PT Was Darth Maul really Necessary?

This. This this this. Yes. That would have, perhaps, been even better. There would have been no moral lens through which Dooku was automatically seen then.

 

You still see enough of Dooku's face, white hair, gray beard. and he raises a Red Lightsaber to his face. Christopher Lee has a well known face. You also see the full figure of Dooku with Obi-Wan. White hair, tall and wears a cape. We see the same white haired, tall, caped person using a Red Lightsaber. In the Theatrical trailer we see Dooku's face very clearly when he talks to Obi-Wan and we have seen a white haired figure with a Red Lightsaber. Putting all that together isn't hard at all. So the trailers DO give away Dooku being a Sith.

The TF caused problem for the Republic and they were controlled by Sidious. Now the seps are causing problems for the Republic. Notice the pattern here? And again the crawl makes Dooku sound shady, the trailers show that he is a Sith and Padme accuses him of trying to murder her.
On Naboo, they say that if threatened the seps will turn to the Commerce Guild for help. The TF is also brought up. The TF we know worked with the Sith in TPM, so another reason to think the seps are Sith pawns.
Then there is the clone army. Supposedly ordered by a Jedi but said Jedi is dead and according to Obi-Wan, was already dead when the army was ordered. Then we see that Jango, the template, runs to Dooku. A former Jedi, who could have posed as Sifo-Dyas and deleted the Kamino file.
So even before we hear that Dooku is this Tyrannus, we have reason to suspect he had a hand in this. So the republic is getting an army, though they don't know it, and the seps are building an army.
Dooku is behind the latter and could be involved in the former. Not the actions of a good guy but fits hand in glove with a Sith.

Sorry, but Dooku being a Sith and the seps being Sith pawns isn't much of a surprise. It is telegraphed miles ahead. Trailers, the actor, the name, the opening crawl, Padme's words.
In short we have loads of reasons to think he is up to no good and practically none to doubt it.

Had he been in TPM and showed to be a good person, one that cared about people and was against the corruption in the Senate. And if the seeds of the seps had been in TPM. THEN there would have been a much better mystery and the audience would have reason to wonder whose side Dooku really is. And his turn would then be a big surprise.

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Obi-Wan flat out calls him a traitor. He knows that Dooku was behind the attempts on Padme's life.
So that at least makes him an accessory to murder. Obi-Wan also knows that Dooku plans to attack the Republic with his big army. A Republic that have no defenses other than the Jedi. This will kill many people. And Dooku did not seem like a person who is forced into using violence and used this as a last resort. He seemed eager and almost looked forward to unleashing his army on the Jedi and the Republic.
So an accessory to murder and plans to start a war and attack an army-less Republic. Hardly the actions of a good person. Dooku telling Obi-Wan about Sidious only comes across as him messing with Obi-Wans head. His "offer" doesn't come across as genuine, the Qui-Gon relation comes out of nowhere, too late and falls totally flat.

In AotC I think there is an ATTEMPT to blur the lines with Dooku but I don't think it works.
But again I must ask, why would Dooku being in TPM weaken this blurring?

You argue that had Dooku been in TPM then it would have given the mystery away.
Why?
If we see that he is a good Jedi, a good friend to Qui-Gon and one that opposes the corruption in the senate. Then in AotC we would think that he might still be a good guy based on what we saw earlier.

As it is now, AotC tells us that he is an ex-Jedi that left for reasons unknown. We don't know him, we haven't seen him before and what little we do see and hear makes him sound like a bad guy. And when we finally see him, surprise, he is a bad guy.
Had Obi-Wan met him before and seen the friendship between him and Qui-Gon, he might have wondered about Dooku's true allegiance. And Dooku's "offer" would then have much more weight behind it. We, the audience, could actually consider that Obi-Wan might actually join him.
But alas, wasted potential.

In closing, why would showing Dooku as good person and a good Jedi spoil the surprise that he turned in Aotc? To me, it would only make the surprise all the more powerful.

Ex. in Indy IV, there is this person. Mac. He starts as a friend to Indy but quickly betrays him. That betrayal felt rather empty. We haven't seen this guy before so him double-crossing Indy has little impact. Then later in the film he tries to get back on Indy's good side by saying that him betraying him before was just an act. But that too falls flat as we have no history with this guy and no reason to think he is genuine. And we quickly see that he is still a traitor. To me, that character fell totally flat.
Imagine that instead it had been Sallah. That would have made a big difference. We know this character and when he betrays Indy it would be more shocking. Or take Indy III and the character of Elsa. We spent some time with her, saw her and Indy face several dangers together and then she betrays him. That worked a lot better, not a huge surprise but effective.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes Dooku could have worked very well just a renegade Jedi. One that tries to do the right thing but was played by the Sith.

Say that Dooku is in TPM, we see him as a good person and one who is against the corrupt senate.
We also have some rumblings of separatists, that some systems are unhappy with the senate and feels that their interests aren't being looked after. The Senate is largely run by big corporations, like the TF and rich core worlds. The more remote worlds have little influence.
At films end Dooku tries to get the JC to act, both when it comes to the Sith but also the corrupt and ineffective Senate. They don't listen so he leaves.
In AotC he leads the seps that are mostly made up of more remote worlds and they want to leave but the Senate refuses. The Senate are in part backed by corporate armies so the seps are the ones who builds a clone army in self-defense. Padme is now faced with a quandary, Naboo were abandoned by the Senate and left to fend for themselves. So many on Naboo are sympathetic towards the seps. Padme can see that point but still thinks the republic can be saved.
Dooku meanwhile wants to leave in peace but things go wrong and a shooting war starts.
Dooku is not a Sith but there is a Sith in the seps but one that keeps hidden.
Then in ep III, Dooku learns the truth, that Palpatine is really a Sith and how cruelly he has been played. So he makes an all out attack on Coruscant to kill Palpatine. He manages to get to Palpatine's office but Anakin is there and they fight.
Dooku tries to plead with Anakin, that Palpatine is the villain but Anakin won't hear of it. And he kills him.
This could make Dooku a very tragic figure, he tried to do the right thing but Palpatine played him.

Just some ideas.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The thing is that Lucas didn't want to go that route. He was establishing a story that he believed in and left Dooku's story to the EU and subsequently the cartoons. Dooku was just a tool like Maul. He was only there to get Anakin to kill him in cold blood.

 

This is quite interesting. Do you have sources you could cite? I'm curious

 

It's covered in the various making of books and art of books as well as other places.

Both the Ventress angle and to a lesser degree the Anakin hunts Dooku.

 

Lucas should have had Maul survive until Episode III. Dooku should have just been the rebellious Jedi and leader of the Separatists that hopes to bring down the corrupt Republic, but at the same time having no connection to the Sith.


Dunno if I agree with that to be honest

simply because we would never have seen Dooku's elegance with a lightsaber, the way that character moves his blade is pure awesomness

 

Wow. There some really great ideas and points made here. Though I do think that Maul and Dooku have potentials as villains, and it's hard to choose between one, I do think only one should have existed.
There's really no "good" villain in the prequels....Darth Maul is cool and he definitely builds up suspense as bad guy/mysterious villain throughout Phantom Menace. However, as stated before, he doesn't really do anything before he dies.
Same with Dooku, he's mentioned in passing at the beginning of Clones where we learn a few things about him but then he disappears completely from all mention only to show up at the end as the leader of the CIS. And as a villain...what's he do that's bad? Then, after only a handful of scenes, he dies and is replaced by Grievous...

So I guess if we had ONE villain to fear/hate in the prequels it would have been better....whether the villain was more a cold, calculating politician like Dooku, a silent killer like Maul or a bit a of a wacko like Grievous.

 

Wow, never ceases to amaze me how often my boys' characters are described as 'cold, calculating'. I honestly don't get where anyone reads that from.

 

He's pretty cold about how Obi-Wan, Padme, and Anakin are about to be torn apart by wild beasts in the arena.

 

You think so?

 

And when Gunray starts reacting angrily over how they've gotten out of their chains, Dooku's response is: "Patience. She will die."

 

I suppose I can see how some may interpret that as 'cold' but I simply have seen that bit as rather indifferent he doesn't seem invested in it at all.

 

Dooku is a rather unique Sith Lord. He offers Obi-Wan a chance to join him on Geonosis, instead of killing him outright. He doesn't deliver a killing blow to either Obi-Wan or Anakin on Geonosis after he cuts off Anakin's arm, and only threatens them in order to escape. Additionally, Dooku offers to spare the lives of the Jedi in the arena, a chance that Maul, Vader or Sidious would not have offered. Dooku was an enigma in AOTC, just as darth-sinister has said. He was as interesting as the other Sith in the Saga and had his own unique role to play.

 

Vader acts the same way toward Luke, in TESB.

 

Why? So far, no one has presented a relevant reason why Darth Maul should have survived until Episode III. Not one. This is why whenever I encounter one of these "Darth Maul should have survived until Episode III" argument, I cannot help but roll my eyes.

 

I'll give you three reasons why people might have wanted darth Maul to survive until Episode 3

take them or leave them

1. Darth Maul is cool man, I wanted more acrobatics and double bladed lightsabers and ****.

a lot of people like Maul, he's flashy and there isn't really another villain like him in the whole saga. He represents the aggressive Sith, he is the epitome of what Yoda says "fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate" people wanted to see that.

If Yoda had said "smart and calm old guys with British accents leads to the dark-side" I doubt anyone would've cared as much to his early demise. And lets face it neither Dooku or Palps really fits the above criteria for the Sith wanted poster...

2. To some (I imagine) it cheapens Anakin's fall having a Jedi already corrupted by Palpatine, Lucas wanted to show "that Jedi can fall to the Sith" well great..but isn't that what episode 3 is about? we really didn't need a precursor to Anakin's fall, even it's poetry and it rhymes or whatever else.

3. It makes for a more interesting character in Dooku for him not to be sith.

He's been a Jedi for years, decides the government in which the Jedi serve is corrupt, leaves Jedi order to join a corrupt guy making the government even more corrupt then it was...which makes Dooku's intentions erratic and illogical.

 

Wow, I look forward to Skyping you over that, mate it sounds like you just knocked Dooku pretty harshly there.

 

Ole' hornhead was sooooo much cooler on TCW. I would have loved to see more episodes devoted to his rise to power in the gangster society

 

I've never had a problem with Maul or how he was used. Maul can be summed up as a Millennium of Sith anger, Sith rage, Sith revenge. He was violent, looked evil, looked violent. He was the hammer that Sidous needed at the time to give the Jedi a whack and shock the hell out of them. When Maul is killed, and Palpatine needed a new apprentice, he didn't need another hammer, he needed a scalpel. Someone precise, and smart. Someone exact. Someone that could play both sides and with some legit standing in the Galaxy. So I don't have a problem with how either character was used because they were used for different reasons.

What does surprise me is that people either didn't catch on, or forgot that Dooku did not leave the Jedi Order because of his political beliefs. That was the lie that he told the Jedi as to why he left. Don't forget that Kamino was erased from the Archives, which only a Jedi could have done. It was Dooku that erased Kamino from the Jedi Archives under direction from Sidious, which means he could only have done it when he was still a Jedi. Thus he had to do it before he left the Order, thus he was a Sith or on his way to becoming a Sith before he left.

 

.....That's exactly what "cold" means in this context.

Dooku clearly turned before he officially left the Order, but the impetus for his fall to the dark side was his disillusionment with the Republic, I think. The way I saw it based on what was said and shown in the movies, I got the impression that Dooku's story about Nute Gunray coming to him and telling him about being betrayed by Darth Sidious was actually true. Dooku further learned from Gunray that this Darth Sidious was in control of the corrupt Senate, and, all his worst fears being confirmed, set out on his own to root out the Sith and save the Republic. Of course, Dooku eventually found the Sith he was looking for, but somehow came to believe that the only way to save the Republic from the Sith was to become a Sith Lord himself and use the powers of the dark side to reform the galactic government in his own image.

As a side note, I imagine that Sidious simply used Gunray as bait to lure Dooku to him. In truth, Gunray never stopped being loyal to Sidious, which explains why he's once again knowingly taking orders from him in Episode III.

 

I agree with a couple things you said. I agree that Dooku was unhappy with the corruption in the Senate, and that unhappiness was part of how he was turned. It's easy to believe that a disenfranchised Jedi would be an easier target for Sidious rather than one that is caught up in the ideology of the Jedi Order. However, what I have a hard time believing is the part that, and to use Ki Adi's words, that Dooku is a "political idealist". I have a hard time wrapping my head around the possibility that Dooku was acting in the best interests of the Republic, and that he was just misguided in his vision.

I tend to think that while there was some good in Dooku before he turned, I have to believe he was morally corrupt even before his turn to the darkside. I believe this because a political idealist who has the Republics interests at heart (misguided as they may be) doesn't start off his vision of change by trying to kill off Senators that actually share his same ideal of what the Republic should be. Dooku's agreeing to kill Padme, at the behest of Gunray, all to start a war that will rip the Republic apart, kill millions, and ravage worlds, is a total 180 from what we would expect from a Jedi or a Political Idealist for that matter. From what we see in AOTC he doesn't seem conflicted at all about this. I mean, yes he was unhappy with the corruption in the Senate, but is that enough to turn him to the Dark Side? That's why I think Dooku was morally corrupt before his turn. I would bet that if Lucas ever wrote Dooku's back story we would find some instances of very questionable decision making on the part of Dooku while a Jedi in the Order. To go from a Political Idealist that wants to fix the Republic, to murdering Senators, innocents, and starting a galactic war seems a large leap. There has to be something more in Dooku's motives, something that bridges that gap. I think that something more is he himself is power hungry and will stop at nothing to get it. That is why he tried to tempt Obi Wan with a mix of lies and truth. Dooku wanted Obi Wan's help in over throwing Sidous so that Dooku could have all the power, and not share it with Sidious. That even if he succeeded in killing Sidious, I see Dooku still continuing the plan to rip the galaxy apart so he could rule, rather than trying to fix it.

I just don't hold Dooku up on the pedestal that some have (not saying you do either).

 

I just looked at it as Jedi belief and propaganda is all. It doesn't mean its true.

 

I agree that by the time we meet him in Episode II, Dooku's motives were no longer pure, certainly. But I think he probably started out that way, more or less. I think he may have been very similar to Anakin, in that he truly wanted what was best for the people but was at the same time sympathetic to arguments for authoritarian shortcuts to prosperity. So when he discovered the power that he could have at his disposal if he pledged himself to Sidious, he decided it was worth it, but was quickly corrupted beyond all recognition of his previous ideals. I think he was still a "political idealist", in the sense that he still believed that he was serving the Sith purely as a means to reform the government, even if the truth was that he was really in it for his own aggrandizement. I think that he was okay with murdering reformists like Padme because he didn't really think they were on his side; as he said to Padme in the AOTC deleted scene, he thought the Republic was too broken to be reformed by traditional means. Anyone who tried would just be prolonging the Republic's extended death throes. Of course, the fact that he was willing to resort to political assassination and conspiracy on a vast scale in order to achieve his aims shows that Dooku's "ideals" had become rotten even beyond his preference for violent revolution over peaceful democratic reform.

As a side note, I think Dooku's thought processes in this regard explain why he was so surprised when Sidious betrayed him. Dooku thought he was playing Sidious the whole time, taking advantage of his Sith teachings for the purpose of wiping out the Republic and replacing it with something more stable. But really, Sidious was playing him, making Dooku think he was being clever when the reality was that Dooku had become a slave to the Sith.

I think Dooku is a complex character, but I certainly don't put him up on a pedestal. He was wrong about the solution to corruption in the Senate and his methods were thoroughly evil. But I think he's an interesting character study in political idealism gone wrong.

 

Just want to say that Dooku did not share the same belief as Padme. They both wanted to reform the Republic, but into vastly different things.

Padme believed in democracy and peace and wanted the Republic to be free of corruption. Dooku also wanted to rid the Republic of corruption, but he intended to do so by replacing the Senate with a government that would rule, not negotiate. Democracy was Padme's cause, Dooku opposed it due to it's perceived weakness. Dooku let Padme be sentenced to death because he had no use for her. After all, he had no idea that Palpatine wanted to turn Anakin to the Dark Side to replace Dooku.