Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. JOHNNY-B Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2003
    star 2
    "as soon as the aprentice can take on the master he does it.if maul and dooku didnt try to kill sidious is because they were weaker.that how it works for the sith"

    Not true. Because Darth Plagueis was stronger than, Sidious. Darth Sidious killed him in his sleep...remember? So it don't always work like that. He just had the guts to kill his master in his sleep. Maul and Dooku didn't.
  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i think that palpatine's superior power is too much for dooku to counter it with just experience




    you think sidious would sleep in the same place than maul or dooku ???!?.

    no way.dooku and maul didnt take him out because they were too weak and too coward too do it.
  3. JOHNNY-B Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2003
    star 2
    Not really. Dooku was more than smart enough to take Sidious out. My guess is he was content to just fellow behind Darth Sidious. I mean again: Darth Plagueis was stronger than, Sidious - but Sidious had the guts to take him out in his sleep. So it doesn't really have to do with power.
  4. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i guess you are right...but to answer the topic of the thread how can anybody say for real that dooku is more powerful ?? GL clearly said that he was just a more movile OT vader who can use lightning but nothing more than that.
  5. JOHNNY-B Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2003
    star 2
    "no way.dooku and maul didnt take him out because they were too weak and too coward too do it."

    I'll agree with that. But I do think that Dooku was more than smart enough to take Darth Sidious out ( without taken him on with the force or lightsaber). He just didn't have the guts.
  6. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    possibly...but in a fight my money would be on sids all the way
  7. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6

    Sidious was a coward.

    Killing someone in their sleep is an act of quiet desperation.

    Sidious was afraid to face his Master, why else would he whack him while he slumbered?
  8. Darth_Gangsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 1
    I would still maintain that it is more about motivation --- because Lucas left sooo much out about this character, we never really get a true sense about what Dooku's motivations are. If you read LOE (I know it's EU, but it's good EU), it seems that Dooku is less interested in destroying Sidious and becoming the top Sith Lord and more interested in political change -- I will still maintain that Dooku in using the Darkside of the force for other means. He uses the Darkside, and is without a doubt a great Force user, but he does not seem to be completely consumed by the Darkside like Sidious or Vader. Saying this, I would say that Dooku is not as power-hungry as Sidious, does not use the Darkside to his full potential, and therefore, isn't as strong as Sidious in the Dark Arts.
  9. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    In the ROTJ novelization Vader has a thought that he would kill Palpatine when he felt he had learned enough from him. It might not be a matter of wether the apprentice is more or less powerful, just a matter of wether or not they can succeed one they feel they can go it on their own, and killing someone when they least expect it is not cowardly, it's actually quite smart.
  10. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    maybe it wasn't so much that sidious was cowardly, maybe he was just smarter. i mean why face someone straight up, if you can get rid of them faster and in a less risky manner, by killing them without confrontation? if plagueis was powerful enough to influence midichlorians he was a force to be reckoned with, so it is pure genius on sidious' part that he did not directly confront plagueis.

    dooku was every bit the opponent the emperor was, just on a lower level. sidious had power that dooku did not, simple as that. dooku was charismatic, elegant, downright regal, not to mention deadly as well as dangerous, but when it comes down to it, sidious is just too powerful. the films more than back me up, dooku is shown to be a superior combatant to the likes of obi wan and a young anakin, but is never shown to be on the level of yoda and sidious, or even mace. sidious took out masters in seconds. dooku was owned by a knight (albeit the chosen one) in seconds.
  11. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Actually yes... I agree! good post!=D=

    Plageus was killed in his sleep, an indication that perhaps he was even stronger than Sideous. Dooku could perform the same act, and pre-suited Vader could as well... (I'm not just being silly, but OT-Vader, with his breathing problems, would wake up half of the Death-Star in the attempt:p )

    Perhaps it was never Dooku's agenda to overtake Sideous - or perhaps it was, but he was patient... patience that resulted in his death...
  12. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    Thank you. :)

    I'm seeing alot of these "cowardly" remarks thrown around about Dooku and Grievous and even Sidious and I just don't see it. Long ago during the domination of Asia by China the armies would go out on the battlefield and go through this long ritual of announcments about who they were and how great they were and so on. It was like an over done honor thing. I don't recall the time frame but a mongolian army of some sort met an army of China on a battlefield and while the Chinese starting going through their announcments the Mongolians attacked an decimated the opposing forces.
  13. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Your welcome;)

    They had to... they were inferior. In love and war all is allowed - isn't it so? If you fear losing, use whatever tricks you have up your sleeve... for a Sith-Lord to let his apprentice near him in his sleep if folly - they know their nature...

    It's not cowardice not to attack, sometimes you must re-group and re-think in order to survive...
  14. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    I was just looking up things about the Art of War and proverbs of warfare; I think they apply rather well but this would take things a bit off topic, so I'll post them in the "Weak Dooku coughing Grievous" thread.

    EDIT: Better yet, I'll start a new thread.
  15. Darth-Inferno Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2005
    star 3
    (Pertaining to the original question) No, I don't think Dooku was as powerful, but I do believe he was better with a lightsaber. He had a technique. All Sidious did in the movie was slash wildly. All in all... Vader is the best... all else are underlings.
  16. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but vader was sidious's underling how can he be best ?
  17. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    I contend Dooku was on the same level as Mace, but a little weaker than Yoda and Sidious.

    One does not have to be an equal to win a fight. Obi-Wan beats Ani, Obi-Wan beats Maul etc...good enough to hang with a superior opponent until the opportunity arises is sometimes the key to success.

    Dooku's skill with the sabre, mastery of the light and dark side and his unmatched experience (except Yoda), makes him every bit as powerful as Mace.

    Mace may be younger and physically stronger, but is he as cunning or as patient? Can Mace call on the powers of the dark side as easily as he can summon the light? Did Mace have the courage to truely do what he felt was right?

    Do not discount Dooku, there is a reason why his death was Anakin's stepping stone, as there was a reason why Mace's death by Anakin's actions were important. Their deaths mirror the dark recesses of Darth Vader's character.
  18. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Marvin Hagler knocked out Thomas Hearns.

    Sugar Ray Leonard also knocked out Thomas Hearns.

    Hagler beat Roberto Duran by decision

    Leonard beat Hagler by decision

    Thomas Hearns and Sugar Ray Leonard fight to a draw in their rematch.

    Thomars Hearns actually KO'd Duran.

    Duran beat Sugar Ray Leonard by decision and then 7 months later Leonard beats Duran when Duran quits.



    My point is anyone can beat anyone, except for the younglings and padawans. Yes, there are certain levels when using the Force as far as ability. But when one is facing another as an opponent, take into account that these Jedi & Sith Lords each have midichlorians, potential, power, ability, experience, and knowledge. Count Dooku is no pushover. He was well respected in the Jedi Order for a long time before he left. If Darth Sidious was so powerful then why does he have a Jedi Knight face his Sith Apprentice? Why not have his Sith Apprentice face him to see who is best suited to be The Master Sith? Dooku could easily be Vader's master just as much as Sidious.
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but he is still weaker than sidious wich was the original question.
  20. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    So was Mace. So was Yoda. If all Sith apprentices are 80% of Sidious, then what of those who kicked Sidious's butt. Also I might point out that it's been already stated that Dooku was the one Jedi Mace Windu could not outscore when they sparred. Does that mean that Mace was able to beat even Yoda, but still could not get by Dooku? This is my point.

    I know what the question was. I was putting forth a different way of looking at it.
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    only one kicked sidious ass:mace . yoda lost and ran away.


    on topic. mace and yoda are not weaker but equal to sidious.

    lucas compares dooku to suited vader who is nothing more than a shadow of the emperor.

    the guy has chances of winning a fight, however those chances are thin.
  22. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Yoda lost and ran? What movie were you looking at? If my memory serves me precisely, Sidious ran for the door and Yoda blocked him. If my memory serves me correctly, Yoda countered the Sith lightning and it looked like Sidious was more hurt from the effects of Yoda's power. If my memory serves me precisely, then the impact sent both of them flying in two separate directions. Then the fight was over. Palpatine was a thug who had Clone troopers at his disposal. Yoda had no choice but to leave.


    Okay, Mace and Yoda are equal to Sidious. My bad. What I was trying to say that Sidious is weaker than they were, since Mace knocked him around and Yoda was able to put on a display of the Force that we've never seen in a SW movie.

    As far as Dooku, okay. Sidious is stronger. 20% isn't a whole lot anyway. It's not like Sidious would totally run over Dooku.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yoda left before Sidious contacted the Clonetroopers.
  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda lost and ran? What movie were you looking at?

    Sorry, but Yoda runs. He hauls ass down the tunnel
    and nearly soils himself as he shouts for Bail
    to get to him so he can go away. "Hurry!"
    He was tiny ass and tiny elbows from the moment he
    scraped himself off the floor.
  25. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Where else is he going to go? He's going to climb back up the Senate pods and search for Sidious? When the fight was over he may as well make his exit. When Yoda launches Sidious across his desk, and Yoda blocks him from escaping, I call that running.
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