Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4
    The fact that Sidious is Dooku's master has nothing to do with lightsaber skills (Anakin being superior to Obi-Wan for instance). I have no doubt that Sidious' force-powers and knowledge of the dark side is far superior to that of Dooku, but it's pretty obvious watching the way they fight in the movies that Dooku is a lot more skilled with a lightsaber.


    Obi-Wan was not an amateur in AOTC! Obi-Wan was a skilled Jedi who also killed Darth Maul as a padawan. Still Dooku played with him.
    Anakin was a padawan in AOTC, but I think most people would agree that he was exceptionally good with a lightsaber (probably better than most Jedi Masters). Yet Dooku beat him pretty easily.

    Dooku also handles both Anakin and Obi-Wan with ease in ROTS controlling them both with only a single-bladed lightsaber. Remember that it was never Dooku's intention to kill Anakin when they were 1 on 1. He made Anakin turn into his anger so that he could beat him, but if it had been Dooku's intention to kill Anakin he would have done more than just defend himself.


    If the fact that the Dooku fights look so more superior than the Mace fight only because of the stuntmen vs. lack of stuntmen then that is called bad moviemaking. When Dooku is portrayed as so superior to Sidious/Mace in the movies then that is the truth. If George Lucas intended otherwise, then he did a poor job. Dooku is the better swordsman, as is shown in the movies!

  2. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    It depends I think. Mace did overpower Sideous. OBW bested Anakin. Yoda drawed with SIdeous. IF they are, it's not that explicit. But on a general basis, I think I would agree...

    As for the laughing at the lightsaber thing, that is folly. I know that Sideous used other means to create his Empire... that was not because he had lost faith in a lightsaber, it was more that he saw and understood how he could do it. It was genius. He was brilliant - it had nothing to do with lightsabers... he could never have accomplished the things he did by a lightsaber, but that's not the point.

    As for aggressive negotiations: what do you think Sideous sent Maul out to do? What was Anakin doing in ROTS against the seperatist leaders? What was Dooku doing towards the Jedi? What did Sideous do when Mace came to arrest him? aggressive as a hippopotamus in mating season!

  3. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    If the fact that the Dooku fights look so more superior than the Mace fight only because of the stuntmen vs. lack of stuntmen then that is called bad moviemaking. When Dooku is portrayed as so superior to Sidious/Mace in the movies then that is the truth. If George Lucas intended otherwise, then he did a poor job. Dooku is the better swordsman, as is shown in the movies!

    no,had dooku fought sidious he would have been squashed,,but what im i doing arguing with someone who insists that palpatine allowed mace to win anyway...
  4. ForumAuditor Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    Well, Dooku was the one running away from Yoda after a few seconds, the Emperor may have beaten Yoda had HE not retreated.
  5. Haynesworth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2005
    A lot of people think that because Maul was killed by padawan Obi-Wan and Dooku owns Obi-Wan that automatically means Dooku is much better than Maul. Actually, Maul and Dooku are very equal based on what we have seen in the movies. In TPM, Maul is owning Qui-Gonn and Obi-Wan at the same time. He kills Qui-Gonn and proceeds to own Obi-Wan some more, even pushing him into a pit that should of killed him. Somehow, Obi-Wan hangs on and channels his emotions over Qui-Gonn's death into an amazing force jump and grab of a lightsaber that kills the stunned Maul. Maul never expected this to happen, mainly because of his overconfidence and the fact that Obi-Wan was stuck in a pit and had no weapon. Just because Obi-Wan was able to kill Maul does not make him powerful; Maul was owning both Jedi until his death (which mainly happened because it had to in order to further the plot).

    A very similar situation happens with Dooku, only it is spread out over two movies. In AOTC, Dooku owns the Master Obi-Wan and the padawan Anakin. It is basically the same situation with Maul in TPM, except Dooku doesn't kill Obi-Wan and Anakin doesn't kill Dooku. However, this basically happens in ROTS. Dooku doesn't kill Obi-Wan in that duel, but he disposes of him for the fight against Anakin. The difference here is Anakin killing Dooku not a fluke like Obi-Wan killing Maul. (This is debatable because Dooku may have been holding back on Sidious' orders, either way once Anakin goes dark side he owns Dooku, completely different from what happened to Maul). The other difference is Anakin is much more powerful than padawan Obi-Wan so him killing Dooku is much more believable.

    From these scenarios it seems that Maul and Dooku are pretty much equal, a fact also confirmed by Lucas who says those two and suited Vader are all equal and about 80% power of Sidious. All of these guys are the apprentice, so if they were more powerful they would've killed Sidious and become the Master. Anakin is the only one with the potential to be more powerful than Sidious but he loses it when he gets crippled on Mustafar. He becomes a regular apprentice just like Dooku and Maul.
  6. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6




    Who drew a light saber first?

    Mace and the other Jedi in the posse?

    or Sidious?



    Now about AnaVader...

    "I want you to go to the Mustafarrr System, wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the rest of the Separatist Leaders..."

    "When my newww ahhhppprentice, Darrrth Vader arrives... heee, will take care of you..."


    ***
    Vader wasn't involved in any negotiations with the CIS leaders, he was sent there to terminate their verbal agreement with Sidious.

    "The Separatist's have been taken care of... Mahsterrr."








    In Dark Lord, Sidious himself says that the Sith have moved past their lightsaber days and that their use of the weapon is "if only to humiliate the Jedi."








    Semantics aside, we both agree there is more to ursurping control of the galaxy than by the use of lightsabers alone. To that end, Dooku pales in comparison to Darth Sidious.
  7. emporergerner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2005
    star 4
    Dooku was strong very strong at that, but he was no where in the Emporers league. An example of this is there force lighting, Yoda throws Dooku's back after about a minute of struggling. But in ROTS Yoda has a very very hard time dealing with Sidous lighting.

    I think if Dooku would have had the potential to be just as stong Palpatine would have kept him instead of having him whacked.[face_laugh]



    Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
  8. Darth_Gangsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 1
    I didn't read all 7 pages -- but, has anyone made the point about Dooku being more interested in political gain then the Darkside? Unlike Maul, Vader, Sidious, it appears that Dooku has joined the Darkside more because he is disenchanted with the Jedi and the current order of the galaxy. He seems to be using the Darkside of the force for other means, not revelling in it like Sidious. Of course, Sidious is also interested in Galactic change, but Sith domination and revenge on the Jedi is what he wants.

    Sadly, this whole topic reminds me how incomplete Dooku's character was... he could have been soooo much more than what Lucas did with him.....
  9. emporergerner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2005
    star 4
    ^^^^Good point you should make a thread on it. I do not belive there is one out there.




    Emporer Gerner Dark Lord of the Sith
  10. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    The same could be said for many characters in the GFFA.


    Darth Maul would have been the ideal life-long apprentice, IMO.
  11. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    SithStarSlayer: Ofcourse the Jedi had their sabers ignited; after all they were dealing with a sith-lord...

    But mind you, they didn't say that they had come to kill him... they had intentionally come to arrest him! He attacked with a lightsaber!

    Anakin didn't discuss with the seperatist leaders, but he killed them - aggressive negotiations as Anakin himself called it... I think the films rather show that the Sith don't even negotiate - they draw their blade first and asks later. Unlike the Jedi if I may add

    And as for the books. I couldn't care less... I only use the films as canon, since they are what we are discussing! Books based on films rarely turn out good... the quotes I've seen from various books makes me believe this even more - poor language in many cases, and well...
  12. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    The fact that Sidious is Dooku's master has nothing to do with lightsaber skills (Anakin being superior to Obi-Wan for instance).

    The fact that Palpatine is Dooku's Master proves the Emperor is a better swordsman. Anakin was no longer Obi-Wan's apprentice at the time they fought. He was a full-fledged Jedi Knight and had surpassed his former teacher. Gillard said that only Mace, Yoda, the Emperor, and Anakin are level 9's. Dooku is at a lower level. According to the McDiarmid quotes in my signature, the Emperor is a much faster swordsman than Dooku is.
  13. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but palpatine being dooku's master has evrything to do with their powers.thats how it works with the sith,the stronger is the master and as soon as the aprenttice becomes strong enough to kill the master he does it.

    dooku never tried to kill palpatine because:

    1- he was too coward to try
    2- he cant take on palpatine

    i chose both
  14. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4
    Okay,Okay - Mace beat Sidious fair and square. And Mace is even more powerful than Obi-Wan. Happy now? :D



    For once I agree with you, sithrules70! :D
    1. Dooku did not dare to take on Palpatine (which may explain why he wanted Obi-Wan to join him in destroying the Sith Lord).
    2. Sidious is to powerful so Dooku would have been killed.

    I still think that Dooku is better with a lightsaber though...
  15. maxwell1234 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2004
    star 1
    You place way too much importance on those silly McDiarmid quotes.

    All the evidence in the movie itself completely contradicts Ian's silly claim that his character wields a lightsaber 500 times as fast as anyone else. If he did that, noone could even defend one swipe, let alone go toe to toe with him.
    Kit Fisto blocked a few swipes from Sidious before going down, so there is no way in hell Sidious wielded a saber '500' times as fast as anyone else. Hell, not even twice as fast. AOTC Yoda and ROTS Anakin and Obi Wan were all faster than Sidious on screen.

    Even taking out the posse, it didn't look like the Emperor was that fast. Hell, from when he drew his blade back to when he thrusted at the first posse Jedi, there was about a full second delay. In that time, Anakin, Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan could all have killed Sidious where he stood. The posse Jedi were just slow to react. Sidious wasn't that quick.

    Anakin's speed and furious onslaught on Mustafar was easily the most impressive display of awesome offensive lightsaber skill we've seen in the whole saga and Obi-Wan's fast and damn near impenetrable defences were the best we've seen all saga too.

    In terms of Sidious vs Dooku, yes, I would say the Emperor is faster (and more psychotic) with his attacks than the Count, but Dooku is more precise and controlled.

  16. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but of course [face_dancing]




    finally and agreement :D *hands WEEBACCA a beer*
  17. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Funny how Dooku tried to seduce Obi Wan.

    I loved the look of complete shock on his face, right before Anakin finishes him off. If Dooku was as strong as Sidious then maybe Sidious would have been dead. But since he wasn't... well you know how that ended up.
  18. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Dooku is the master of form II, the best sabre on sabre style. I have no doubt that Dooku was the premier swordsman in the galaxy. However, that said, he couldn't overcome his fear of Sidious and his age by sheer skill alone.

    All this talk of Sidious being the master because he was the better swordsman is rubbish. There is no law stating that the physically stronger Sith must be master, only the stronger Sith.

    It should be obvious to all that strength is not always physical.
  19. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    The posse Jedi were just slow to react. Sidious wasn't that quick.

    The OS and novel say Mace's posse are three of the best swordsmen the Jedi Order ever produced. Lucas said "you have to be either mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" when someone asked him why the posse die so quickly. Its obvious that the scene where Palpatine kills Mace's posse was meant to illustrate the Emperor's amazing powers, not the ineptness of the Jedi.

    Kit Fisto blocked a few swipes from Sidious before going down, so there is no way in hell Sidious wielded a saber '500' times as fast as anyone else. Hell, not even twice as fast.

    In order to kill three Jedi in less than ten seconds during a four on one fight, I think the Emperor would have to be more than three times faster than the Jedi he killed.
  20. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    The possee's death was a by-product of their continued arrogance in their own mastery of the force and Jedi dogma.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I agree, even the OS states that Dooku was a master with a saber. I doubt that he feared Sidious, because I never got that impression from C.Lee on screen.

    Sidious was the Master because he had what Tyranus craved... Power. If the Count was more powerful, with the Force AND with a Lightsaber, then he would have overthrown Sidious. Plain and simple, THAT IS THE NATURE OF THE SITH. Why else would he be the apprentice?





    "It should be obvious to all that strength is not always physical." You speak the truth...

    ***
    "There is no law stating that the physically stronger Sith must be master, only the stronger Sith."

    Now this is where we are on opposite ends of the spectrum,

    Always two there are, no more, no less...
    One to embody power, the other to crave it...


    Darth Bane's rule of two...


    based on power, it is...
  22. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    I'm not sure if Dooku really thought enough like a Sith to immediately go for Sidious's throat if he thought he was more powerful (I don't think he ever thought he was more powerful, though. Sidious had him beat psychologically and it would just never come to that). The man is a Jedi and a politician, and unless you're arguing that he was just pretending to be a Jedi for 70 years, that had to be a huge influence on his behavior. Dooku is characterized by consistently offering opportunities to surrender, also not really a Sith trait.

    Dooku is actually puts out a lot more 'overthrow-my-master' vibes about Yoda than Sidious. Which is pretty interesting.
  23. Haynesworth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2005
    I completely agree. I slowed down this scene, and the part where Palpatine does his original jump and thrust of the first Jedi, the other one right next to him could easily have cut him in two. Inside, he stood there and watched and then got mowed down without even blocking. Maybe they were trying to show how fast Sidious is, but they didn't physically do it on screen. If Mace had gone with any other competent Jedi, he would have easily overpowered Sidious.
  24. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    There is no law stating that the physically stronger Sith must be master, only the stronger Sith.

    as soon as the aprentice can take on the master he does it.if maul and dooku didnt try to kill sidious is because they were weaker.that how it works for the sith
  25. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    I think my words are misunderstood. The Sith master does not need to be physically stronger than his apprentice, he merely has to be stronger when all other traits are considered.

    After all, one can easily beat a physically superior opponent by using superior experience, intelligence, guile etc...indeed, Obi-Wan used superior experience and patience to beat Anakin.
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