Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    To answer the question of the thread, it is safe to say that Dooku would have beaten Sids in lightsaber combat, but not in use of the Force.
    I don't think Dooku could even compete with the Emperor in a lightsaber duel. Palpatine is a level 9 and Dooku is a level 8, which means the Emperor is a much better swordsman. Gillard said that there's an enormous difference between levels 8 and 9.

    I don't think Dooku could beat Mace either, because Mace is a level 9 swordsman. Stories about Dooku beating Mace are only in the EU and would contradict what Lucas and Gillard say about both charcters' power levels, unless Dooku's victory occurred when Mace was very young and hadn't refined his skills yet.
  2. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    What makes you think Dooku is an 8? Nick Gilliard said that Yoda, Palps, and Anakin are 9's and that circumstances would determine the outcome of any fight involving them. He also said that Obi-Wan had progressed to an 8 by then. He did not mention Mace or Dooku. But, considering that on the OS it states that Mace lost only to Yoda and Dooku, that Dooku handed an 8-level Kenobi his ass, while Mace beat Sids, it is safe to say that Dooku and Mace are both 9's. I think Dooku would defeat Mace and Sids (one-on-one) if it were only lightsaber fighting.

    True, an 8-level Kenobi did beat a 9-level Anakin--but not in the lightsaber. Kenobi, who was not conficted, and who knew Anakin's character and fighting style, stayed alive long enough so that Anakin's hubris finally gave Kenobi the opportunity to end the fight.
  3. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    What makes you think Dooku is an 8?

    Gillard said that Mace, Yoda, Anakin, and the Emperor are the only level 9 swordsmen. Anakin was a level 7 in AOTC and Dooku defeated him very easily, so I assume the Count is a level 8.

    But, considering that on the OS it states that Mace lost only to Yoda and Dooku

    That in the EU section, so it isn't necessarily consistent with the movies. Lucas and Gillard both say that Mace and the Emperor are better swordsmen than Dooku.
  4. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    I seem to remember prior to ROTS's coming out that Gilliard's only referred to Anakin, Palps, and Yoda as 9's, not that they were the only 9's. I never heard that Anakin was a 7 in AOTC. When and where did GL and NG say that Mace and the Emperor are better swordsmen? I've been away for awhile, nor have I bought the DVD yet, so I may have missed something.
  5. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I have a quote out of the Making of ROTS book.

    "On AOTC, I had to give them levels," he says. Sidious is a level 9(out of 10). On this film Obi is 8-he's moved up-Anakin is a 9: Mace is a 9, Yoda is a 9. They're up there with Sidious.

    No mention of Dooku. Maybe you can cheat a little and say he's an 8.5.
  6. Darth-Bone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 3
    Vader's lament - look at the distance Dooku fired from as oposed to Sidious.
  7. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks. But until I see something in print that shows that Dooku is inferior to these swordsmen, I still believe him to be a 9 and also better than Mace and Yoda. He did hold his own against Yoda and AOTC (and I don't believe either deteriorated by ROTS); held up against Kenobi and Anakin in the little time they dueled (before using the Force a bit). Anakin's beating Dooku was part hatred, part Dooku's not understanding what was playing out, and a good move on Anakin's part at the end--not bc of inferior lightsaber ability. Dooku beat Mace early and I doubt he's deteriorated.
  8. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Yoda was no further away when he walked in Palptine's office than he was when he walked in on Dooku in AOTC. Dooku was even closer to Obi Wan and his lightning was easliy deflected by the lightsaber. Dooku's Force Lightning is not as powerfull as Palp's.
  9. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    I agree. While Dooku was one of the most powerful force users prior to becoming a Sith, and increased his power afterwards, I believe Sids to be a more powerful force user, esp at Sith lightning.
  10. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    But until I see something in print that shows that Dooku is inferior to these swordsmen, I still believe him to be a 9 and also better than Mace and Yoda.

    If Dooku was a level 9 swordsmen, I think Gillard would have mentioned him. In The Making of ROTS, he only refers to four characters as level 9.

    Dooku was forced to retreat against Yoda and I think he would have been killed if he kept fighting. The Emperor is the Master, so he must be a better swordsman than Dooku. McDiarmid claims that his character is faster than anyone else, which would include Dooku (see the quotes in my signature).

    I never heard that Anakin was a 7 in AOTC

    "Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."- Homing Beacon #126

    When and where did GL and NG say that Mace and the Emperor are better swordsmen?

    Lucas said you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor in The Making of ROTS. Dooku wasn't included as someone who can compete with the Emperor, so he must be inferior.
  11. tkip Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 3
    Some of these comments don't really make alot of sense. Dooku was a full-blown Sith. Thus his name Tyranus. Sidious obviously knighted him and Dooku became his apprentice. He was a full-blown sith.

    Dooku didn't seem to get the better of Yoda and resorted to sneaky tactics to make his escape. And lest we forget, Anakin kicked his ass in ROTS. Sidious pushed Yoda around far more than Dooku ever did.

    There really is no comparison or contest. If Dooku had lived however, is another matter entirely. Very possible that Dooku might have and probably exceeded Sidious if not matched him and then offed him.

    Don't forget. Sidious killed his master while sleeping. He clearly didn't want to risk taking him on in any direct way. Guess you could say he cheated. Like Dooku did with Yoda.
  12. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Forced to retreat? Circumstances as much as actually being overmatched decided that - after all Mace would reach the hanger eventually, and lots and lots of clones.

    I'd be willing to say Mace is a better swordsman. But Dooku is very very good, and better than Kenobi, I think. In Dooku vs. Mace, it's the other factors that would decide the fight. I think Dooku's tactical superiority, understanding of Mace where Mace (as demonstrated in AOTC) really doesn't understand him, his ability to use the environment to his advantage, understanding of the Force and total mastery of the in-combat Force-push punk(the most important part) will take the day. As has been amply demonstrated in the EU (I have scans).

    But Dooku is outmatched psychologically against Sidious, and that's where he'd lose before he ever draws a lightsaber.
  13. ZamWesell44 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 4
    You think Mace is a better swordsman, than Dooku,:confused: they did not excatly look equal to me, Dooku's style was smoother and better than everybody.
  14. Sith_Lord_Magnus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 1
    I like how the some of the Mace hate even spills over in this thread.

    Dooku gets an whole lot of credit that I guess Mace doesn't deserve for giving Palpatine such a hard time. Dooku stood up to Yoda ok. Dooku handle Kenobi pretty well twice but that doesn't put him on exactly even footing with Palpatine. I think Dooku is powerful but not quite as powerful as Palpatine.

    By the way, the first place that EU thing about Mace being bested by Dooku in a duel was in the Jedi source book for the Star Wars role-playing game. I am not sure if that is considered cannon.
  15. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    No, they faced off recently in Obsession #5. Briefly. And by briefly I mean 'Mace is disarmed and over a cliff in a page and a half'. Admittedly Dooku had the partial help of two bodyguard droids, but they were unarmed.
  16. Sith_Lord_Magnus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 1
  17. JOHNNY-B Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2003
    star 2
    "Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?"

    Powerful Dooku was, yes...but he was no where near the level of Darth Sidious. Darth Sidious has a much better knowledge of the dark side then Dooku would have ever had. Besides he's the one that taught Dooku about the dark side. I mean you look at Darth Sidious, he was pretty much destroying a whole arena like it was nothing, and laughting on top of it. That's pretty prowerful! And there's no telling what else he could have possiblely done with the dark side. His saber skills where also pretty impressive to - just look what he did to the three jedi that came with Mace... Not only that, but he pretty much held his own with Yoda to. And who knows who would have won had they had been able to finish there duel. Dooku might have been able to do some of the same things that Darth Sidious could have did, but he is by no means stronger then Darth Sidious.I believe when it's all said and done, were Dooku to challenge Sidious...he would lose, and lose badly... I think.
  18. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    EU will never be canon!

    Mace fought one duel aginst a Sith, and that was for a reason. We were supposed to think of him as very powerful because he could overpower Sideous. And he IS very powerful. When I said that I think Dooku was supposed to be almost as powerful as Mace, I was relating to what most of you guys say!

    Yoda controlled the fight with Dooku... "You have fought well, my old padawan"... you don't say that if you're losing... He was either going in for the kill then, or he was going to disarm him - and Dooku realized that I guess.

    But Dooku is very powerful. I'm perhaps the only one who believe that Dooku was at least equally strong as Anakin in ROTS - therefore I believe that Sideous had a little hand in the game...
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i brought vader to the discussion because someone made a vader/dooku comparison a few pages back and i wanted to give my opinion.anyway i think dooku would fume OT vader but im not so sure he can take on palpatine...the skills he has them and so the knowledge of the force but the odds are with sidious IMO
  20. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I think this makes sense... I too feel the odds are with Sideous, not just because of his powers, but because of everything else going his way. It's difficult to beat a man full of confidence...
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    as strong ?? maybe,im not sure but possibly he was quite close.

    was he bold enough to try to take on palpatine ?? deffinitely not or he would be the master.
  22. DarthGroznii Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    I think Dooku might have been as strong as Sidious at one point. However, it is very clear that by ROTS that Dooku is past his prime. He is likely older than Sidious.

  23. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    yep.he is at least a good couple of decades older than sidious
  24. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Dooku was wise in the Force and shrewd.



    But in terms of strength and power, if he had more than Sidious, then quite simply DOOKU WOULD BE THE MASTER.



    Isn't that how the Sith live?

    For their order, it's Survival of the Strongest.
  25. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i agree.thats exactly how i see it too
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.