Was Dooku as strong as Sidious?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Master_Obi-One, Nov 30, 2005.

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  1. Deichkid Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2005
    star 1
    Sidious wasn't hiding up there, and yes it is a possibilty to continue the fight, but yoda would have probably lost more convincingly.

    Yes. It means that Sidious wasn't looking for a fight unlike Yoda. So in a way, Sidious won because he is still alive. He couldn't run but still fought for his life and made the attacker retreat. Up to this point there were no clones.

  2. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    "Sorry, but Yoda runs. He hauls ass down the tunnel
    and nearly soils himself as he shouts for Bail
    to get to him so he can go away. "Hurry!"
    He was tiny ass and tiny elbows from the moment he
    scraped himself off the floor."

    LOL!
  3. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda lost and ran? What movie were you looking at? If my memory serves me precisely, Sidious ran for the door and Yoda blocked him. If my memory serves me correctly, Yoda countered the Sith lightning and it looked like Sidious was more hurt from the effects of Yoda's power.

    The OS and Commentary confirm that Yoda lost the fight. He certainly did run away after he fell off the pod.

    Running at the end of the fight is much more telling than runnning at the beginning. Yoda had witnessed the Emperor's power and realized that it was too much for him. The Visual Dictionary said Yoda was "overmatched".

    Yoda was easily hit by lightning when he walked into the Emperor's office and could have been killed right then and there if the Emperor continued the attack instead of gloating. The youth novel claims the Emperor knocked Yoda off the pod with a strong blast of lightning during their lightsaber duel. This shows that Yoda's lightsaber prowess is nothing more than "feeble skills" next to the full power of the dark side. The Emperor was able to overpower Yoda with lightning while the Jedi Master still had a saber on two occassions. Yoda was thrown much further as a result of the final lightning struggle because he is 500 times less powerful than the Emperor.

    "The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat."- OS Databank Entry
    "the Sith bested him."- OS Databank Entry for Yoda
    "the dark side is more powerful"- Lucas in AOTC DVD Commentary
    "He's better than Yoda in a way because he has the extra power of the dark side."- Nick Gillard
    "This truth: that he, the avator of light, supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...just-didn't-have it. He'd never had it."- middle of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?"- towards the end of page 396 of Stover's novel
    "Sidious' abilities are beyond anything we've experienced."-Gillard
    "His style is one in which you'll never get the better of him. It is ambiguous --- he'll fight less than you and draw you in; you're a sucker if you think you're going to better him."- Nick Gillard
    "He's gotta be even more powerful than the Jedi."- Rick McCallum
    "Yoda was going to get a tough time"- Ian McDiarmid
    "Palpatine is ambidextrous with his saber. He's THAT good."-Gillard
    "Sidious is a master of every weapon and every style."- Gillard

    Edit: Sorry, but Yoda runs. He hauls ass down the tunnel
    and nearly soils himself as he shouts for Bail
    to get to him so he can go away. "Hurry!"
    He was tiny ass and tiny elbows from the moment he
    scraped himself off the floor.


    =D==D==D==D==D==D=
    Excellent point. Yoda was terrified and ran away from the Emperor.
  4. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Good observations about the Count.

    I watched parts of AOTC and ROTS again last night. Here is something to ponder regarding the subject of Sith power in this thread.

    In AOTC, Yoda said: "Counnnt Dooooooku, The dark side... I sense in you..." Now we all know that Dooku is also the Sith Lord Tyranus, yet Yoda only mentions "sensing the dark side IN HIM."

    In ROTS, Yoda said: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader..." I found it interesting that Yoda would paint two Sith Lords with different colors. One Sith is consumed, while the other Sith is just... tainted?

    I wonder if these quotes from Yoda bear witness to the level of dark side power within each character.



    BTW, no matter how you look at it, because Sidious killed his Master while sleeping means he was fearful of facing Plagueis straight up. Brilliant? Yes, I'll give you that. Shrewd? Mos Def. Cowardly? IMO, yes, very much so.I think Dooku/Tyranus knew he could never overthrow Sidious alone. Why else would he have tempted Obi-wan on Geonosis?


    Edit: Brilliant post farrellg

    EDIT,2: Dooku was a fool to believe Sidious would intervene when confronting Anakin. Just proves to me that a Sith Master didn't have to be better with a saber or have more power. Just like Dark Lord states, "A Sith's real power lies in their will..."
  5. legion_of_me Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 2005
    star 1
    I totally agree nice post!=D=


  6. sabarte Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    Ehhh....I don't know. What else was he supposed to do? I'm sure Sidious would probably have killed him (or made his life very very unpleasant) if he refused also. And he clearly wasn't ready to overthrow. The main error he committed was in underestimating Anakin, remembering the little punk he fought in AOTC. Pissing off Sidious by killing Anakin (when he kicked him away - instead of going after Obi-Wan) would have been worth it if he realized Anakin was truly apprentice material. Again, I'm not sure Dooku really groks the Sith mindset deep down. He was forged in an environment where Force users cooperate.

    There's also the 'must obey my master' factor. After all, Vader walked into the same trap in ROTJ with his eyes open - and he didn't seem to be suggesting they team up to overthrow Palpatine on the walk up.
  7. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Both Vader and Dooku were too afraid of Sidious to overthrow him.

    I agree, the dark side = will and selfishness.
  8. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    LMAO!!!

    That's the best signature ever!!!

    Oh, and yes, it is in the will...;)
  9. tkip Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 3
    I think too many people are splitting peas here. Dooku was the apprentice of Sidious. Whether at some point, he would have challenged or worked from behind the scenes to overthrow Sidious, we'll never know.

    Dooku was soundly defeated by Anakin. Dooku had trouble with Yoda. Resorted to to cheap tactics and kept Yoda busy while making his escape. Yoda had a hell of a time with Sidious.

    Yet....... Sidious tried to run after Yoda throws him across the room. And he certainly did look startled.

    Yoda runs only after losing his footing and falling quite a distance below and knowing Sidious was still up there somewhere and that the clones were going to be called in at some point.

    He didn't run because Sidious was winning. He ran because the circumstances had turned against him. A whole world of diffence here.
  10. Rossa83 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    But Anakin was OBW's underling, how can he be the best? Sometimes the apprentice is better than the master - but the master has the knowledge...

    I must refrain myself from not saying that Anakin is better than OBW though, but he is more powerful... perhaps he was even more powerful in AOTC - and then he WAS an apprentice...
  11. Darkwish Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2001
    star 4
    Not a chance. Sidious was always stronger.
  12. Haynesworth Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2005
    A lot of people are skewing the argument by claiming that Dooku could beat Mace. However, there is no movie evidence for this at all. Even if it did happen in the EU, it was probably when Dooku was in his prime and Mace was a padawan. Everyone is just hating on Mace by claiming that Dooku beat him, but by the time of ROTS, there is absolutely no proof that Dooku is better than Mace.
  13. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6



    I agree with the first three paragraphs you wrote.


    I disagree with the last two, here's a couple reasons why:

    Sidious chucked pods around the Senate Chamber like I throw vanilla wafers into the wind.

    Yoda was only able to control one.

    When Yoda fell, Yoda was beaten, Clones or no Clones.

    If Yoda felt any different he would not have told Bail Organa, "Into exhile I must go, failed I have."

    ***



    IMO, Only a beaten and humiliated man would banish himself to self imposed exhile. Yoda went to face him, confident that he would end Sidious's rule before it ever got started.
    Didn't happen.



    To the victor goes the spoils, Sidious got the "Throne to the Galaxy", Yoda got the swamp. When you look at it that way, then all you can see is that Sidious won.

    If two fight, and, one wins, then what about the other?






    Yep... a big 'ol "L" for "LOSER!" on their forehead.

    I love the little green friend, but Sidious kicked his arse.
  14. Count-Tyranus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2005
    star 2
    Dooku didn't "escape" from Yoda. He was on his way out when the Jedi caught up to him in the first place. Dooku's goal was to get off the planet and to Sidious. He achieved that goal despite interference.
  15. Darth_Gangsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 1
    If Sidious and Dooku fight each other, Sidious wins everytime. As I've hinted at twice in this thread, IMO from reading EU, (outside Movie Canon of course), Dooku would never seriously try to overthrow Sidious. He did try to recruit Obi-Wan, true, but I'll argue that Dooku is trying to do this for political reasons. Dooku is never shown to be consumed by the Darkside like Anakin or Sidious, he just uses or takes advantage of the powers of the Darkside as an instrument to affect change. Of course, this is ALL speculation, unless you consider elements from outside the movies.
  16. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    I think that Dooku was genuinely interested in recruiting Obi-Wan as his Sith pupil. Of course, if Palpatine caught wind of this, he could hide his intentions by saying that it was for political reasons. If he weren't so darn incorruptable, Obi-Wan would be a very powerful Sith. I think Dooku wants to overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy alongside the student of Qui-Gon.
  17. Darth_Gangsta Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 23, 2002
    star 1
    True, Lucas has mirrored the Vader speech to Luke from ESB here. But, even still, in the movies, and novels, Dooku seems to be more like a disgruntled Jedi than anything else. Yes, he has adopted the Darkside, but for what reasons? Everything about him is political? Does he really care about the Sith taking over the galaxy? I think he is looking more for people to join his separatist movement and asks Obi-Wan because he wants powerful people around him to aid his cause. But, on the other hand, maybe in Lucas' mind Dooku was taking a more subtle approach to ousting Sidious.
    This is what is so maddening about Lucas and Star Wars --- I always want to know more!!!!!
  18. WitchKing66 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2005
    star 4
    I think that Lucas was genuinely not sure what was going on with AOTC

    AOTC was like what i do in life:

    CFD computational fluid dynamics; u have five equations for conservation of mass, three for momentum equations and for one for conservation of energy;

    five equations with four unknowns creates an impossible situation where the fluid mechanics equations cannot be solved analytically or numerically

    samething is with AOTC, there is too many unknowns with few known parameters, which creates an open-ended problem that cannot solved in a conventional method. thus some of those varying parameters needs to be 'fixed' so a better conclusion can be drawn. i think dooku is at the center of the problem;

    ex: do the jedi know dooku is a sith lord at the end of AOTC (IMO they dont, though they know he uses dark powers),
    do the jedi know dooku is a sith lord at the start of ROTS; (yes, its mentioned)
    than if they know he is Lord Tyranus, they should also know who hired Jango Fett and should take twice serving with the Clones (and please dont tell me, they he is a Sith but they dont know his Sith indentity)
  19. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6


    We are on the same page about Dooku, then. As I posted earlier in this thread:

    Good observations about the Count.

    I watched parts of AOTC and ROTS again last night. Here is something to ponder regarding the subject of Sith power in this thread.

    In AOTC, Yoda said: "Counnnt Dooooooku, The dark side... I sense in you..." Now we all know that Dooku is also the Sith Lord Tyranus, yet Yoda only mentions "sensing the dark side IN HIM."


    In ROTS, Yoda said: "The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader..." I found it interesting that Yoda would paint two Sith Lords with different colors.

    One Sith is consumed, while the other Sith is just... tainted?


    I wonder if these quotes from Yoda bear witness to the level of dark side power within each character.



    Worth debating, that's for sure.


  20. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    OOOPsss...

    stupid server...:mad:



  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    vader was never stronger than sidious IMO ,not yet in ROTS and deffinitely not in the OT.

    in that we agree,more powerful but not better
  22. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    I agree. And I'd add Yoda and Mace to that. They were all stronger than Anakin/Vader ever became.
  23. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    of course i meant yoda and mace as well but rossa only made reference to sidious and of the 3 top guys i think sidious with a saber is deffinitelly the bottom one,his enormous force power make up for that though
  24. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    Agreed. Sidious' Force power deserves incredible credit.
  25. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4
    Actually, I'm not so sure they know his Sith Identity. Jango reveals that he was hired by a man called Tyrannus (no Darth-name is revealed, so the name itself doesn't tell it's a Sith they're dealing with) on one of the moons of Bogden. Count Dooku never reveals that his name is Tyrannus. The Jedi continues calling him Dooku both in AOTC and in ROTS. So I'm not that sure they know that Dooku is Tyrannus (or that Tyrannus is a Sith or some ordinary person). :)
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