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PT Was Anakin insane by the time he fought Obi-Wan

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Cyn, Apr 8, 2014.

  1. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 25, 2008


    I managed to figure that out on my own without Stover's novel.

    So, when Luke screamed "NOOOO!" in ESB and when Obi-Wan screamed the same in TPM, they were homages to "Magic"?



    I find it interesting that so many fans and critics want to believe that Anakin had a certain trait or upbringing that led him to commit his crimes. It seems as if people want to believe that only certain types are capable of being monstrous. Honestly, I find that attitude laughable. And it makes me realize that the average human being refuse to consider the possibility that just about anyone - in real life or in fiction - is capable of monstrous acts, given the right moment or the right emotional state. Considering some of the actions and decisions that the protagonists committed in both trilogies, I find it easier to believe that just about anyone can become a monster.
     
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    Stover was trying to tie it to "Certain point of view" from ROTJ. Didn't know about that movie and book. Must have influenced comic book writer Alan Grant in creating Scarface and the Ventriloquist for Batman.



    No. Lucas was using "NOOO!" the same way in the other films and had nothing to do with "Magic". It was Stover who was trying to make "Certain point of view" work in a more literal sense.

    Blame psychiatry which posits that someone unhinged is the result of his/her environment and any mental or neurological deficiencies.
     
  3. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Apr 25, 2004
    Eh, I'm with julianzolo...I think it's just bad writing. Usually if you're depicting a character that's suffering from mental illness, you make it clear to the audience that the character is suffering from mental illness. You don't try to spin it into a morality tale, which is basically what Star Wars is about.

    Even if Anakin were desperate to save Padme, there is no way he should have gotten that much malice in him, and he certainly should not have become dumb enough to think that "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!". Anakin's turn to the dark side was way too fast for his supposed motive, it would've been more believable if Sidious had started him on doing lesser evil deeds and then worked his way up from there.
     
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  4. Beezer

    Beezer Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2013
    One definition of insanity is not being able to distinguish right from wrong. I believe Anakin is insane. He states "from my point of view, the Jedi are evil" during his duel with Obi-Wan. I believe he is being honest there. He has lost the ability to truly discern right from wrong, and is insane.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    YODA: "Much anger in him, like his father."

    DOOKU: "I sense great fear in you, Skywalker. You have hate, you have anger, but you don't use them."

    Anakin had a lot of anger in him because his connection to the Force and Palpatine's manipulations have resulted in it. He thinks that he should be ahead of the Jedi, but he isn't. He believes that the Council is withholding knowledge of the Force from him. He thinks that he is being held back. These emotions fester within him and lead to his actions in Palpatine's office, when he realizes that he may have killed Padme by telling Mace the truth. He summons the anger and hate within him to do what he does. He has hate for the Jedi for what they've done and refused to do. He has hate for the Confederacy for the war that they started. For threatening his wife and the life he's been trying to build.

    As to doing lesser evil, he has. He started out with the Tusken Slaughter. He carried over into his duels with Assaj Ventress and Count Dooku, where he tried to kill them on more than one occasion during the Clone Wars. Then he killed Dooku in anger and hatred.

    Actually, he does know he is wrong. That's why he's crying after the slaughter is done. As I posted earlier, he knows that he's wrong. He's just trying to rationalize his actions. When he's fighting Obi-wan, he is fighting the embodiment of all his anger and frustration. When he says that he believes the Jedi are evil, it is because as he said, they are trying to turn things back to the way they were and that way was wrong. He believes in dictatorship. He believes that might makes right and that people should be forced to do what they're told. That's not insanity. That's a misguided point of view.
     
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  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    It wasn't really that fast, though. Anakin had always had issues with the Jedi, and with the fact their philosophy often resulted in sub-optimal outcomes (the death of his mother, the necessity of secrecy in his marriage to Padme, the tolerance of corruption and inaction in the Senate in the name of preserving democracy). But he'd always remained loyal to them, because he believed in right and wrong and knew that the Jedi were ultimately in the right, regardless of what happened because of their actions. But then Palpatine started preaching to him about the virtues of moral relativism, and filling his head with lies about the Jedi's true motives, and about how they ultimately only sought power for themselves just like the Sith. When Mace, essentially the co-leader of the Jedi Order with Yoda, made the poor decision to try to kill Palpatine and take over the government instead of going through the motions of a public trial, everything Palpatine had said to Anakin seemed to be confirmed. And if there is no right and wrong, and the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith, why not ally yourself with the side that is stronger and seemingly has a clearer vision? Anakin thinks the Jedi are evil because he believes they're hypocrites. From his point of view, at least the Sith don't lie to themselves about their intentions.

    Anakin's loyalty to the Jedi Order had been hanging on by a thread since at least his mother's death. And all it would take to cut that thread was a couple persuasive lies and one wrong move by someone he used to look to as a moral paragon.
     
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  7. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    The Jedi are hypocrites, Anakin is not wrong in believing that but he knew full well what he was doing. He was putting his selfish wants before the good of the galaxy.
     
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  8. Malcolm Reynolds

    Malcolm Reynolds Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 2, 2013
    i agree the jedi are hypocrites
     
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  9. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    This is where I disagree with julianzolo. I don't believe that Anakin was suffering from a mental illness. I don't believe there was something special about Anakin that led him towards evil. I believe that any of the characters could have succumbed toward evil, given the right emotional push. I believe this is what happened to Anakin. I believe this could have happened to anyone. And this is why I believe Anakin's story is a morality tale.

    If it makes you feel better that only certain types will embrace evil. Go ahead. But I certainly refuse to believe it. Anyone can embrace evil . . . which again, is something that many humans refuse to accept.

    Anakin's downfall didn't happen to fast. Every time I hear that complaint, I wonder if some viewers were paying attention to what was happening to Anakin in TPM and AOTC. Even the Jedi's downfall didn't happen fast. Their downfall - assisted by their own behavior and actions - were also hinted in TPM and AOTC.
     
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  10. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    Some of the differences are simply down to wiring and perception differences. It doesn't automatically mean different equals wrong, Rush.
     
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  11. Tevin Wolf

    Tevin Wolf Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2014
    He had changed a lot, during the Clone Wars series I felt like he was fine. He was constantly in combat and training Asoka was a major distraction, but in the Revenge of the Sith everything changes simply because of the baby. The Chancellor begins to manipulate his mind. In the Clone Wars Obi-Wan gets shot and they fake his death and Anakin takes it very hard. By the time the two fight Anakin is so twisted that he was prepared to kill his old master.
     
  12. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    Really? That seemed to be attitude that many on this board seemed to push.




    The one thing that irritates me about Yoda is that he's very good in sensing the flaws in others, but not in himself.
     
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  13. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011

    The Jedi are a bit hypocritical in some respects, but that's true of literally everyone. They were still good guys. A more mature person would learn to take the good and reject the bad, instead of turning on the entire institution because it didn't give him everything he ever wanted.
     
  14. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

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    Aug 19, 2003
  15. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Season 6 of TCW would tend to dispute that somewhat, and Yoda does talk about the arrogance and surety of the experienced Jedi in AOTC. I think we're meant to take away that he's including himself in that statement. But on what basis do you assume he's not good at sensing flaws in himself? Just because he criticized Anakin? Could it not be that Anakin's flaws were more severe than Yoda's?
     
  16. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    There are so many clues within the PT. His reluctance to allow Anakin to join the Order is one. Why Anakin? He sensed that Anakin might be a future threat, but he never saw this in Dooku? Which makes me wonder what was the real reason behind his rejection of Anakin? Did he share his fellow Council members' fear of the unknown, which Anakin represented? His arrogance was certainly apparent in many scenes, along with some questionable decisions.

    It doesn't matter to me whether Anakin's flaws were more severe than Yoda's. What matters to me is that both characters - along with the other characters - were flawed. And all of the characters played a major or minor role in their own downfalls. All of them. Many fans claim that they are aware that characters like Yoda or Obi-Wan are flawed. Yet when presented with the flaws of others - especially Yoda and Obi-Wan - these same fans go out of their way to make excuses. This is what really irritates me.
     
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    I don't think anyone is "making excuses." I think people are acknowledging that mass murder is generally considered a greater crime than complacency and dogmatism.

    You don't believe as such, that is of course your prerogative.
     
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  18. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I agree a lot of people do push 'different equals wrong' Rush. It doesn't make it sound in all cases. I don't read SW like most here seem to, it doesn't mean I'm 'wrong' for me no matter how often or many people try to paint me as blind or stupid. Same for everyone else.

    The_Phantom_Calamari: True. Yet if the Jedi were truly wise, humble, and keepers of the peace as they claim they'd be much more willing to admit their own flaws and not osticise someone simply because they are wired differently. It is partly the Order's fault Anakin fell, their manner towards him fed into his frustration, insecurity, and rebelliousness. They both hold responsibility.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin was raised by his mother for nine years. Dooku was only there for at least two years, before being discovered. Anakin's attachment to his mother was more severe as a result due to that. Hence Yoda sensed great danger in training Anakin as opposed to Dooku. The Council agreed with him initially which is why they weren't going to train him. The others changed their mind because Qui-gon Jinn was killed by a Sith Lord, thus confirming that they needed the boy.
     
  20. SkywalkerJedi02

    SkywalkerJedi02 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jul 3, 2013
    He wasn't crazy he just couldn't stand losing the love of his life


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  21. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    Losing someone you love is part of life. It happens to everyone at least once, and most people more than once.

    Most people don't commit mass murder over it. That probably doesn't make Anakin "insane," but "he couldn't stand loss" is no excuse either.

    And the only person at fault for Anakin's fall was Anakin, unless of course, there is a missing scene in which the Jedi held lightsabers to his neck and ordered him to join Palpatine or die. Even then he had choices, as his son did.

    LOL at the idea that "he thought the Jedi were big meanies" is an excuse.
     
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  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It isn't meant to be an excuse. It is meant for us to understand why he would do what he did.
     
  23. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011

    I don't see myself as making excuses for the Jedi. But I do feel the need to defend them in the face of numerous accusations that they were the "real villains" of the prequels, and other such nonsense like that. Not that you were saying that, but it's a sentiment that's gained a lot of currency for some reason.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    He did what he did because he bought into Palpatine's bull****.

    He did what he did because he decided that his own desires were more important than the lives of the people he murdered.

    That's it in a nutshell.

    The Jedi had nothing to do with it, and if Anakin went to Palpatine because they didn't give him everything he wanted--that still does not mean that they were responsible for giving him everything he wanted.

    And really, name one instance when Anakin was OK with being told "no," aside from Obi-Wan telling him not to stop the gunship to rescue Padme, and that took some persuasion.
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Yet he was aware of that flaw, as I pointed out. So it doesn't help the narrative of "Yoda wasn't good at sensing his own flaws".

    I noticed that. Because you don't acknowledge this massive difference in scale, you imply that Yoda must have significant flaws which he does not sense. But this assumption is not supported in the films. It is only speculative in nature.