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Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    good point bone...[face_thinking] ...i had forgotten about that
     
  2. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    That's why the Gillard and Lucas power rankings were said in jest, not to be taken seriously, they were in response to Rob Coleman cracking a joke.

    I don't think the lightsaber levels were a joke at all. Gillard didn't list them as a response to Rob Coleman's joke about the B-team. It was at that point that Lucas said "you have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor". Gillard talked about the lightsaber levels in Homing Beacon #126, in an article called "Dueling Jedi", and in The Making of ROTS. He claimed there is an enormous difference between level 8 and 9.
     
  3. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    But you have to agree that there just can't be such an immense difference between level 8 and 9! If there was, then OBW could not have beaten ANakin no matter how emotional Anakin was - because OBW was emotional as well...

    Nowhere in the films do they mention any levels of swordsmanship... so it's not canon either way!
     
  4. farrellg

    farrellg Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 17, 2005
    But you have to agree that there just can't be such an immense difference between level 8 and 9! If there was, then OBW could not have beaten ANakin no matter how emotional Anakin was - because OBW was emotional as well...

    Lucas claims that Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced. Both Christensen and Gillard have said Anakin loses because he gets emotional and makes mistakes. Obi-Wan, on the other hand, remains calm and focused and doesn't make mistakes, according to Gillard. Obi-Wan defeated his former apprentice through superior experience and intellect, not superior power.

    The lightsaber ranking are canon because Gillard creates them along with Lucas. They reflect what power level Lucas assigns to each character.
     
  5. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    But they are not in the films!
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Anakin lost because he was angry and arrogant. Obi-wan was not angry or arrogant. He thought it out rationally and logically. He knew that Anakin was going to continue the fight the minute he got off the droid. So he tells him that it's over, he has the advantage. Anakin is arrogant and cocky. He tells him that he underestimates his power. Obi-wan senses what's coming and warns him to don't do it. Anakin doesn't listen and jumps foolishly into the air, thinking that Obi-wan cannot touch him. As we see, he is dead wrong.

    Anakin's powerful, but Obi-wan's experienced. That's why their fight lasts so long.
     
  7. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    I understand that bit... but then it doesn't lend much credit to the level 8 and 9 thing does it? because experience would cancel out the difference in the swordsmanship level!? As I said, with that reasoning, Yoda should be invincible... He is a level 9, and the most experienced.
     
  8. Alpha-Red

    Alpha-Red Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Apr 25, 2004
    Now that I think about it...I think Dooku actually could've beaten Sidious if he hadn't turned to the dark side. It's simply because Sidious is such a manipulator, that everyone who turns to the dark side ends up bowing to him as an apprentice. But if they were free from his control...that'd be a different story.
     
  9. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    I understand that bit... but then it doesn't lend much credit to the level 8 and 9 thing does it? because experience would cancel out the difference in the swordsmanship level!? As I said, with that reasoning, Yoda should be invincible... He is a level 9, and the most experienced.

    No matter how experienced a being can become at some point they will run into the physical limitations of the body. The body can only bend so much, move so fast, jump so high etc.

    The Jedi have the Force to push beyond certain limitations like how high a person can jump, but even though Yoda states that "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!", they are still trapped within those bodies and only so much of the Force is going to flow through.

    I think people are trying to be way too absolute about the whole level 8 versus level 9 thing.
     
  10. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003

    I agree with Sinister. After reading the two pages I missed this weekend I decided to offer you all this little Sith tid-bit to ponder.

    From Dark Lord, pg 135:

    (But) Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will. Self-restraint was praised by the Jedi only because they didn't know the power of the dark side.

    Powered by treachery, the Sith Master-apprentice relationship was always a dangerous game. Trust was encouraged even while being sabotaged; loyalty was demanded even while betrayal was prized; suspicion was nourished even while honesty was praised.

    In some sense it was survival of the fittest.

    ***

    In light of that passage, I can see more clearly that Dooku showed hesitation in each duel. No doubt as a result of 50 years of being a Jedi Master. Tyranus lacked the purely wicked intent and desire for revenge that was inside Sidious.

    I just don't see how Dooku can be compared to Sidious, power-wise.

    Saber?

    Mos Def.

    Power?

    No Way...


    Dooku is the Sith-apprentice because he is less powerful than the Master, Darth Sidious.
     
  11. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    Some are being way too absolute in many things here... especially about the things not present in the films. The sword levels are not introduced in the films, so in a sense they do not exist in the films... level 9 can't be that much more superior. Simply because the times we see an allegedely level 8 vs level 9 neither is dominating the other...
     
  12. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

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    Jun 26, 2001
    I agree about the fighting styles not being a part of the films. Strictly EU. But there's no way whatsoever that Dooku is stronger than Sidious. Only one is stronger and it's the Chosen One.
     
  13. darthvaderv

    darthvaderv Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 20, 2005
    Dooku as strong as Sidious= NO!

    However.........Battles are not always won on strength. And the level 8, level 9 business is like saying on paper Mike Tyson will kick Buster Douglas's Butt.

    Anyone can get lucky or gain an advantage. So although he is not as strong, it is possible, however small, that Dooku could get the better of sidious. Although my money is still on sids.
     
  14. DarthSapient

    DarthSapient Jedi Youngling star 10

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    Jun 26, 2001
    Dooku lost his battle with Anakin, hands down. [face_whistling]
     
  15. PrinceEspaaValorum

    PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    Bc he was not all that winded fighting level 8 Kenobi and level 9 Skywalker. Yes, Anakin overpowered him and then outwitted him, but that doesn't make him a better swordsman. Dooku was also under the impression that this would not be a fight to the death--except for Kenobi.

    NG does not mention that Dooku is level anything--probably bc he is not all as important for ROTS as he was for AOTC, where there was a lot of hype of Lee being one of the best cinematic swordsmen in history, of his European fencing style being incorporated into the SW saga style of lightsaber fighting.
     
  16. PrinceEspaaValorum

    PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    Agree, when it comes to Force-power and dark side mastery. And when it comes to psychological and political manipulation, which need not use the Force. And there are other Force abilities--reading another's mind/intent, blocking laser blasts with the hands, force lightning, reading the future, making sense of events, etc, etc, which I have seen Palps to be superior than any one other Sith and and perhaps than any other Jedi (more so than less so, he was caught unawares by Luke's refusal and Vader's betrayal in ROTJ). Anakin may be an exception, but so may be netherworldly Qui-Gon, from a certain POV.

    But at lightsaber fencing, but one Jedi/Sith skill, albeit a very important one, I still believe Dooku to amongst the elite, if not the best. So what, it didn't keep him alive bc he could not sense his Master's betrayal or Anakin's destiny. Anakin may have been stronger than Dooku at that point, but Dooku's experience should have helped him as Kenobi's experience helped him. If anything, Dooku's pride did him in. And then he did lose, hands down to Anakin. Nice pun, btw.

     
  17. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003
    The Sith only use their lightsabers to humiliate the Jedi.
     
  18. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    You're kidding, right? So Maul humiliated the Jedi? Dooku humiliated the Jedi? SIdeus humiliated the Jedi when he was on the floor, nearly begging for his life?

    Yeah right!
     
  19. WEEBACCA

    WEEBACCA Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Mar 4, 2004
    If Mace Windu actually managed to beat Sidious in Lightsaber combat then there's no question: Dooku would destroy Sidious.

    Just look at the way Dooku toys with Obi-Wan in AOTC, how he disposes of Anakin and how he manages to fight both Anakin and Obi-Wan in ROTS (disposing of Obi-Wan easily).

    Then take a look at the way he handles a lightsaber compared to Mace Windu. If Mace really managed to beat Sidious then Dooku would have taken him easily!
     
  20. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    [face_thinking]...

    lets ask qui gon and the same obi wan who was disarmed by maul...[face_thinking]

    in AOTC yep,he did,same for vs kenobi in ROTS.


    at least the posse ,yes he did,he won 4 and lost one.

    thats why i say he lost one :D . the begging was fake anyway


    mace is a superior fighter to dooku.sidious is dooku's master for a reason ,and the "if actually" is not neccesary because mace won fair and square according to GL and the DVD.

    yep i saw it.obi wan and anakin were both amateurs by AOTC,and in ROTS as soon as dooku fights 1 on 1 vs the stronger of the 2 he gets owned

    thats called choreography,the used a stuntman for lee but they didnt with samuel jackson.every source except for the ridiculous ones(EU) calls mace a superior fighter to dooku.
     
  21. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    Sithrules: I know that Dooku bested OBW and Anakin quite easily in AOTC, but you have to take into accord who they are fighting... now, he didn't make a laughing matter out of Yoda, did he? he didn't make a laughing matter of Anakin in ROTS? (bad joke anyways:p )

    Sideous killed those by-standers who looked like they had a just gotten out of bed, wondering, "hmmm... what the heck is happening, why am I wearing my saber - ah, probably a nightmare... oh now, Jedi's don't have nightmares!" and we know how that went...

    The sith, fighting Jedi of some caliber have to struggle as much as the Jedi they are fighting... if not, how the hell would you explain how the Sith went into hiding for a millennia?
     
  22. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    if not, how the hell would you explain how the Sith went into hiding for a millennia?

    because they were 2 and the jedi were like 10.000. if 10.000 sith could coexist without betraying and killing themselves and they had a fight with the jedi my money would be on the sith all the way
     
  23. Rossa83

    Rossa83 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 8, 2005
    Well, I'm not saying that 10,000 sith would not best 10,000 Jedi.... it would be one hell of a showdown though...[face_hypnotized] But if the Sith hadn't used their sabers because they thought themselves so superior, it would be easy picking for the Jedi me thinks...

    I'm merely saying they are actually quite close in terms of powers... don't go all farrelg on me now - remember that you once said that Lucas didn't say how much difference there was in terms of power between the light and dark side...


    Besides, the Sith seems to focus on being strong, those Jedi who do they same would be likely to be as strong... Qui-Gon never seemed a fighter to me - although he was supposed to be a good duelist
     
  24. sithrules70

    sithrules70 Jedi Padawan star 4

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    May 28, 2005
    im not going farrellg on you but i do think that the dark side is stronger in combat
     
  25. SithStarSlayer

    SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Oct 23, 2003






    No, I'm not kidding. The Sith believe that a lightsaber is a Jedi weapon, Sidious even says as much to Luke in ROTJ. The Sith evolved while the Jedi, in their arrogance, remained... stale.



    "You must begin by gaining power over yourself; then another; then a group, an order, a world, a species, a group of species. . . finally the galaxy itself."

    Sidious could still hear Darth Plagueis lecturing him.
    (from Dark Lord, pg. 303)



    How did Sidious accomplish each of those tasks? By brandishing his red "Bloodshine" saber and telling the galaxy to bow down to him in acquiescence?


    I think not.





    The Jedi used lightsabers for "Aggressive Negotiations", ever hear of, or see, the Sith do that?


    Think about it, two red lightsabers against the entire galaxy? If the Sith had not moved past the use of lightsabers, then they never would have been able to take over the GFFA.


     
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