Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I don't know about smarter. I think Dooku was smart, indeed he was. But he is the ultimate tragic character, almost as tragic as Anakin. We never fully realized if he was all evil, or if he in fact planned to overthrow Sideous, and bring peace to the galaxy - (wouldn't happen since he had become so twisted, but ideology wise).

    The sad thing about Dooku is that he was such an amazing Jedi, and became nothing but a brick in Palpatines game. That's sad. I wonder what Dooku could have done for the Jedi had he not turned... He is very much like Sarumann, who was decieved...
  2. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    I don't feel a lot of sympathy for Tyranus. In his fights with Obi-Wan and Anakin, he's shown to be sinister, malevolent and enjoy causing death and pain. As for his vaunted political plans, 'Tyranus' should sum that up nicely.

    While he's a somewhat mysterious character and may have been led to the Dark Side through a legitimate desire to make a difference to the corrupt galactic ruling caste, clearly a man who presides over a bloodthirsy bunch of bureaucrats, partial to having his shackled enemies executed in an arena by ravenous beasts or assassinated by bounty hunters is not running for Gandhi.
  3. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    "Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?"

    I offer this passage from Dark Lord as my answer:

    Dark Lord, pg. 123

    Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face.
    "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

    Sidious bared his teethe, but only briefly.
    "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."

    "And if you should encounter someone stronger than I am?"

    Sidious almost smiled.
    "There is none, my son, even though your body has been crippled.

    This is your destiny.

    We have seen to that.

    Together we are unconquerable."





    ***





    IMO, Dooku/Tyranus couldn't hold a candle to Sidious. Not by a long shot.
  4. Darth_SomethingWitty Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2005
    star 1
    Absolutely agreed... As much as Annakin's fall is tragic, so is Dooku's; I would even say in some ways moreso. Dooku was clearly a political and social idealist who came to realize the corruption in the senate and the indifference to change by the Jedi was leading things down a terrible path. Dooku clearly started down the path with the best of intentions in mind, and not simply for his own, selfish needs the way Annakin did. I would expect that at some point, he intially simply decided that the Jedi way was no longer his own and went out in search of a means to create what he felt to be a more ideal society. I imagine him starting the seperatist movement as a group of worlds that would forma a coalition in the Senate to try to changes things, eventually realizing that the Senate was useless and being controlled by an outside force. Along the way, he crossed paths with Palpatine who slowly warped his intents, starting by agreeing with him and pretending to be trying to work within the system, eventually explaining that a Sith controlled the Senate and that it was important somehow to take their allies and break ties with the republic for their own good. Eventually, Palpatine revealed himself as Sideous after the die was cast, the seperatists had drawn first blood somehow and Sideous likely pushed Dooku into a corner the same way he did with Annakin - forcing an instant life or death decision based on falsehoods. Finally, unable to un-ring the bell, Dooku took his place with the same initial thoughts as Annakin did - he would eventually overthrow Sideous and create the society he had been dreaming of...

    I would actually think that the fall of Dooku would make yet another great side story in the saga...
  5. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    At least by the ROTS novelization - all three combatants went into the fight pretending to be worse than they were. (why they were doing this except so Stover could babble about his idea of combat styles they don't say - it makes no sense except maybe for Dooku). Dooku is overpowering to them in this state, and they have to kick it up to their real level. Dooku is seriously stressed after that happens, and slightly wounded but manages to adapt, step it up himself, and take Kenobi out of the fight - seriously out of the fight - to focus on Anakin. And Anakin keeps getting stronger, and Dooku is lightly worried and considering the possibility he could die. But he adapts again, and hits Anakin where he's weak - psychologically. Anakin 'loses his edge' at a taunt, and Dooku is relaxing again. Relaxing. In a fight with an unsuited Anakin Skywalker. While wounded, after being hugely taxed for power and ingenuity, and taking Kenobi out.

    And then Sidious steps in, and tells Anakin what to do. Which simualtaneously gives Anakin his focus back and totally ruins Dooku's focus.

    A lot of people read this fight as Dooku getting punked. But that's really not the case until Sidious steps in. Anakin's potential was greater, but Dooku at the time had the experience and was at the point where he was winning that -killer- of a fight.

    And I'd say - if Palpatine had been at Mustafar in an advisory role, Anakin would have punked Kenobi as badly as he punked Dooku.
  6. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face.
    "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

    Sidious bared his teethe, but only briefly.
    "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be my right hand."


    A telling passage. Indeed, its doesn't mention strength at all.

    IF Dooku had been Stronger with the dark side...

    Dooku was a Sith but one that became one late. He wasn't strong in the dark side in that it never crossed his mind as to how the Sith find replacements or that he never considered that HE should rule the galaxy. The fact that Dooku retained his sense of honor is the prime example of how he did not absorb all of Palpatine's lessons.

    Dooku knew and used the power of the dark side, but never gave himself to it.
  7. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    their strenght in the force or in the dark side has little to do with their dueling abilities.i still think dooku would destroy vader because he is faster and can use lightning wich happens to be very deadly to suited vader
  8. Master_Obi-One Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 25, 2005

  9. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Well, Luke. But not in the butt-kicking sense of 'beaten'
  10. Greedo_forever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 3
    To answer the main question:

    Being ignorant by choice of the EU, the Journal of the Whills (whatever THAT is) and Jedi "power" levels ( :rolleyes: ), and looking at the films at face value, I'd have to say that no, Dooku was NOT stronger than Sidious.

    Face value reasons why:

    1. Dooku was Sidious' apprentice.

    2. Dooku's force lightning was blocked pretty easily by Obi Wan and Yoda in AOTC (compared to the difficulties expressed by Yoda vs. Sidious' lightning in ROTS).

    There!

    Hugs and Kisses everyone! :D
  11. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    "Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?"

    No way.
  12. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    That's blunt;)

    I can't say no way, because Dooku is supposed to be, well not necessarily as strong, but nearly as strong as Mace. And Mace did a pretty good job against Sideous. I believe you are under that impression so as well?

    Dooku is fascinating... and to say that Yoda blocked Dooku's lightning easily, but not Sids... well, Yoda was kind of caught off guard with Sideous, but managed non the less to throw it back at him. But then again, it didn't seem that Yoda was giving his all against Dooku
  13. ChestRockwell Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2004
    star 2
    Dooku had a great knowledge of the force, both darkside and the good side. So does Vader/Anakin by time the story is over. Had Dooku somehow returned to the light side and his jedi roots "which is unlikley" he could of possibly defeated Sidious the same way Ani/Vader does later on.
  14. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I know the lightning-on-Kenobi was added as 'hey, wouldn't that be cool' in post-production, which is why Kenobi doesn't seem to even react at all. But Anakin got taken out pretty darn good with a short blast(maybe even better than Luke in ROTJ), and Dooku wasn't pressing it on Kenobi. Also there's the range to consider.
  15. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I completely disagree.

    IMO, strength in the Force, and, tapping into the dark side ENHANCES DUELING ABILITY. Why else would Sith: use power to increase their understanding?

    Not to sound course, but what does Vader have to do with the question of whether Dooku is as strong as Sidious?
  16. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    I find Tyranus' lightning to be a major mistake on Lucas' part. I would also agree with those who prefer to see the lightning as one of the cardinal powers of the Sith Masters only - and blocking it with a lightsaber just doesn't seem to fit. It would be like blocking a shotgun blast with a sword. However, it would require redoing the turning scene of course...

    But what's done is done. I think Tyranus should have had some other, more mental power - like the ability to cause irrational fear (room darkens, he seems to grow larger, louder, faster, Jedi break out sweating and need to calm themselves to recover), or a voice of command (shouts at Jedi to step back, and they do before realising they have done it - and need to concentrate to repel his directions). He's more like a vampire anyway. Sidious is like the devil, Vader like Frankenstein, Maul like a daemon or fell beast, and Grievous like an giant predatory insect.
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    LOL, Yeah if Vader isn't the G.F.F.A.'s version of Frankenstein, I don't know what is...
  18. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    I find Tyranus' lightning to be a major mistake on Lucas' part. I would also agree with those who prefer to see the lightning as one of the cardinal powers of the Sith Masters only - and blocking it with a lightsaber just doesn't seem to fit.

    I agree with this. Dooku shouldn't have used lightning and Jedi shouldn't be able to block it with a saber.
  19. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Same here. I felt that way all the way leading up to and after AotC. I guess Palpatine's lightning is one louder. Super Lightning!
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Sidious is filled with pure, unadulterated hate. Dooku was not.
  21. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Wow, it sounded as you thought you came up with this all on your own... Could be just me though - but isn't there enough LOTR in Star-Wars?;)

    Come on, that would be a complete rip-off of LOTR! would not have been good.

    I think Dooku being able to use lightning, because he is in a sense a master himself!
  22. JawaStew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2005
    star 3
    Hey, not so harsh! Didn't say it was my idea, I'm no director. Just ideas on how to carry off the imagery of such a thing. The point is, lightning was cooler when it wasn't Dark Side standard-issue. It would have been a cool opportunity to give him a different power more suitable to his demeanour.
  23. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Why is Dooku supposed to almost as strong as Mace? Mace lost only twice in lightsaber duels--once to Yoda and once to Dooku, who at that time had not accessed the dark side and Sith secrets.

    To answer the question of the thread, it is safe to say that Dooku would have beaten Sids in lightsaber combat, but not in use of the Force. And, as we have seen, Sids can beat everyone when it comes down to it. As we have seen in football, a team can lose the statistical battle but win in the only area that counts--the final scoring of points.
  24. Darth-Bone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 3
    While I will admit, that Sidious is probably more powerful (only because Lucas says so to justify his being the ultmiate bad guy) those who compare the lightning are missing the point.

    Dooku did his one handed and from about 20-25 feet away.

    Sidious did his from 2-3 feet away.

    So that is a wash, really.

    But if we must, let's look at the people their lightning had impact on.

    A quick one handed zap from Dooku slammed Anakin into a wall so hard it knocked him unconcious.

    Sidious's two handed extended zap )he extended it only to make him suffer a moment) sent Mace flying about 40 feet away.

    Had their not been a wall that Anakin slammed into, it's likely Anakin would have flown that far from Dooku's zap.

    Personally, I think Dooku's knowledge of the force and saber skills exceeded Sidious', but like Sinister said, Sidious was pure hate, and that amped things up a bit.

    It's like, I don't know, trying to make a comparison here. Like Thing vs Hulk. Virtually similar in every way, with the finesse adges going to Thing. But Hulk's brute rage overcomes whatever Thing has.

    That might be a bad comparison, but it's the best I can think of right now.

    When emotions can feed one's power, he who has stronger emotions ultimatly is more powerful.

    Having said that, an emotionless troll like Yoda really had no chance of beating Sidious.
  25. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Dooku's lightning attack was easily delfected by Obi Wan's lightsaber, and Yoda deflected it without a weapon and even redirected it with ease. Neither Mace nor Yoda had an easy time with attacks from Sidious. Dooku was otherwise probably on par with Sidious as far as dueling goes.
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