Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
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    Dooku is a mystery.

    I'm not sure if he ever wanted to kill Obi Wan, Yoda or Anakin in his respective confrontations with them.

    It's very interesting the way Lucas got Lee to play it: When Dooku is blasting Yoda with his lightning in Episode II, he's only using one hand. His face also seems somewhat exasperated and fretful. This is all in marked contrast to the way Sidious fights Yoda in Episode III. Dooku clearly prefers brandishing a lightsabre; his facial expression as he's delivering the line about "skills with a lightsabre" is a clear indication of this - as is his curved handle and very elegant, highly developed swinging style.

    Ultimately, I think Dooku was less powerful than Sidious. He always seemed to be holding back one way or the other. He wasn't the conduit for the Dark Side that Sidious was. He didn't even have reptilian eyes! I see Dooku as a man caught hopelessly between two worlds. He was following his own code - but that code had snippets of his old life as a Jedi and snippets of his new life as a Sith mixed together. I think Dooku knew he was in a slippery position and planned to get out of it; he never did, of course. No man can ever stand up straight or run properly when walking on ice.
  2. Rossa83 Jedi Master

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    Sep 8, 2005
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    Good stuff! I also believe he was somewhat caught between his own hopes and desires, and his path down the dark side... as Yoda says "forever it will consume you"! Dooku wanted something - it's just difficult to know exactly what that was!
  3. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
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    An end to the corruption and ineffectivenes of the Republic, I think - with him playing a significant role in the new political structure.
  4. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
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    Yes!

    Dooku was on a political agenda... as Ki Adi Mundi says: he's a political idealist, not a murderer!

    Well, he was sort of a murderer, only he never really killed anyone himself[face_thinking]

    He's complex, would be cool had the films given him more screen time. But now he stands like this mystic person, and that's interesting as well
  5. lordvicious Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2005
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    For the purpose of the thread...Dooku is less powerful than Sidious. The EU books confirm it (particularly ROTS and LOE), and GL (and the other film team) confirm it. Dooku was very impressive in the movie though, and I would put him above any other fighter in the movie except Yoda. I think Dooku fought Yoda well in AOTC, but he would have lost if it had continued.

    However, once again I realize that this discussion has come about because of one reason...the Mace vs. Sidious fight. Again, a bad decision by GL is damaging the character of Sidious and throwing off so much in the Saga. If the Yes vote had been confirmed, noone would think twice about this, and I really don't think GL ever intended for Dooku to look anywhere close to Sidious' level. Because of that fight, people doubt Sidious' saber abilities etc. This really highlights that Mace was a "nothing" character who was thrown a bone. Most people would probably think Dooku would whoop Mace. I do.
  6. stajedi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Dooku was Sidious' apprentice. Yoda actually tied with Dooku(thechnally Yoda would have won if he wouldn't have had to save Anakin's and Obi-Wan's life from a giant pillar)And Sidious is the master witch would mean that he is better with a lightsaber than his apprentice because f he wasn't he would probobly be dead just like he killed his master.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Hayden Christensen is a good cinematic swordsman. He went against an actual swordmaster who had years of training and experience. Guess who won? Hayden. The "best of the best" lost to a novice who only had a few weeks of training. Anyone can be beaten.

    Dooku's an excellent swordsman according to his backstory. The eu defines his skill as Form II. Palpatine's a powerful Sith Lord who is good with a sword, but not the best alive. His style in the eu is a variation of Form IV, where he adds a lot of thrusts. Dooku can challenge and beat a number of opponets, but he can be beaten. Just as Palpatine can be beaten as well. Anakin was stronger in the Force, but not as experienced as Dooku. We saw who won in ROTS. Anakin was faster while Dooku was skilled. In this fight, it was speed that ultimately gave Anakin the advantage and allowed him to win.

    People can win or lose. It all depends on what happens. Sometimes skill and experience wins. Sometimes it's chance when the two are nearly equal to each other.
  8. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
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    i agree with your analisis but in a hypothetical fight were would your money be ?? [face_thinking]
  9. farrellg Force Ghost

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    Mar 17, 2005
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    However, once again I realize that this discussion has come about because of one reason...the Mace vs. Sidious fight. Again, a bad decision by GL is damaging the character of Sidious and throwing off so much in the Saga. If the Yes vote had been confirmed, noone would think twice about this, and I really don't think GL ever intended for Dooku to look anywhere close to Sidious' level. Because of that fight, people doubt Sidious' saber abilities etc. This really highlights that Mace was a "nothing" character who was thrown a bone.

    Excellent observation. ROTS has done some serious damage to the Emperor's character if people are entertaining the notion that Dooku or Obi-Wan are close to his level.

    Hayden Christensen is a good cinematic swordsman. He went against an actual swordmaster who had years of training and experience. Guess who won? Hayden. The "best of the best" lost to a novice who only had a few weeks of training. Anyone can be beaten.

    Which swordsmaster did Hayden defeat and when? Was this during AOTC or ROTS?
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    I'd wager that Sidious would ultimately win. It'd be a fight to be sure.

    The fight was in AOTC, but I do not know the name of the sword master. I dunno if he was one of the extras for the Genosis scenes or if he visited the set while filming in Sydney. I do know that Gillard related the story around 2000 or 2001.
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i think that sidious is deffinitely more powerful than dooku.

    in a fight the odds are with sidious 65/35 more or less IMHO
  12. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2005
    star 4
    Thanks. However, that Gilliard doesn't mention Dooku as a level 9 doesn't mean that Dooku isn't so. There was a lot of hype over Lee/Dooku for AOTC bc he was the new Sith apprentice and played by one of the most talented/experience swordsmen/actors. Thanks for the info about Anakin. I wonder if Kenobi was a 7 then as well. However, Anakin, even after being impulsive and being fried by Dooku, puts up a better fight against Dooku in AOTC than Kenobi, with 1 and with 2 swords--perhaps out of resolve to save his friend's head, perhaps out of being a better swordsmen even then. However, bc Sids is the master doesn't make him a better swordsman than Dooku. Kenobi was Anakin's master and inferior in ROTS, if not also AOTC. Also, Sids did not teach Dooku fencing. Dooku learned that as a Jedi, then rediscovered Form 2, changed his lightsaber hilt, and perfected this style. Moreover, this style is the one most suited for fencing. Finally, Lucas' line could refer to Jedi. And even then, Anakin could compete with the Emperor. And as presuit Vader, he could have killed him, if it did not come down to mastery over the Force, or at least the Dark Side, and psychology.

    Now, to those of you who say that Dooku is older than Sids and past his prime: I agree with the first part as I do not believe Sids to be all that old. But that is a separate issue discussed in several redundant threads. But I don't believe Dooku to be past his prime--it would have lessened Anakin's rematch.
  13. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    However, that Gilliard doesn't mention Dooku as a level 9 doesn't mean that Dooku isn't so.

    I think Gillard would have mentioned Dooku if he was a level 9. Lucas also would have mentioned Dooku if he was capable of competing with the Emperor. He said "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". Being Mace or Yoda is a prerequisite for competing with the Emperor. Since Dooku is not one of those two people, he cannot compete with the Emperor.

    However, bc Sids is the master doesn't make him a better swordsman than Dooku. Kenobi was Anakin's master and inferior in ROTS, if not also AOTC.

    When there are two Sith lords, the stronger one is the Master and the weaker one is the Apprentice. This means that Dooku must be an inferior swordsman to the Emperor. It isn't the same as when Kenobi was training Anakin. Jedi don't try to kill each other and become the Master if they surpass their teacher. I don't think Anakin was superior to Kenobi in AOTC. In ROTS, Anakin was better than Obi-Wan, but he was a full-fledged Jedi Knight and no longer his pupil.

    And even then, Anakin could compete with the Emperor.

    Anakin cannot compete with the Emperor at the time of ROTS. Lucas has said he had the ability to become more powerful than the Emperor, but he wasn't there yet during ROTS. Instead, he is much less powerful than the Emperor during ROTS.

    The OS says the Emperor is the most powerful practicioner of the dark side, meaning he's stronger than both Anakin and Dooku. Lucas referred to the Empero as the "toughest" during his duel with Yoda. McDiarmid said that his character is "much more powerful" than Anakin. Yoda sent Obi-Wan to fight Anakin, showing he considers the Emperor the stronger of the two. Obi-Wan was able to defeat Anakin because of his experience, but Kenobi can't even "compete" with the Emperor. The Emperor said "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us", meaning he isn't as powerful yet.

    Since there's such a huge power difference between the Emperor and Anakin, I think Anakin would be easily electrocuted and rendered completely helpless.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Actually, Dooku could be the superior swordsman to Palpatine, but still fail to kick his ass. Palpatine's power is not with a Lightsaber, but Force useage. Dooku's Force skills as a Sith are quite exceptional, but Yoda could easily create a stalemate. Against Palpatine, Yoda had trouble. Dooku could probably outfight Palpatine with a sword, but not in a battle decided by knowledge of the Force.
  15. PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
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    star 4
    Well yes Ferrell, I agree with you. In knowledge of the Force, or actual Force-power, Sids is the tops. Stronger than Anakin at any time, stronger than Vader at any time, stronger than Dooku. No doubt. But at fencing, I still wager that Dooku is better, or at least in the 9 category, and thus circumstances could give Palps the edge. Palps is stronger, and by a large amount, psychologically, politically, and dark sider mastery than anyone in the GFFA. Originally in this thread I clearly distinguished swordmanship and force ability, but I didn't do so in my previous post.
  16. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    Darth Tyrannus, Darth Maul, and suited Darth Vader were of equal power, each 80 percent the power of Darth Sidious.

    If you combined Maul,Tyrannus, and suited Vader, you would have Uber Mustafar Vader.

    They each represent different aspects of powerhouse Mustafar Vader.
  17. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
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    Dooku could probably outfight Palpatine with a sword, but not in a battle decided by knowledge of the Force.

    What makes you think Dooku is a better swordsman than Palpatine? Is it based on how fast he looks onscreen? Gillard referred to the Emperor, Yoda, Mace, and Anakin as level 9 swordsmen. I think this means Dooku is a level 8 and inferior to the Emperor, since Gillard didn't list the Count as a level 9.
  18. joshuavance Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    star 3
    That's why the Gillard and Lucas power rankings were said in jest, not to be taken seriously, they were in response to Rob Coleman cracking a joke. They weren't intended to be gospel.

    In the EU, Dooku defeated Mace Windu dueling.
    A Level 8 over a 9.

    In ROTS Obi-Wan stood toe to toe with Uber Vader, and won.

    A level 8 over a 9.


    That is an internal and inconsistent logical fallacy.

    It just goes to show when you get THAT powerful, 7's, 8's and 9's the differences between skill and power decrease dramatically, and anything is fair game and anyone can come out a winner, depending on who is having a good day and who is having a bad day.
  19. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
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    This discussion has become so full of EU that I can't believe it hasn't been closed or something. It's supposed to be about the films. But every argument now relies on wich levels they are at in terms of swordsmanship - what the EU tells, and so forth - it has little or nothing to do with the films...

    If we are to look at the films, I would say that Dooku's style was more impressive and refined. But that does not mean it's better...
  20. Darth-Bone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
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    Yoda caught off guard by Sidious and Anakin caught off guard by Sidious = same result, except Dooku used one hand.

    The next time Yoda was ready for Sidious' lightning, he was 1 foot away tops.

    As far as saber blocking - Obi Wan was about 8-10 feet away from Dooku's one hand (and his lightning attempt even then seemd more precautionary than hate filled) whereas Mace was 2 feet away from Sidious' hate filled two handed zap.



  21. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    There are a couple of ways to look at this question.

    One way is of course their talent of wielding a lightsaber.
    Sidious is one who has learned to conceal his abilities. I believe if Dooku had at one point taken on Sidious he would have been defeated.

    Recall, that Yoda/Sidious duel was basically a draw.

    Dooku was a fool to trust Sidious. Why did he not speak out those last few moments of his life? Skywalker probably would not have believed him, but it would have possibly sown a few seeds of doubt into Anakin's mind about Palpatine.

    Everyone is a tool in Palpatine's eyes to be used by him in his bid for power and revenge against the Jedi.

    The reason why he kept Anakin alive and inserted him into the suit was that he still needed a tool to bend the galaxy to his rule and use Vader's anger to hunt out and destroy the remaining Jedi.

  22. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

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    Mar 4, 2004
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    In AOTC Dooku litterally plays with Obi-Wan. It's quite clear that Dooku are levels above Obi-Wan when it comes to Lightsaber combat. He also manages to control both Obi-Wan and Anakin in ROTS (Anakin doesn't get the upper hand until he gives into his anger). That's pretty impressive by Dooku. I think it's fair that judging by the movies (and not on that Nick Gillard failed to mention Dooku) Dooku is at the same level as Sidious/Mace/Yoda when it comes to Lightsaber combat.
  23. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
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    Remember, Anakin and Obiwan in AOTC have been fighting in the arena. Surely they must be tired.

    Dooku has not.

    At Celebrations III, Nick Gillard mentioned something unknown to all of us. The Dooku/Anakin duel in AOTC was much more involved. Much of it edited out. Gillard sounded disappointed by that and is hoping that someday the deleted scenes will be inserted.
  24. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    yeah but he still owns them in like 20 seconds each.if they were not tired i give them half a minute tops.


    that much is clear;)
  25. Darth-Bone Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2002
    star 3
    Just as Dooku had just finished fighting Anakin and Obi Wan when a fresh Yoda showed up , and then fought yoda to a draw.

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