Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. ZamWesell44 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    fluke? 2 times, no Dooku shot lighting, and only Anakin at full power could beat him. Anakin would have beat Maul in a few seconds.
  2. sabarte Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    re: Dooku's retirement

    Dooku doesn't seem to be pursuing immortality canonically or in the EU. Christopher Lee mentions Dooku's past his prime in ROTS. Perhaps he wanted to be replaced (he knows Palpatine wants to turn Anakin in some vague apprentice-like capacity) so he could go grow roses, force-lightning the darn kids that won't get off his lawn, and write snarky letters to the editor...and stop worrying about running half the galaxy. :)


    re: apprentices

    EU-wise there's at least one other he trained in the Order(Komari Vosa), and the phrasing in Labyrinth of Evil implies one or two additional ones. Dooku was a knight and Master for 50 years, remember. Plus, there's the numerous unofficial apprentices after he left like Sev'rance Tann, Quinlan Vos, and Sora Bulq - all of them former Jedi Masters, though Sev'rance (a "Dark Jedi Master") may not actually have been part of the Order. Also Clone Wars' Asajj Ventress, of course, and Grievous, who doesn't really count. Canon sources indicate Dooku was known to outspar Mace in the Order, and an EU confrontation between Dooku and Mace post-AOTC ended in victory for Dooku.

    But yeah, Sidious would own him.

    re: power, Dooku, and Maul

    I think Dooku has the same potential as Maul, suited Vader, and probably Kenobi. It's just that he's reached his full potential over the years, and he's also an intelligent fighter who will cheat shamelessly when he has to. That's what gives him his edge, not his raw power, but his skill and finesse in using it and his experience in fighting. And his apparent ability to land a force-push on anyone.
  3. joshuavance Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    That's one of the most common misperceptions on these boards. Just because they didn't do it in the films doesn't mean they can't do it. Maul was enjoying the physicality of his fight with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, he had been looking forward to it.

    I'm only telling you what the man said.

    The three apprentices were equal, but focused on different aspects.

    Maul was physical,
    Dooku was tactical,
    Vader shrewd

    When you put all 3 together you got Uber Mustafar Vader, on his way to being twice as powerful as Yoda and Sidious.

    Obi-Wan put a halt to that plan. And made Vader like the other two apprentices.
  4. brook_33 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    I agree. Couldn't have said it better myself.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Sidious is stronger than Tyrannus, mainly because Sidious is pure evil and much more skilled in the ways of the Dark Side than Dooku.
  6. sithreaper Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2004
    star 3
    Its all as clear as day on screen

    Palpatine vs Dooku

    There knowledge of the force is the same (aka they can both use lightning ect). 1-1

    Palpatine has more raw power (his lightning has more power, he can probably lift bigger objects & he go see the future more clearly). 2-1

    As swordsman it?s really close but I would give a slight advantage to Palpatine. 3-1


    Palpatine vs Maul

    Palpatine has superior knowledge of the force. 1-0

    Palpatines raw power is greater 2-0

    Palpatine is probably a slightly better lightsaber duelist (but Maul is a better warrior). 3-0



    Palpatine vs Vader (uninjured)

    Palpatine has superior knowledge of the force 1-0

    Vaders raw power is greater 1-1

    As swordsman there on level pegging (with Anakin been the better all around warrior) 2-2



    Palpatine vs Vader (injured)

    Their knowledge of the force is the same (however Vader can?t use force lighting due to his injury?s) giving Palpatine the advantage. 1-0

    Palpatines raw power is greater (due to Vader loss of Midiclorians) 2-0

    As a swordsman Palpatine is superior, (Vaders piloting skills probably make him an all around better warrior though) 3-0


    Palpatine vs Yoda

    Their Knowledge of the force is the same. 1-1

    Their Raw power is the same (Palpatine wields the darkside so advantage to him) 2 - 1

    Yoda is the slightly better duelist. 2 - 2


    Palpatine vs Mace

    Palpatine has slightly more knowledge of the force 1 - 0
    Their Raw power is roughly the same (advantage Palpatine because of the darkside) 2-1

    Mace is a better swordsman & all-round Warrior. 2-2


    Palpatine vs Kenobi

    Palpatine has superior knowledge of the force 1-0

    Palpatines raw power is more then Kenobis 2-0

    Palpatine is the better swordman then Obi Wan. (Obi Wan is the better all round warrior) 3-0


    Palpatine vs Luke

    Palpatine has superior knowledge of the force 1-0

    Lukes raw power was greater.1-1

    Palpatine is the better swordsman. (Luke is the better all round warrior) 2-1


    If you use the scale

    The super powerful - Mace ? Yoda ? Anakin (pre injury) ? Palpatine
    The Nearly super powerful ? Luke
    The very powerful - Dooku
    The Powerful - Kenobi, Vader (injured) & Maul
  7. MaceWindu_is_GOD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    First off,

    There is a reason why Dooku is the apprentice while Sidious is teh MASTER.


    True, Dooku only did lightning with one hand but Yoda blocked it easily with also one hand.

    While Sidious used both hands, Yoda with both hands still could not easily deflect it like he did with Dooku.


    ANd Dooku is not older than Sidious. As Palpatine, yes, but once he was unmasked, the real Sidious is obviously older than Tyranus.


    The popular characters power ranking

    Beginning of Ep. 1:

    1. Sidious
    2. Yoda
    3. Mace
    4. Dooku
    5. Maul
    6. Qui-Gonn
    7. Obi-Wan
    8. Anakin

    End of Ep. 1:

    1. Sidious
    2. Yoda
    3. Mace
    4. Dooku
    5. Obi-Wan
    6. Maul
    7. Qui-Gonn
    8. Anakin

    Ep. 2:

    1. Sidious
    2. Yoda
    3. Tyranus
    4. Mace
    5. Obi-Wan
    6. Anakin

    Beginning of Ep. 3:

    1. Sidious
    2. Yoda
    3. Tyranus
    4. Mace
    5. Anakin = Obi-Wan

    End of Ep. 3:

    1. Sidious
    2. Yoda
    3. Vader
    4. Tyranus
    5. Obi-Wan = Mace


    Only Sidious and Yoda are really up there.

    And don't question it coz GL has already confirmed it and narrowed it down in Premiere Magazine that Sidious and Yoda are the 2 TOUGHEST in the galaxy. While action figures also follow GL's route by printing Sidious and Yoda are the 2 MOST POWERFUL MASTERS of the Force.

    So shall it be written, so shall it be done.
  8. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    =D==D= =D= =D= =D=

    except for a few ranking in wich i slightly disagree i think this post was awesome
  9. MaceWindu_is_GOD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 3
    except for a few ranking in wich i slightly disagree i think this post was awesome

    by SithRules70



    Thanks SithRules70.


    I was just going by the movies

    In Ep. 1 Maul definitely looked more powerful than Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn taking them both and beating them both until Obi-Wan did this amazing thing making him slightly more powerful than Maul at the end.

    While Dooku was still a Jedi which means that Mace is more powerful than him for he is the 2nd most powerful in the Jedi Order.

    And little Anakin was still a civilian.

    In Ep. 2 however, Dooku became Tyranus and wiped the floor with Anakin and Obi-Wan and lasted long enough to escape from Yoda.

    "Powerful you have become Dooku, the Darkside, I sense in you."

    In the beginning of Ep. 3 Tyranus still wiped the floor with the 2 Jedi and only after Anakin used the Dark Side that he had gained power to move up in ranking against Dooku. That combined with the overconfidence of Dooku led to Ani's victory.


    Obi-Wan on the other hand, does not have Dooku's overconfidence but has the knowledge in pushing his old apprentice's buttons combined with Ani's overconfidence and poor emotional state led to the more experience Obi-Wan defeating the more powerful Vader.
  10. Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    All interesting points. I do believe that Dooku was as arguably as powerful as Sidious but could not have defeated him. I would like to address a few issues:

    1. The assertion that Yoda dominated Dooku is a common mistake.

    A. Most look at the outcome of the fight to determine their answer; however, this is a flawed approach. Indeed, Dooku did flee the hanger, but one must first remember that leaving Geonosis was his intent before he fought the trio of Jedi Knights. He had to keep the Death Star plans safe at all costs. The duels with the Jedi were delaying his departure and jeopardizing his ability to leave before a legion of clone troopers invaded the hanger. He dueled Yoda to no advantage and decided enough was enough and made an exit.

    B. The duel itself is inconclusive. Yes, Yoda did handle Dooku's attempts at using the dark side to defeat him. Dooku also handled Yoda's attempt to unleash Dooku's own lightning back at him. The Sabre duel was a draw. Neither combatant gained any advantage, each parrying blow for blow. This can be distinguished from Yoda's battle with Darth Sidious in which Yoda disarmed the Dark Lord (a cut scene).

    2. Dooku was an exceptionally powerful Jedi before he ever became a Sith, but would most likely be defeated by Sidious.

    A. I have no doubt Dooku was the better swordsman than Sidious. Dooku's style was known to be the best (though Vapaad fans may disagree) at sabre dueling. Indeed, it has been said that Dooku was once the Jedi Order's best swordsman. The fact that Sidious was disarmed twice indicates that his greatest strength was most likely not in his ability with a sabre.


    B. It has been said amongst the jedi for many years, Dooku was second only to Yoda in strength. Combined with the skills he attained as a Sith Lord, he no doubt was on the same plain as any of the most powerful Jedi in the saga. Indeed, his skill sets probably made him uniquely qualified to beat Sidious in a duel as he was the only Jedi to master both sides of the force. Sidious' strength may not have been in brute force but his ability to manipulate. However, one thing remained, Dooku was afraid of Sidious (see LOE), and as Dooku told Grievous, fear and intimidation wins battles. Dooku's fear of his master would have lessened whatever advantages in sabre skill and force knowledge he may have had.

    3. The duel with Anakin is a poor study of Lord Tyranus' power.

    There has been debate as to how Anakin could defeat Dooku. Some have claimed Anakin was just stronger, others that Dooku was not giving it his all. I believe that they are both partially right.

    A. Anakin was strong; indeed, by ROTS he probably matched Dooku in raw strength. Balance that though, with the fact that Dooku was the better swordsman and had a better command of the force, both light and dark because of his years. Counter-balance that with the fact that Dooku was 83 years-old and past his prime physically. In the end, it?s almost a toss-up except one thing is wrong with the picture...Dooku never used force powers against Anakin which leads me to:

    B. Dooku was NOT fighting as if his life depended on it. He was well aware that Sidious wanted Anakin, and he also wanted to retire. Dooku knew enough to realize he could never retire until Sidious had a new apprentice. Dooku also thought he was not going to be harmed if he lost the duel. Although Sidious told him to fight as if it were a real duel, it is most likely that Dooku did hold something back because (1) he wasn't fighting for his life (or so he thought) and (2) Dooku knew that it would displease Sidious to severely harm Anakin, such as the use of dark side powers against him (like dropping a platform on him) and (3) he wanted to retire and the only way to do so was to lose. Finally, it can be said that Dooku flat out misjudged Anakin and his pride killed him.

    4. Maul and a suited Vader were as powerful as Dooku. Just plain wrong. Maul was a bruiser, not a master of the force. Indeed, Obi-Wan himself felt the difference between the two as being
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Padawan

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    May 28, 2005
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  12. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
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    I think that Dooku was somewhat less powerful than Sideous or Yoda. He fought Yoda to a standstill based on 2 things:

    1. The threat to Annakin and Obi-Wan - Yoda had to battle Dooku and protect them from crap falling on them. Knocking a pillar off balance is nothing compared to stopping it's mementum dead and picking it back up with the force.

    2. Yoda wanted to take Dooku alive much more than to kill him. They now knew that there was a Sith Master out there and Dooku was likely his apprentice - killing Dooku would result in no gained knowledge, the Jedi wanted him alive.

    I could include that Dooku also merely needed to hold Yoda off and find an opportunity to escape, much as Sideous in ROTS only needed to hold Yoda off long enough for Clone Troopers to come.

    I love the Dooku character and Christopher Lee, but he's the apprentice, is past his prime physically, has a somewhat different moral agenda, and is relatively new to the Dark Side. Dooku is also much more a tactician than Maul or Vader ever were - he executed Sideous' plans quite perfectly until he was betrayed; Genosis went exactly as planned as did Palp's kidnapping, inciting the civil war, and leading Annakin down the dark path. However, as for true Force power, Yoda and Sideous are the tops - Mace may get the charity nod for being GL's pal, but he lacks the depth of Sids or Yoda... Besides, to say there are 2 Jedi who are on par power-wise with Sideous makes me question the concept that the Dark Side could overpower the Light whatsoever. What I saw and felt in the movies would put Dooku and Mace on par with each other with Dooku being more experienced and rounded than Mace.
  13. Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    It also occurs to me that both Yoda and Dooku were most likely holding back against each other on Geonosis.

    1. Darth Witty is correct that Yoda probably did want Dooku alive. It also helps that Yoda did have an affinity for Dooku stemming from their past relationship.

    2. Dooku wasn't so interested in killing Yoda as he was getting away. He too may have had some emotional attachment to Yoda despite his Sith training (it is also obvious that as far as Sith go, Dooku was the least hateful). It is further possible that he was not to kill Yoda as Sidious needed Yoda in his grand scheme.
  14. Rossa83 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I agree to many of the things you say here... but ofcourse not all;)

    I would say that Sideous' biggest mistake was to rid himself of Dooku. Dooku would have been a much more powerful asset than suited Vader... ofcourse Palpatine could not know that Anakin would lose so badly to OBW - but he should know that Anakin/Vader was unpredictable, and had he not been injured, he would haven been to powerful for Sideous to handle.
  15. Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    I think Sidious knew Dooku was too dangerous to be left alive.

    1. Dooku knew everything about Sidious' connection with the CIS and the war.
    2. Could he trust a powerful ex-Jedi/ political leader like Dooku to behave himself in retirement?
  16. sabarte Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Eh, it was an understandable mistake - as Sidious mentioned, Dooku was old and probably nearing the end of his natural life span. 20 years older than official sources have Sidious/Palpatine as. Also a former Jedi Master, and Sidious's Jedi hatred is not rational at all. But yeah, he traded out an apprentice who could punk Obi-Wan Kenobi for one who couldn't. And also one who couldn't overthow him for one who could. Bad move.

  17. JawaStew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    Sidious would have beaten Tyranus with a saber or with the Force. Yoda would have beaten Tyranus except for him jeopardising Anakin and Obi-Wan.

    Would have been quite a show though. But I think the result would be 'conclusive'.
  18. sabarte Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I don't know - you're underestimating the role of resourcefulness in combat. Using the environment was what gave Kenobi the win over Anakin. Dooku is very resourceful, and he needed to leave right then. He accomplished what he came to do.

    I would say Yoda would take Dooku 7 or 8 times out of 10. But Dooku has a chance there.
  19. farrellg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    When Dooku delivers his Force lightning to Yoda, it isn't as strong as Sidious does it. But then again Dooku didn't use two hands either, which means he held back a little.

    I don't think Dooku was holding back. Its probably harder to shoot lightning out of two hands than one hand. Dooku seems to be incapable of using two hands for lightning because he's so much weaker than the Emperor.

    Dooku pwnd.

    This is simple. There's a reason why he's the apprentice. He gets hacked up by skywalker.


    Exactly. The Emperor is much more powerful than Dooku because he's the Master. Also, Dooku is a level 8 swordsman while the Emperor is a level 9. Gillard said there's an enormous difference between the two levels.
  20. Hypernova Jedi Youngling

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    May 29, 2005
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    The critical point here is Sidious was a proper Sith apprentice for god knows how many years.

    Plagues taught him (Sidious) all kinds of Sith knowledge over the years.

    Dooku worked under Sidious for about 10 years and the only Sith training he had was what Sidious taught him.

    I suspect Sidious didnt teach Dooku all the Sith powers he knew though.
  21. Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Exactly. The Emperor is much more powerful than Dooku because he's the Master. Also, Dooku is a level 8 swordsman while the Emperor is a level 9. Gillard said there's an enormous difference between the two levels.

    I wouldn't take much stock in that. After all, Yoda is a "nine" and Dooku faired well against him. Giilard's nonsense also contradicts everything we know of Dooku as a swordsman.

    And if Palpatine is a "nine" swordsman than he must be the lowest nine as he is disarmed twice by Mace and Yoda.
  22. mjerome3 Jedi Knight

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    May 11, 2000
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    Good point Count Tyranus. Palpatine is mighty, I give him that. But Count Dooku is was bested by Anakin, who lost to Obi-Wan, who got manhandled by Dooku twice, who gave Yoda a decent fight after facing two Jedi previous, who in fact gave Palpatine all types of problems, who couldn't beat Mace Windu, who is the senior member on the Jedi Council. Weird stuff.
  23. ZamWesell44 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    When did Gillard say Dooku is an 8, he is one of, if not the best swordsman in Star Wars, i find it hard after seeing Dooku fight Kenobi 2wice and Anakin, that he is an 8 and Mace is a 9. Kenobi is an 8, Dooku is cleary better than Kenobi.
  24. Count-Tyranus Jedi Youngling

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    Jul 7, 2005
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    Its as simple as this:

    Once jedi are powerful enough, say the level of a Mace, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Dooku, Yoda, Sidious, they are all capable of beating each other on a good day. They all may have bad days, and some get plain lucky.

    Was Dooku as physically as powerful as Sidious? Perhaps. His combination of light and dark powers and swordsmanship may have made him stronger, but Sidious' mastery of manipulation made him the strongest of all for three decades. Physical strength and ability is not everything to a Jedi as it is not everything in reality. Cunning and knowledge are just as deadly.

    Sidious was the master for a reason. He was smarter.
  25. WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4
    And his knowledge of the dark side was most likely much greater than that of Dooku's too. :)
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