CT Was Darth Vader Basically Depressed Through Out The OT

Ah, so "sadness" equates depression now. I think I am finished here.

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I remember reading a great novel that told the all the films through the eyes of Anakin/Vader. He did seem very sad over what he has done but wouldn't say he was 100% depressed. Maybe just a little. I'm not sure if that book is canon anymore but it's a really good read.

 

What makes Vader compelling is that he's a mixture of different emotions. He is cold and barbaric, but also sad, lonely, and other things. In spite of how mechanical he is, he's actually quite emotional deep down. Just one of those paradoxes that make him an excellent character.

 

This line started me thinking. Anakin never really liked the Jedi Order. He wasn't taken as a baby and indoctrinated like the rest of the Order, so he doesn't have that unswerving loyalty. This is why Yoda didn't want him trained. From the first encounter, the Jedi treated Anakin like a scientific specimen to examine - hardly the heroic knights he dreamed would come and liberate his fellow slaves. AOTC Anakin is shown to be aggravated by this lack of action in his and Obi-Wan's uncomfortable disagreement in Padme's living room, but what other option does he have? This is a person who wants to get things done, and with only a Jedi education, he would have little chance outside the Order to do so. When he kills the Jedi, I don't think he sees friends, but a group of people so entrenched in their dogma that they need to go.

He is friends with Palpatine because he sees a man who shares his views of wanting to get things done and doesn't treat him like an outsider. Instead of half-heartedly letting him join, Palpatine eagerly recruits him to the dark side even promising to help him prevent his nightmares from coming true. (Something Obi-Wan just blew off out of hand.) But, by the end of ROTS, Anakin is exactly where he was before - a slave. However, his hatred fuels his strength in the dark side and he still has power in the galaxy. So by ANH we have Vader who still thinks he's doing what he was doing as a Jedi, just with one Master instead of a Council of them. I think he actually enjoys using what power he has - he is so corrupted by the dark side. When he learns of Luke Skywalker and begins hunting for him - THIS is where the conflict begins. He believes he is tracking down a way to finally get the upper hand. However, what he doesn't realize is the effect his son will have upon him. Luke would rather die than join his father and get more power. This messes with Vader's worldview. To Vader, his was an offer he would NEVER have refused; something he once dreamed the Jedi would offer and that Palpatine was offering him all those years ago.

By the time of ROTJ, Vader was doing some serious self-reassessment. His talk with Luke cracks him even more. This is not self-righteous Obi-Wan throwing platitudes at him. Luke isn't trying to kill him. Vader knows that Obi-Wan would have told Luke to kill him. Vader knows Luke isn't following the old Jedi way; that, in fact, he's his mother's son. Vader begins to see that his son offers the freedom he has wanted his entire life. When Luke faces his own anger and rejects it, Vader sees a different kind of strength. Once again, Luke would rather die than accept an offer his father couldn't resist. Vader sees a new hope in Luke - something he decides he will give his life for. This is when he becomes the Chosen One - he sees Luke, the path balanced between the old Jedi Order and the Sith - and ensures the survival of that hope.

Overall, I don't see Anakin's life simply defined by whether or not he was "depressed". He certainly struggled with depression after his wife's death, but his character is too complex for labels. It's one of the reasons I love Star Wars so much.

 

That last bit is stellar, Tardis. I wish more fans would relax about all the lame boxing and labelling and appreciate nuance and complexity more.

 

*must get the image of Vader in his chamber taking down his Fluoxetine's with a glass of water, out of my head*

 

Well ... I must be another maverick of a nut suggesting this BUT I thought ALL 4 of the options were feasible at once and I actually voted ALL 4 given:

1.) Yes, he was, and felt regrets for everything he had done.

Consider the fact how Anakin - his heart was actually in the right place - well with the Light Side of the Force and he did care about his friends and beloved Padme and such BUT he was just mislead and confused and emotionally vulnerable - particularly the moment he had to leave Shmi Skywalker ... PLUS the pain of the evil well nasty things Palpatine made him do - consider at times in ROTS when he wept and where he was FORCED to do it - on promise of saving Padme when Palpatine never 'gave a Force' about anything related to saving Padme ...and also where the fall of Mace Windu where he went 'what have I done?!' Then the fact how when Luke was suffering at the hands of Palpatine ... he was pleading with Anakin to protect and save him ... and Anakin decided he's done too much damage BUT NO MORE ... so NO ONE ELSE IS DYING ... NOR SHOULD THEY BE 'FORCED' TO DIE!

2.) No, he simply did not care.

Whilst Anakin did love those he cared about; then again consider how people can become cold-hearted and emotionally numb and dead after suffering a mentally traumatic event and depression and also conflict here and there ... and consider how much Anakin was subject to but also the fact the moment he realized he had lost Padme when he had 'killed her in his anger' and left without much choice now and then he had to follow Palpatine for the next 2 decades more or less ... and the fact consider how by the time of even ROTS then - until ROTJ Master Yoda remarked to Obi-Wan Kenobi 'gone was the boy you knew ... killed by Darth Vader he was...' and if you think about it in films and such - even with the bad guys once they've lost everything, they've lost their closest ones, ran out of resources and money, are close to losing it ... what have they got to lose? Hence apathy could happen ... I mean look at Gladiator 2000 where Russell Crowe's Maximus was momentarily Nihilistic after being betrayed, nearly executed, wounded, and finding out his family were but dead and he is reduced to being a Gladiator and a Slave...though with help he was able to saddle up again somewhat...

3.) Yes, but not because of things like killing the jedi, but more because of Padme, and the suit

Why ofc! Well Padme was practically the heart-and-soul of Anakin himself and his everything practically ... once she was gone ... and consider also how General Grievous would have also felt when he was reconstructed piece by piece in a sense - consider too how General Grievous also wanted the best for his people BUT also when he lost his significant other and where he nearly died in the EU in the shuttle crash hence also when he was told of the fact 'THE JEDI DID THIS! THE JEDI ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR NEAR DEMISE!' and having to adapt to the cybernetic implants and with Anakin - the fact you're nearly half-baked in the shores and fires of Mustafar ... enough said ... and consider the fact how he was somewhat 'wasted potential...' one way or another ...

4.) He was in denial

Well - consider when he joined the Sith - at first no doubt he would have still been shaky and uneasy about his commitment to Palpatine BUT considering Palpatine's false promises and assurances - Anakin didn't really have much of a choice and hence he got killed by his Darth Vader persona mentally in a sense and hence also how he would have felt as long as Palpatine was there to reassure him - he had no fault on his own and he had only Palpatine to answer to for his actions in Order/Protocol 66 ... and the fact how when Anakin was adamant at first how Padme was alive as 'he had felt it!' even though it was to be otherwise ... and the fact how he would have felt his actions were 'for the best' and at first no doubt when Luke tried to persuade him that he could be redeemed - it wasn't until the final confrontation on the Death Star II ...

 

He wasn't conflicted due to his prior acts, I've never seen that indicated anywhere in the novels. He was mainly conflicted due to not wanting to kill his son, and Palpatine wanting to use Luke likely conflicted him as well. While it's never been all that clear I've just never seen any evidence that he was remorseful for what he had done as Vader, as its quite clear that its his son that turned him back not any sense of guilt.

 

There are some who say that Vader had a personality disorder. I think it was borderline personality disorder or something. Personally, I'd say that diagnosis was served up apologize for the bad dialogue in the prequels, though quite a few of the ideas were good. (The diagnosis cheapens things a bit, I'd say.) I can see why he comes off as more "mechanical" in ANH, more ambitious and frightening in TESB, and more frightened, vulnerable, desperate, and redeeming in ROTJ. But it's all the same man. Darth Vader is a character of literature. This is probably why Star Wars' popularity will never die as long as we have nuanced fiction. As much as we complain about the overly simplistic things in some of the movies and EU stories, we gotta admit that it's this tragic dude who first got us intrigued with ideas like this in the first place.

 

I think kind of similar to someone who kind of goes off the deep end after losing someone they love and being completely devastated by it, Vader knew why this all came about but was filled with so much hate and anger at how he lost everything that all he had left was hatred for all the galaxy. Luke being his son helped him recover from that, since he could then see hope still-in the fact that his family is not completely gone. Luke was a part of Padme, a part of his past. And I believe over time he began realizing that all was not infact lost, after all...

 

I think that's a great point. Wish I had thought of it that way. Intuitively speaking, I tried to express something similar on another thread in the CT or Saga section. Luke not only helped show him what he could have been, but Luke was showing him what Padme, Obi-Wan, and others were trying to show him. I think part of it was due to how filled with anguish Vader was for having lost everything. The extreme torture and suffering of his suit and cybernetics represent what is going on inside his heart. It all goes to show that Anakin/Vader never learned to deal with his emotions in a healthy way as Luke later would. I imagine that Ahsoka might try to convey some of this concept of imbalance to him in Rebels, though I doubt she'll be successful, and I can only imagine Vader or Palpatine killing her, giving Vader something else to ruminate over. Sad for ppl like me.

Vader has a tremendous amount of guilt for what he's done and been involved in, but the only way he can cope with it is to deny it and focus on his own perverted view of justice for the galaxy. This is a concept in the Adlerian affect psychology lesson of the Compass of Shame. Each and every one of us on this planet has insecurity or shame we have trouble dealing with. If we cannot deal with our insecurity and shame by focusing on what we do have and what we can accomplish in a healthy way, we "attack other," "withdraw," "avoid," or "attack self." (It can be one of these, or it can be more than one, including all four at once.) I think Vader is doing a lot of "attack other" and "avoiding," but he's doing some of the other two by removing his responsibility and conscience from the equation. It just goes to show much he had thought about things and felt when he finally let what Luke was trying to help him with finally sink in.

So, that's why I think the notion of him being in denial mixed in with these other things makes the most sense. It's a really terrifying, sad, gothic concept if you think about it, however. The man hated himself intensely, and he used his position in the Empire to take it out on everyone else. I do think Lucas deserves more credit than he's been given in some ways for making Anakin and Vader more consistent. Anakin was always shown to be very impatient and self-centered, and Vader is no different, especially from what we see in TESB. He has no patience for failure or ineptitude. Truly, in some ways, he sounds like Emily Bronte's Heathcliff, a guy who is extremely vengeful and looking for revenge for things that have long passed. It goes to show how his feelings were awakened by what Luke was doing for him, and that's why we feel sorry for him. He was very passionate and intelligent, and he could have poured all this into something better than what he chose. Sadly, when terrible things happen to us, all some of us can think about is revenge and punishing others, and Luke helped Anakin/Vader to understand that there is something stronger than that.

 

I wish a couple more EU books had been written that went deeper into Vader's state of mind over the years. I thought the Episode III novelization was an amazing read, and representative of how Palpatine's manipulation of Anakin should have been focused on in Episode III (and Episode II for that matter). The Rise of Darth Vader started out promising depicting Vader in a funk coming to grips with his new reality in the immediate aftermath of Episode III but didn't go as deep over the course of the book as i'd have liked.

 

Yes.

 

I love this discussion. I've always found Vader's repressed emotions most evident in this one ROTJ scene. One of my favorites:


LUKE: Your thoughts betray you, father. I feel the good in you...the conflict.
VADER: There is no conflict.


Vader has gone all these years denying his identity as Anakin Skywalker (the representation of goodness) and finally when someone actually confronts him head-on about it, it's none other than his son he never knew. Luke has all the thoughts Vader has avoided, and they're amplified even more by their special relationship. When Vader says "there is no conflict", his tone is distressed and almost apologetic. Like he's telling Luke he now realizes his wrongdoing and his regret thereof, but the fact of the matter is that this is his identity and there's no turning back for him.


LUKE: You couldn't bring yourself to kill me before, and I don't believe you'll destroy me now.
VADER: You underestimate the power of the dark side. If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny.


By saying this, and throwing his saber at Luke, we see Vader's exact conflict he had just tried to deny. He initially responds to Luke with a calm melancholy, but it's once Luke challenges his allegiance to evil (what he had come to believe was his whole identity) that he snaps in order to prove himself and put an end to... well, the conflict. Kill his own son, and surely then the name of Skywalker would never haunt him again. Right?

Just... Beautiful to watch unfold.

 

Internal conflict does not make you depressed, though. You can be conflicted without suffering a condition.

 

I'll just leave this here.

 

I'm a believer Vader realised he was played like a fiddle but had little choice but to embrace his new life with vigor. Luke represented a possible out for him, which he found exciting.

 

Darth Vader throwing himself a pity party because of Amidala. Really?

I dare to say that he knew her well enough to realize that she wouldn't want to be near him because of the things he did (e.g. Jedi temple massacre). She would have rejected him for what he did and had become, if he wasn't aware of that than he was utterly naive and unrealistic. Know thyself and the inevitable consequences for your actions.

I believe that every human being needs a sense of purpose, whether that purpose is good or bad is irrelevant. Watching Vader's failures in the OT makes me wonder how much he was aware that he had lost his self-given purpose:

1. Learn the location of the hidden Rebel base from Leia - failure
2. Retrieve the stolen Death Star plans - failure
3. Shoot down Luke Skywalker before he could destroy the Death Star - failure
4. Catch Luke Skywalker on Yavin IV - failure
5. Ensure that Admiral Ozzel performs competently - failure
6. Catch Luke Skywalker on Hoth - failure
7. Catch the Millennium Falcon - failure
8. Make Lando Calrissian stick to their contract - failure
9. Catch Luke Skywalker in Cloud City and turn him to the dark side - failure
10. Catch the Millennium Falcon before it jumps into hyperspace - failure

Certainly, by the time of ROJ he must have come to terms that he was really a rather inefficient bad guy.
So here comes Luke, offering him a way out and what does he do? He rejects the offer (failure again).

Finally, at the end of ROJ he does something that does not constitute failure.

 

I wouldn't say Vader was depressed. From reading certain canon novels and getting a look into the psychology of the man behind the formidable mask, we understand that he embraced his new life and felt he was in unison with his suit and used his rage to fuel him; this was from the 'Lords of the Sith' novel. The light side did very occasionally call to him. The only time Vader did have conflicting thoughts and was in an emotional state was upon meeting Luke in ROTJ.

 

I agree. But he didn't enjoy it.

 

Definitely. I feel he would change certain things if he was in a position to do so.

 

Yeah, personally I think Vader was pretty resigned to his situation until the end of ROTJ. I have an essay kicking around in my head about this that I'll write if I ever get around to it. Basically, I think there was a little learned helplessness going on with Vader between ROTS and ROTJ (This requires much more explanation, but in a nutshell: he learned his limits and he was taught byeveryone that you can't come back from what he did. So there we are.). Probably a healthy dose of guilt and shame. Depression? Well, maybe sometimes, but I think he was pretty twisted by that point, he would have either run from any depressed feelings (usually into anger) or fought them (anger again). A very common symptom of depression in males is anger and lack of feeling. I think that's plausible with Vader. If anyone here is familiar with the psychological theory of attachment, analyzing Vader's entire life from that perspective is truly tragic. Perhaps I will expand on this later when I feel inspired.

 

I remember reading that book on Vader which takes place right after ep.3. He has a small talk with Palpatine about instead of just dying/suicide he wanted to keep living as a sith to gain more power which I thought was a good reasoning as any for Vader's continued purpose in life i.e. like the jedi, being a sith is a way of life for these cults/orders. So by the time of ESB he's still scheming on how to overthrow the emperor with luke and rule the galaxy. Then in ROTJ, he's conflicted and "depressed".

 

Nawww, poor widdle Vader had his limbs snipped off & has to wear a nasty suit to breathe!

Seriously though, I don't think he was depressed at all in the time of the OT. He was consumed by the DS & enjoyed the power he wielded. IMO he took perverse satisfaction from enforcing his will on others. When Luke came along he wasn't depressed either. In fact it gave him hope & belief that he could corrupt Luke & have him as an ally to overthrow Palpatine. Thereby grabbing even more power. We saw how driven he was in ESB. Only in RotJ did he become conflicted. Not depressed though.

 

Darth Downunder wrote

In fact it gave him hope & belief that he could corrupt Luke & have him as an ally to overthrow Palpatine.

In simpler words, if I may, it gave him a clear sense of purpose.

In ANH his purpose was to a) find the hidden Rebel base and b) retrieve the stolen Death Star plans.

In ESB it was his purpose to a) find the new hidden Rebel base and b) Luke Skywalker (although that could be debated what had top priority, one discovery led to the other)

In ROJ it was his purpose...to make sure that the second Death Star was completed on schedule. By that time the Emperor had taken over to plot and execute his scheme for setting up a trap for the Alliance.

Vader had pretty much lost his earlier purposes, that certainly made him think about a thing or two...