PT Was Darth Maul really Necessary?

He become more powerful, owned an apprentice, ruled mandalore and shadow collective. Thanks to TCW, we saw his potential and his wits. Without it, most of the fans were thinking that Darth Maul was brainless animal, can't rule or can't think...

I don't understand how TCW cheapened his character...

Also survival of Darth Maul was another features of the dark side and force, seeing that kind of thing was impressive too.

 

I respect that you are devout fan. I disagree, I think Darth Maul was more compelling as a character when he was featured only in TPM. He was more mysterious and his silent nature more sinister than the version in TCW. I completely understand people's attraction to his character, I was once a Maulite. I think everyone has at one point be captivated by his character. Still, sometimes leaving the mystery is better. I would not like to know all there is about Yoda or even Vader. Part of the allure is the gaps and allowing your imagination to fill in those gaps.

 

Which takes away a bit of mystery as to his being an active Jedi and not someone who stopped and when he stopped. We know through the deleted scenes that he was Qui-gon's mentor and such, but by not including him at the outset, he is an enigma that is unraveled as AOTC goes on. It telegraphs too early that he was a Jedi who goes bad.

Except there was a story to tell. We're going to find out in "Son Of Dathomir" what it was and he serves as proof that the Force is the path way to abilities deemed unnatural. Something Anakin is interested in.

 

I'm sorry I'm not trying to be rude but I really don't get this. In AOTC, from the very beginning, Dooku is established as a former Jedi. How would something as simple as Qui Gon mentioning his master in TPM change this? Either way at the beginning of Episode II we know he is a former Jedi. Mentioning him in TPM doesn't "give it away" that he will turn bad.

Plus, I thought it was pretty obvious from the beginning that Dooku was a bad guy. I mean, he was played for Christopher Lee!

 

Lucas had intended for Dooku himself to be completely unknown. Knowing him in TPM would give away too much. Keeping him unknown raises questions. That's why he's not seen until the third trailer and in the trailers, he is presented in a light that leaves room for doubt as to who and what he is. And though Lee was known for playing a bad guy a lot, not all of his films were villainous ones.

 

So is it your opinion, that of the time of TPM, Lucas intended for Episode 2 to feature Qui-Gon's master as a Sith?

 

If this is what Lucas wanted then all the more reason to HAVE Dooku in TPM.
He could have shown Dooku as a caring and passionate person. That argues that the corruption in the senate is a big problem. That the Jedi have become to insular and cut off from the people.
We could also see him greeting Qui-Gon warmly and see that there is a genuine friendship there.
At films end he can be sad over Qui-Gons death and talking to Obi-Wan about the Sith, the corrupt Senate and that the Jedi must take a more active hand in this. But the JC won't listen to him.
Then in AotC we known him, we know that he seemed a good and decent person, that cared about people. So him wanting to cut ties with an increasingly corrupt senate makes some sense and don't scream "Bad Guy!"

Instead Lucas makes it very obvious from the start of AotC that Dooku is a villain. There was an effort to blur the lines but to me, that failed totally.
We have Sir Christopher Lee playing "Count Dooku", hmm any relation to Count Dracula?
The trailers show him with a red lightsaber, a Sith weapon. The opening crawl makes him sound fishy and the Padme accuses him of murder. In all, he looks like the bad guy and when we finally see him, no suprise at all, he is a bad guy.

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Rather the reverse. In AotC now there is not much of a mystery, it is very clear that Dooku is up to no good and his reveal as a Sith is telegraphed miles ahead.
If we see him be an active Jedi and that he is a good person and what he cares about.
Then him wanting to leave the corrupt republic makes some sense and his reasons can be seen as good. Then we are thrown when we see that he has turned to the Dark Side.
It would also give Obi-Wan more to deal with. If he met Dooku in TPM and started to form a bond with him and saw how Qui-Gon and he cared about each other. Then his mind could be conflicted about Dooku and where his loyalties really lie. If Dooku wants Obi-Wan to join him, that offer now has more weigth behind it given the history of the two of them.

Lastly, deleted scenes? Dooku tells Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon was once his apprentice so that is established in the finished film.

In closing, Dooku had lots of potential as an interesting character and a favorite actor of mine.
Sadly he was underused and killed off much too soon.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I believe so. He might not have all all the details worked out, but he had already decided the next foe would be a former Jedi turned Sith.

The AOTC theatrical trailers did not show Dooku using his Lightsaber. Only the ROTS trailers did, which by that point didn't matter. The TV spots with Yoda didn't start showing up until after the film came out.

Right, but then you have Mace and Ki-Adi saying that he was a Jedi and thus wouldn't be up to something shady. And then Dooku telling that Obi-wan that the Sith betrayed Nute and that they can stop Darth Sidious by working together. Hence the uncertainty of Dooku's allegiance. The title crawl has him listed as leading a group that wants to secede from the Republic which we know is controlled by Darth Sidious, due to TPM.

By the end of the film. Earlier, when Obi-wan is talking to Madame Nu, the subject of the Lost 20 was brought up but that whole sequence including that Dooku was Qui-gon's mentor was cut. That's what I meant. That whole conversation gave away too much about him.

 

Samuel Vimes

You basically said what I was trying to say much more effectively.

 

natureboy76, your picture sums up my sentiments of Darth Maul post TPM. Under Disney's dominion, we can only imagine what Darth Maul will be subject to.

 

Incorrect, both the "Mystery" trailer as well as the theatrical trailer showed Dooku with a Red Lightsaber. So the trailers totally give away that he is a Sith.

Several things, first TPM showed Palpatine/Sidious playing both sides against each other. This seems to be continuing but on a more massive scale in AotC. The opening crawl says that the seps are creating trouble for the Jedi and that they are making it difficult to maintain peace and order. This has apparently gone so far that the Senate is thinking of making an army to help the Jedi. So the seps don't seem all that peaceful.
Second, by the time Obi-Wan meets Dooku we know that he was behind the attempts on Padme's life, so we know he is a bad guy. And we know that he has built up a big army and plans to attack a defenseless republic, take out the Jedi and enforce his demands. Thus we have seen more than enough to peg him as a bad guy and thus his "offer" to Obi-Wan has no weight and his attempt to play the good guy rings totally false.

So the Jedi trying to dismiss Padme's accusations don't sound convincing and light of the trailers, showing Dooku with a Red Lightsaber, the actor and the name. In all, him being a Sith and a Villain are telegraphed miles ahead and there is no surprise.

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When Dooku tells Obi-Wan about Qui-Gon there is still a bit of film left. Also, as I said above, we have seen more than enough to see that Dooku is up to no good and thus the Qui-Gon mention is meaningless. It comes out of nowhere and amounts to nothing. Had that been established in TPM, then we would have reason to think that Dooku might still be a good guy. And if we had seen him and seen that he seemed a good man and one that wanted to stop the corruption and all that. Then there would have been a lot more ambiguity and mystery about Dooku's actions in AotC. And when he is revealed as a Sith, there is a much bigger shock and surprise.

It would also make a good reversal of expectations to have Dooku in TPM.
Consider, when the film is announced we are told that Sir Christopher Lee will be playing a character named "Count Dooku". Many would speculate that he is to be the bad guy. But when we see him, he is anything but. A warm and caring person, a good jedi and a friend to Qui-Gon. That would turn peoples expectations on their heads.
Coming in to AotC, we know something about the character and the mystery would work better and have a much better pay off.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Not to get off topic but, I agree with Kato Sai, having only just begun my forays into TCW and having read ahead for purposes of getting my continuity straight. I understood that Maul, altogether, was not dead thanks to other fiction, iirc. But to bring him back in the mainstream, with a series (or in another reality, maybe bringing him back in a movie) seems like a cheap way to get to a villain. It would seem more rewarding if they focused solely on Savage Opress, who could have served as a vessel for the lust for revenge that Maul seems to feel towards Kenobi, for all the same reasons.

I would find it a more compelling drive for revenge, myself.

 

Savage Opress should have been the villain of the second half of the show. Bringing back Maul felt like they had no more ideas and wanted to screw with canon because they could. Were they really out of ideas for Dooku, Ventress, Grievous, Savage and the rest of the Separatists that they had to bring Maul back?

 

"Forbidden Love" showed the saber and the duel, but not Dooku's face. At 2:06, Dooku's in shadows and his face is hidden.



"Mystery" was the same way as you didn't see Dooku's face, only a red Lightsaber and the lightning, which started at 1:04.

It isn't clear that the Separatists are being controlled by the Sith until the end of the film when Dooku is revealed as a Sith and reveals he has a boss who is revealed as Sidious.

"We do reveal that Dooku is Darth Tyranus, he's a Sith Lord, and that he's in league with Darth Sidious and Darth Sidious is pulling all the strings and everything is going just the way he wants them to go. The Emperor continues to pull the strings."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

By the time Obi-wan meets Dooku, he suspects him of being evil, but then he goes off by revealing Sidious is controlling the Senate and that the Senate was under his control. Hence leading to confusion which even Obi-wan acknowledges as being unsure of later on. As to Nute, his involvement is unclear until he shows up and Dooku seems to be more placating him than he is being genuine in having her dead.

It was Lucas's idea. I'm not sure what his reasons were for Maul's resurrection, but it started with him. The writers in general didn't seem to be heading in that direction at all.

 

I think if Savage Opress acted like Beowulf and was trying to avenge his brother (who remained dead) would have had more belivebility. Savage then could be hunting Obi-Wan and be part of a arch for three episodes. But, bringing back Darth Maul with machine legs is too Vaderesque and something that I argue only children who loved the character would have thought of.

 

I think your idea could have worked, but I personally like it the way it is. As people have already stated, I don't think Dooku really would have fitted the role in TPM, there was just something about Darth Maul they made him fit so well in TPM. But I do agree it would have been nice to see a Count Dooku cameo in TPM.... That way we have a little backstory.

 

I don't think Maul is needed at all and I certainly think he works much better in TPM only. TCW did him no favours. For me he died at Naboo and that's it.

 

He could have been an interesting alternative to Count Dooku's character. Maul survives being cut in half during Phantom Menace to become the cyborg he ultimately does or gets clone limbs. He works behind the scenes to manipulating star systems from seceding from the Republic and gets beheaded by Anakin in ROTS.

 

I'd prefer seeing Dooku's back story. Maul is rather dull.

 

Cush, you're baiting me for likes now.

Dooku just seems like a much more sinister and capable villain. A man driven by rage is only so menacing, but a man who is driven to change the world about him because he feels, or perhaps even more dangerous, knows it is right is far more frightening.

... or perhaps I've watched too many Hammer Films.

 

I am not.

 

Lucas should have had Maul survive until Episode III. Dooku should have just been the rebellious Jedi and leader of the Separatists that hopes to bring down the corrupt Republic, but at the same time having no connection to the Sith.

 

^ That. Dooku didn't need to be Sith at all.

 

Exactly.