together. Yet there's a consistent thread nonetheless. It's the same thing, albeit massively amplified.

    I also find the following line interesting: "Because of Obi-Wan?" More for the way Hayden Christensen says it. Anakin sounds mock-sympathetic in this line. Fakely gentle. One gets the sense of a genuine, heartfelt inquiry, and also a dark, brutalizing test as the Vader persona takes hold. It's notable that Anakin seems to glance upward in this moment, as if espying Obi-Wan a little ahead of the camera which "shows" the viewer and makes it concrete. It's unclear as to how Anakin would have reacted to Padme's rejection had Obi-Wan not being there. A question for the ages.

    I also like the line -- though I used to regret it -- "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil." It's a lopsided thing to say in the midst of an intense, wearying battle to the death, but that might also be its genius, I've realized. In a very small but significant way, it's Anakin making a concession of kinds to Obi-Wan, and maybe subconsciously reaching out to him in the 11th Hour, but the moment is wasted. Obi-Wan spits back, "Then you are lost!", as if rationalizing the murderous end he's about to commit to. And that little seed of hope is annihilated, no sooner than it sprang forth.

    The key thing to note is a disparity in attribution. If you're asking the question of Anakin, you should also be asking of it of Obi-Wan. In the trilogy's final conflagration, I see two lonely men, lost in a sea of noise, willing to fall into the mouth of hell itself than help one another or concede that the other has a point.
  16. julianzolo Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2013
    BAD WRITING
    Anakin doesn't want to kill Count Dooku, the guy who cut his arm off and tried to kill Padme, yet, less that 2 days later he doesn't even hesitate to kill 5 years old kids???
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  17. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    He knows it's wrong, but he does it anyway. Later, he kills the Younglings. He knows it's wrong, but he does it anyway, because he's been pushed over the edge emotionally and he thinks he has no choice.

    Anakin didn't suddenly snap in Episode III. He'd been slowly snapping for a long time, since at least the moment his mother died and he slaughtered an entire village of men, women, and children.
  18. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    He wasn't insane. And this isn't a case of bad writing. Anakin was desperate to save Padme and whatever anger he had harbored toward Obi-Wan, had finally spilled out. I doubt that Obi-Wan was insane, when he fought Darth Maul after Qui-Gon was struck down. Like Anakin, he was in a state of rage.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Anakin didn't want to kill Dooku because the man was helpless and therefore beaten. He does so because it was in essence, permission to do so. He regrets it a moment later because that's not what he was taught to do. When he goes out to kill the Jedi in the Temple, Palpatine tells him that if he wants to be a Sith Lord, then he must not hesitate. If he does, he will never gain the power of the dark side and thus they cannot save Padme. He is making a choice to do evil things if it means he saves his wife.
  20. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    This idea is one of the reasons I didn't like the ROTS novelization. The movies make it clear that Anakin knowingly did the wrong thing for noble reasons, and ended up trapped by his own mistakes. Stover's book makes it seem that Anakin has gone into full-on multiple personality disorder, with Darth Vader as his alternate self.
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  21. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Noble reasons? Anakin was VERY selfish that's not noble.
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Of course he was being selfish. Just as the Council was being selfish in its efforts to maintain the Jedi Order. Everyone had an agenda that they believed would benefit themselves in the end.
  23. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    Well, he thought they were noble. He was protecting his wife and unborn child, upholding the duly elected government, putting down a Jedi rebellion, and ending a destructive war.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    The point Stover was making was that Anakin was trying so hard to see himself as unchanged by what he did, that when he finds out that he caused Padme to die, he realizes that it was indeed all him. That is when the reality of his actions fully closes in on him.
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  25. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    But the point is clumsily made in a conversation with "Vader" during the "NOOOOOOO!!!!" scene. It's pretty much ripped off from the end of William Goldman's creepy novel (and later movie) "Magic" (the one with Anthony Hopkins as a crazy ventriloquist).
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