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PT Was Anakin Skywalker a "bad" Jedi?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Charlie512, May 28, 2013.

  1. TX-20

    TX-20 Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 21, 2013
    Bad Jedi? Nah, man. Slaughtering whole villages is a right of passage in the Jedi Order. Master Yoda destroyed a whole planet once just for kicks.
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  2. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Knight star 3

    May 12, 2013
    Perhaps. But I'm certainly not the only one of the opinion that Anakin's turn was rushed and unreasonable.
  3. EvilQ

    EvilQ Jedi Knight star 1

    Feb 8, 2013
    If by "bad" you mean "stupid"...
    TX-20 and kubricklynch like this.
  4. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Becoming a Sith Lord and then going about trying to systematically eradicate the Jedi Order would have to sail pretty close to the line, the crossing of which would make one a bad Jedi.
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  5. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    May 26, 2005
    I think that's pretty obvious. The OP was asking for a judgement regarding his actions and record prior to that, though.
    Of course. But personally, I love it and feel that it makes absolute sense.
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  6. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Ok, fair enough. I was being somewhat facetious there. What I'm saying is that if he was ever a good Jedi he wouldn't have done what he did. Those things were there in him all along.
  7. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    May 26, 2005
    Yeah. He was a human being first and a Jedi second. That's what being brought up for 9 years "outside of the system" got him and why the Jedi were so cautious of trying to implement their attitudes and methods in him. Jedi were instinctively about "the mission" first, at the expense of any primal, more human instincts. Anakin, on the other hand, represented all of our flaws. Like him or loathe him, once the more maverick Qui-Gon departed the scene, he was the "everyman" of the PT, just as Luke was in the OT.
    Darth Chiznuk and DarthDuckie like this.
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    I see Obi-Wan as the "every man" of the PT, even while Qui-Gon was alive, and especially after he died. I don't see every man in Qui-Gon, I don't see every man as a maverick, but as a follower who goes along despite disagreement. I think Obi-Wan represents the flaws of the common man more than Anakin, who represents the flaws of the great man, or the man who is capable of doing great (or terrible) things.

    The common man isn't virgin born, he's not the Chosen One (fate usually has little interest in the common man), he isn't exceptionally talented, he doesn't have the kind of obsessive love affair (he's not that passionate) we see in the PT and he doesn't do anything remotely similar to what Anakin did. There's little about Anakin that is common, even his flaws are extraordinary. Anakin's flaws may share the same roots as everyone else, but his are taken to an extreme degree.

    What are Obi-Wan's flaws? He does what most of us do, he doesn't take a stand, he doesn't say much, he just goes along with it, even when he knows something is wrong.

    Anakin isn't the common man, he's both a hero and a villain. In classic mythology he probably would have been a prince or a king.
  9. Beautiful_Disaster

    Beautiful_Disaster Jedi Master star 4

    May 12, 2005
    I don't think he was bad..he was led by his fear of loss and was manipulated by Palpatine who exploited that fear. He took away everything Anakin cared about until all he had was the Dark Side.
    Bad, no..misguided and manipulated, yes.
    VanishingReality likes this.
  10. VanishingReality

    VanishingReality Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 21, 2013
    "Out for vengeance (against Doku)"
    Anakin wasn't out for vengeance against Dooku more than anyone else was. Even though Dooku chopped off Anakin's hand, the search for Dooku was a higher priority for Yoda and Windu, who knew Dooku personally and were betrayed by him.
  11. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    Anakin's Every Man-ness is an interesting point. Obviously there are many things about him which don't fit the mold, but in some ways he was very much the human, living amongst, and trying to be, the superhuman.
  12. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011
    Anymore than anyone else or not, vengeance is not the Jedi way. I don't see Anakin as entirely motivated by vengeance, but I do think vengeance played a part.

    Was Yoda really looking for vengeance on Dooku? I can't recall any in-movie evidence that says as much, literally or otherwise. Would Yoda have beheaded Dooku? I can't buy that at all.

    Mace is another story, the war was really getting to him and he was getting closer and closer to the dark side.

    However, it's undeniable that Anakin drew on the dark side to defeat Dooku, and that's bad.
  13. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    May 26, 2005
    Couldn't disagree more. An everyman can (and some would argue should) be a maverick who disobeys command (if it's with good intention or inspired by greater wisdom). I can think of a classic movie everyman - Chief Brody in Jaws. He continually fights against most of those around him who campaign for a different approach.

    An everyman must present flaws. Obi-Wan never shows flaws beyond TPM. He is the perfect, noble Jedi... he does everything pretty much by the book. He shows no fear, despite being placed in many life-threatening situations. He is certainly not representative of the common man. The idealistic man? That's a different story.

    The common man can't fall in love? Most people don't? That's a new one. In fact, the notion that Obi-Wan, who perfectly obeys and represents the kind of organisation that campaigns for suppressing ones natural emotions such as falling in love, is another reason he is not the everyman. As for Anakin's virgin birth and "chosen one" status, these betray the way he acts and the flaws he displays. He is meant to be a God, but does not act like one. Regardless, Obi-Wan also has similar exceptional abilities. And at no point do we even see Anakin fulfill his potential. At no point does he achieve what he was destined to.

    They really aren't. The point about Anakin (and Luke) is that they also represent normal weaknesses found in human nature - fear, impatience, anger, arrogance, hate etc. Now, I like to hold myself up as a model member of society but I can't honestly say that had I ever been faced with the same choices as Anakin, in the heat of the moment, at a younger age, that I would have acted much differently. I think most people who say the opposite are simply lying or misinformed.

    He doesn't have any! That's the point. The everyman is not ideal. None of us are - "nobody's perfect". That's why they appeal to us. We are meant to see ourselves in them. Chief Brody is afraid of the shark. He is afraid of water. Anakin fears loss and change. Obi-Wan fears nothing.

    What would Obi-Wan have done to Maul if given the opportunity when those doors opened?

    What did Luke draw upon to defeat Vader exactly?
  14. Jae-Dec

    Jae-Dec Jedi Knight star 3

    May 20, 2013
    Up until Anakin slaughtered the Tusken village, I always felt he just wasn't what you would consider the poster boy of what the Jedi are supposed to be. Of course things got progressively worse once the aforementioned slaughter occured.
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  15. Master Jedi Macen Arren

    Master Jedi Macen Arren Jedi Knight star 2

    Apr 16, 2013
    Killing Tuskens, Killing Jedi Masters and Younglins and becoming a Sith Lord. Yeah that's pretty bad. Up until those events he was ok I guess, Just shows what happens when you hang out with the wrong crowd.
    Darth Dnej likes this.
  16. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

    Jan 25, 2008

    Mace's actions against the Palpatine pretty much paralleled Yoda's later actions against Palpatine in the Senate and Obi-Wan's actions on Mustafar. All three Jedi Masters had allowed their emotions to get the better of them. Although Obi-Wan seemed more in control of his emotions than Yoda and Mace during his duel on Mustafar against Anakin, by the end of the duel, he really allowed his emotions to get the best of him by leaving Anakin to slowly die on that lava riverbank.

    But despite the mistakes of the Jedi, despite inability to rise above their conformity, despite their insistence that Anakin conform to their rules, and despite Palpatine's manipulations; Anakin was the one mainly responsible for his own downfall. But not because he wasn't a "good Jedi" and didn't follow the Order's rules (idiotic they may be at times). Like his fellow Jedi, Anakin had allowed his emotions to get the best of himself. Only the results proved to be a lot deadlier, due to his situation.
  17. Mephistones37

    Mephistones37 Jedi Youngling

    Jun 29, 2013
    is an bad jedi a bad actor and a bad character.
  18. Darth Dominikkus

    Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight star 3

    Apr 5, 2013
    I think he had great possibilities and a great path ahead of him, but the people around him (the council and his fellow jedi) held him back in a sense that they didn't let him access all of their trust. I feel like if he knew that they trusted him and that he had the power to save the galaxy from the sith, things wouldn't have gone south for so many years. Because of his peers, I feel like he wasn't the jedi that he could have been.
  19. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost star 6

    Nov 12, 2012
    If a Jedi stalks into the temple and lightsabers the hell out of a bunch of Jedi, then, yes, he is not very good at the whole Jedi business.
    Darth_Pevra and Valairy Scot like this.
  20. Maizel

    Maizel Jedi Youngling

    Jun 29, 2013
    I'd say Anakin was a pretty bad Jedi when measured against the ideals and tenets of the Jedi order at the time. In the end he brought balance to the force and redeemed himself. But I personally always found he was let of the hook a bit easy.

    Yeah, probably one of the strongest force sensitives in the history of both the Jedi and the Sith, but a bad Jedi, in my opinion.
  21. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Sep 3, 2012
    Well when Anakin did that he was a Sith at the time ;)
    Dredalus likes this.
  22. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

    Jan 5, 2011

    This is just a disagreement regarding what an everyman would really do, and what they sometimes do in movies.

    But in regards to the way "everyman" is commonly used in a dramatic sense, I'll give you this one. Hollywood would agree with you.

    But even Chief Brody goes along with the rest of the town early in the movie. He has his misgivings, but he goes along. It isn't until after it blows up in everyone's faces does he refuse to take no for an answer.

    Personally, I think Obi-Wan is more symbolic of the actual everyman in real life. Obi-Wan goes along and goes along for years and years and suddenly it's too late.

    Obi-Wan is without flaws? He's perfect? He shows no fear?

    Sorry, I disagree.

    I've explained Obi-Wan's flaws and exposed his emotions many times here in this forum, but I'll just say that what you think of as Obi-Wan being "perfect", like his by the book obedience, is actually his flaw. The same flaw that most humans on Earth have.

    I didn't say "fall in love", I said obsessive love affair like the one in the PT. No, most people don't experience that.

    Humans are sheep. Humans are zombies. Hundreds of millions, if not billions, do exactly what Obi-Wan does.

    Obi-Wan is portrayed as downright ordinary in his abilities when compared to Anakin. Obi-Wan is the hard working, blue collar achiever.

    Anakin acts like Heracles, his flaws are the same as Heracles.

    Anakin doesn't act like a God? Gods are absurdly erratic, absurdly wrathful, absurdly vengeful, absurdly lustful, etc. These extremes often result in tragedy.

    Even the God from the Bible, the one that is all perfect, all knowing, all powerful, all loving and all merciful wipes out entire cities out of wrath.

    Anakin isn't a God, but a demi-god, a divine hero, like Heracles, part human, part divine. His life, his behavior, his actions play out very similarly.

    It really takes away the everyman aspect for me.

    Anakin's flaws are extreme. He doesn't just get angry, he goes on a mass murder rampage. He doesn't just feel fear, he feels paranoia so intense that it leads to mass murder.

    Most people are faced with the death of a loved one at some point, and most people don't respond with mass murder.

    The dark side, and that was bad. Duh. Surely you don't disagree that ROTJ was showing that Luke going nuts on Vader was bad?


    Do we agree that an everyman is an ordinary individual?

    The virgin birth, the Chosen One status and the Hercules level of talent and emotional extremes disqualifies him as ordinary, imo.

    I think we also have different thoughts on humans in general, especially when it comes to emotions and behavior.

    I really don't think of Luke as an everyman either. I suppose he starts off that way, but I think the Force changes that in the OT. Would an everyman be so forgiving? I don't know. Is Luke's infinite compassion and goodness easily identifiable?

    Han is more of an everyman to me. I can easily identify with his view of the Force and his sarcastic, cynical personality. He's certainly ordinary, no Force for him, but extraordinary circumstances allows him to do extraordinary things.

    It's not that I wholly disagree with all of your points, just your point of view and use of terms.
    minnishe likes this.
  23. PiettsHat

    PiettsHat Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Jan 1, 2011
    I disagree that Han represents the everyman -- within the Saga, he has no past, no history, and no responsibilities. He is a free agent, able to do what he wants when he wants it and how he wants it. He's an escapist character for the audience to project their fantasies onto. But I don't think he represents the everyman personally.

    I would argue that Anakin and Luke are much better representations of humanity. Their characters are magnified due to the nature of the space opera, but I think they both reflect human nature to a much greater degree than Han does.

    Anakin demonstrates more of the attributes of frailty, though, while Luke is much more of an ideal, the best of us. I would say they are everymen, though, in that they typify the possibilities we face when we are given power. Most of us will never make the choices that either Anakin nor Luke make, but that would also be because we are never given the opportunity to make those choices in the first place.

    I think that both Anakin and Luke do reflect us to a large extent but in a very heightened sense.

    I agree with you that, in terms of abilities, Anakin and Luke aren't very ordinary. But (although magnified) their flaws, their strengths, and the choices they face are exceedingly human.

    It sounds almost contradictory to the very nature of the everyman, but in spirit, I don't think it is.
    Darth Chiznuk and d_arblay like this.
  24. d_arblay

    d_arblay Jedi Master star 4

    May 26, 2005
    As does Qui-Gon (reluctantly) when the Council tell him he can't train Anakin.

    We can debate endlessly the choices Obi-Wan made and whether or not they were correct (I don't think they were) but that's the point - they're debatable. Aesthetically, by movie standards, Obi-Wan is the model character. He is principled, fearless, obedient, kind and helpful. I love the guy. He's my favorite character. But I don't view him as an "everyman". An everyman doesn't carelessly jump into the lion's den, observe an opponent igniting 4 lightsabers simultaneously and merely smirk. At no point does Obi-Wan ever display the same common insecurities as Anakin and Luke. He is cocksure and confident, even until his final breath when Vader takes him down.

    If you call wanting desperately to prevent the ones closest to you dying "obsessive", I think you'll find we're all guilty of that.

    I have no idea what you mean by this. Sorry.

    Yet Obi-Wan beats him. Anakin was destined to go on to great things but never got there. Obi-Wan is a Jedi Master. You don't become one of those without having exceptional abilities. You're saying on the one hand Obi-Wan is the everyman, and arguing that Anakin can't be because of his abilities. All I'm saying in countering that is, rarely do we see on screen Anakin show any specific abilities that Obi-Wan himself doesn't showcase at one point or another as well.

    I think it's a bit harsh to describe Anakin as "absurdly erratic", "absurdly vengeful" etc. Regardless, Gods, from a storytelling perspective, don't tend to be portrayed as being so vulnerable as Anakin. Luke is undoubtedly the everyman of the OT. Yet, his abilities are arguably as strong as Anakin's in the PT and he is very much portrayed as the saviour and "last hope".

    Disingenuous to say the least.

    Again, disingenuous. Are you telling me that, as a teenager, had you, with loaded gun in your hand, come home to find the person closest to you senselessly murdered, having being tortured and left to suffer first, you would have certainly been devoid of vengeful urges? If you've never been in that situation, you can't possibly hypothesize how you might feel. What Anakin did and the rage Anakin felt is all-too-common. Even a court of law would reflect this. But that's a debate that's been done to death. Look at the Nick Broomfield film Battle for Hadith and tell me you feel the characters in that are "absurdly vengeful".

    Of course not. Just as ROTS showed what Anakin did to be bad. The point is, you concede that Anakin and Luke were prone to similar outbursts of rage and/or use of the dark side to gain advantage in a conflict. Remember, what Luke did to Vader and (the younger) Obi-Wan did to Maul would have been essentially the same as what Anakin did to the Tuskens, had Maul and Vader not had the proper means to defend themselves.

    Okay, so Luke, being of exceptional - son of god proportion - ability, and the last hope for the galaxy (another "chosen one" if you will) disqualifies him too, by that logic.

    I think most fans and film professors would disagree with you.

    Again, to continue the Jaws analogy, Han is Quint in this particular story. In the larger realm, he is a secondary, supporting and largely expendable character.
    GGrievous likes this.
  25. Legacy Jedi Endordude

    Legacy Jedi Endordude Jedi Knight star 3

    Sep 9, 2012
    If you think about it, George Lucas himself said that Luke became a true Jedi Knight when he threw down his weapon and refused to fight his own father, showing in fact the Jedi became to strict in the PT and to be a true Jedi you don't have to dis-attach yourself to anything, though you should learn to let go if you must. So one could say Anakin was a true Jedi, it was Darth Vader who killed the younglings and Obi Wan, henceforth Vader is a terrible Jedi, but Anakin is not.
    Lady_Skywalker87 and Dredalus like this.