PT Was Dooku's character used properly in ROTS?

Why is Mace Windu in TPM, he doesn't do anything much, he isn't even given a name?
Why is Bail Organa in AotC, again he doesn't do much.
Set up.

Lucas had three films, that is a luxury that very few filmmakers are ever afforded.
But I don't think he took full advantage of that.

Having Dooku in TPM would first mean we would not need the talky scenes in AotC about him because we already know who he is.
Second, it would add some weight to the scene where he makes the offer to join him to Obi-Wan.
If we had met him and seen that he was a good guy and that his cause had some merit, then we might think that Obi-Wan could actually agree.
As it is now, the scene is just a repeat of the ESB scene with none of the weight that that scene had.
We have zero reason to think that Obi-Wan would even consider this.
And it would make his reveal as the bad guy in AotC be something of a surprise instead of the totally expected thing it is in AotC.

And to me, if the seps movement was a genuine thing that Palpatine managed to subvert for his own goals makes it more interesting.
Having it be something that he totally created makes it less interesting and it makes the seps less interesting as well.
In the films they come across as little more than Sith drones that only do what Sidious tells them to.
They have little if any motivation of their own.
The seps apparently have demands in AotC but what those are we are never told.
So they are reduced to little more than cardboard bad guys. Evil, greedy capitalists that are evil because the plot needs them to.

And beyond that, setting up the idea of systems wanting to leave also flows more smoothly into AotC when that has become a big problem. Again, set up.

Again, if Palpatine is able to make use of some people's genuine feeling that the republic is broken and that they are better off away from it and twisting it to serve his purpose makes his accomplishment more impressive than him commanding a bunch of drones to do his bidding.
As the PT is, Palpatine does not come off as smart or clever, instead he wins because everyone else comes across as morons.

Making the seps into people that only do what they do because Palpatine tells them to as opposed to people that he manipulated into doing what he wanted makes him more smart and cunning, at least to me.
And it would make the war more tragic, we could see that there are good people on both sides and that neither side really wants a war but both sides are played by Palpatine.
That he is able to manipulate both the republic side and the seps side without either of them knowing about it, that would make him a master manipulator.

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And to me, this is selling your films short. Instead of having several well developed characters, we have one or two and the rest are just filler. Placeholders that serve their function and then are replaced.
Again this is three films, you could do a lot with it.
But instead Lucas settled for less. At least to me.

When he made ANH, Lucas had no idea if he could make more films.
Here he did know that unless TPM bombed horribly, which would be very unlikely, he had three films.
And as I said above, he did use it to some extent.
But I think he could have done more.

Take Griev, imagine if he was introduced in AoTc as the general of the new seps droid army and we saw him take out several Jedi and manage to escape, again build up.
Introduce a new character and SHOW that he is a threat.

The emperor is talked about but not seen in ANH, seen briefly as a hologram in ESB and then we finally meet him in RotJ.
Jabba was talked about in ANH (original version) and again in ESB and finally we met him in RotJ.
Build up. And here Lucas had to wing it quite a bit as the success of ANH was quite unexpected.

In closing, if you feel that Dooku was good enough, ok.
I just think that there was potential for more.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yes, but why make that pawn an experienced Jedi Master? The entire trilogy is set up to explain why a Jedi, and a hero would become a servant of evil. So, it sort of defeats that purpose, by having another older and supposedly wiser Jedi Master become a servant of the same evil, and not even bother to explain why that character would suddenly switch sides. I know some will point to Dooku becoming dissilusioned after Qui-Gon's death, but this still doesn't make it more credible that Dooku would join the side responsible for Qui-Gon's death, the side that represents the opposite of everything he once stood for. Add to this, that not even the Jedi seem all that bothered or shocked by it, so why should we, and by extension why be shocked by Anakin's turn? Afterall Dooku's turn and his character are treated by the story as fairly insignificant, just another excuse for a couple of lightsaber duels. All in all Dooku is a poorly developed character, an example of sloppy story telling, who's only saving grace is, that he was portrayed by one of the most charismatic actors ever to appear on the big screen.

 

I think Dooku was underutilized in AOTC, but his main purpose in ROTS was to push Anakin even further to the Dark Side. In that way, he played his part in the story. I don't really know what other things he would've contributed to surviving longer in Sith.

 

This is something I've been struggling with recently.

The PT feels like a rather good story juggling lots of concepts that then realized it didn't have enough time to fully develop all the concepts it set up. In other words, if it had been 4, 5 or even 6 movies instead of 3, these concepts could have been given the detail they required leaving the viewer awestruck.

But 3 movies or about 7 hours isn't really that confining. There have been single movies with a lot of moving parts and themes that accomplished what the PT couldn't do in 3.

So I've begun to think that the confinement wasn't caused by the run time, but the Star Wars format was incompatible with the PT ideas. That being the format for each film takes place in only a few days without any way to explain what happened outside of those days except somewhat clumsy and boring exposition. It might be what gave The Clone Wars cartoon series a bit of an advantage. 30 minutes to present a theme, exit, next episode could be a day, week or month later.

The PT story might have been better suited for a Breaking Bad low episode, few season TV series format with the final turn getting the big screen treatment.

 

Yes and no. Dooku served his purpose, the purpose of his character according to Lucas was to show that Jedi could fall to the dark side foreshadowing Anakin's fate, and by killing him on Palp's order against the Jedi code to take his place (without fully realizing it yet).

Why Dooku changed sides is only alluded to in the films (a lot of original script dialogue was removed in this regard). This is only consequent considering Dooku is a mere pawn and Anakin is the only character in the Saga where we get proper motivational writing for his turn (based on character, history and circumstances): Vader/Anakin in the OT: nothing as to why a good man turned a monster. Kylo Ren: he wants to become super-evil by killing his daddy (killing millions is not evil enough apparently) but why does he wish to become evil? Answer for all SW villains: seduced by dark lord - traditionally pretty sloppy character writing that.

That being said, I would have loved to see more from this Dooku guy, my wish was of course granted in the canon TCW film and great TV show. But I understand that Lucas had to clean up the villains one by one, Dooku, Grievous, The Federation and the Separatist army so that the main central villain could shine and reveal himself to the anti hero: Palpatine.

 

Two things,
First, Anakin's turn is really only about the power to save Padme. That was the thing that really mattered. So him murdering Dooku or not, I would still see him siding with Palpatine over his promises to save Padme.
So Dooku's death at Anakin's hands ultimately had little to do with his turn.

Second, what Dooku could have done. Play the part that Griev played. The one that the Jedi have to kill/stop in order for the war to end.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I don't see how casually brushing aside his murder of a helpless person because of a mixture of personal revenge and fighting for the order he wants to save works.

Yet this takes away from the overall thread of the movie. Now instead of Anakin killing Dooku (which was wrong) yet not wanting Mace to kill Palpatine (which is also wrong) except that it's right or wrong depending on what he wants. ie his selfish needs.

Compared to that having Dooku simply around for scenes that Grievous does (that works better for the story) as the adversary.

Let many including myself awestruck. The main story is that of Anakin. Everything else is ultimately secondary.

It did accomplish them though. The central story has to take precedence.

That is how Star Wars works. I don't agree about the clumsy and boring exposition. The exposition is only a part. Most of it takes place within the visual and musical storytelling.

Impossible really. It took 10 years and several hundred million dollars to make 6.5 hours of live-action.

 

More Dooku is great in theory since the idea of his character was very interesting, but given that I think ROTS is one of the least flawed entries in the series it's hard for me to argue for any major changes. I like it as it is, with Dooku's death serving as just a taste of the darkness to come in an opening that is mostly aiming to be one last dose of classic Star Wars delight before the focus returns to the PT's inherently more somber and unsettling nature. Also, I think the building up of Dooku only to see him abruptly killed off effectively demonstrates the urgent reality of the ongoing war circa ROTS, ups the viewing stakes by providing a shocking, sudden scene of violence that in turns makes the need for resolution more meaningful. If one big baddie can go this early, what could the rest of the film possibly have in store? That's a question I asked myself during that first theatrical viewing, and that question was answered in a huge way, multiple times over.

 

Why is it a bad thing to show that even an older and supposedly wiser Jedi is capable of being seduced by evil in a similar manner to Anakin? That's the whole damn point of the trilogy!

 

Slightly off topic. In AOTC, do you think Yoda was more interested in capturing and then saving Dooku from the darkside or was he just trying to land the nice beheading blow in their duel? Do you think the Jedi found points of empathy for Dooku or was he just a Sith that needed some dyin' in their eyes?

 

I´m rather surprised to see many sharing what I imagined was my unpopular view of Dooku´s character. For me, he was quite wasted, because he simply is a terribly shallow character, with little background, motivations, or development. Every characteristic he was, he mostly got it from Christopher Lee, a fantastic actor that could pull off something like that, but the character himself, is not really profound or interesting.

One thing I really liked about the OT was just what Samuel Vimes was saying: we knew about Jabba or the Emperor way before we actually saw them, and they were characters already important to the plot. Same with Bail Organa´s connection with the Jedi, the backstory for Vader vs Obi Wan, the Senate, the Kessel Run, the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell... there were so many elements there just to immerse you into the world they were presenting to you. They didn´t need to show you everything, it was so big there were many other things going on, before and during the events of the trilogy.

On the other hand, in the prequels, Dooku comes out from nowhere and we are supposed to understand this is a character that everyone knows and has been around forever, but he seemed like an afterthought to me. He clearly wasn´t planned to show up by the time they were filming TPM, and considering they very much new they had 3 movies to tell the story, it´s disappointing.

Dooku´s whole background only serves to make the point that Anakin is not the first Jedi to turn to the dark side, something that could have been mentioned as a passing comment or a small piece of dialogue with no more than a minute of exposition. That´s every reason for him being in the movie right there, but I always felt that Dooku would have been far better being the PT´s Tarkin, a powerful man with no Force powers. Just keep the political shrewdness (instead of a military one) and drop the Jedi part, giving him a different background. Since Grievous suffered the same problems of Dooku, and didn´t have an actor of Lee´s caliber portaying him because he was CGI, I would have preferred to keep Maul around and focus most dark side related angles on him...

By the way, I like Dooku. I just think there was room for him to become something more than what we finally got...

 

Dooku is a more developed character than Jabba or the Emperor (in the OT). Why the hell does it matter if we didn't hear his name a movie before he appeared? These are shallow, nonsensical criticisms.

 

In all fairness, I do regret to place blame in Dooku´s character, because it´s a lot more to do with how the storyline was worked... not Dooku´s fault at all, as I said I like him just fine.

That being said, exactly what makes Dooku a more developed character? Jabba is pretty iconic to this day, because there is a number or characteristics you can name from the way he was presented to us. He´s depraved, sadistic, egotistical and cruel, yet he´s smart too, not only to resist Luke´s powers, but to suspect Leia´s true intentions. We know he is dangerous from the very first time his name shows up, and we can see in his very design that he´s very much an exaggeration of a lot of negative qualities we can assign to a "corrupt" being, like a gangster. And still, we manage to see the real power of that barely moving being, and the reason behind his ability to control his criminal empire: he´s ruthless, yes, but the main thing is, he´s smarter. That´s a pretty powerful message, I think, and not without merit, to get it in half an hour of screen time.

I believe Dooku had far more potential than what we ended up getting, because there were a lot of roads to deepen his backstory, motivations, etc. I´m not talking about Dooku in TCW or novels, just the movies. That´s what I meant, but if I sounded harsher before and you felt offended, my apologies.

 

Because it makes Anakin's turn less significant. The story treats Dooku's turn as just a plot device to get from point A to point B. It's like writing a story about a treasure hunt, only to have the heroes continually stumbling on hidden treasure haphazardly along the way, or introducing a character in ANH, who mentions in passing he's already shot down a Death Star before, and he was drunk while doing it. It's just not very good story telling, because it diminishes the shock when the hero does turn bad. It's afterall not that special. For one it happened before, and secondly it's treated by the story as not very significant.

 

No.

More developed does not equal quality. He may have had more "development" than Palpatine or Jabba, but his role in the story was comparatively listless and perfunctory, along with the rest of the Separatists.

 

He could have crippled his only means of escape. The whole double/triple duel in AOTC seems rather contrived and unnecessary. Why does Dooku wait for them to catch up? And why doesn't any of them try to seal off the exits or stop his craft from escaping.

Do the Jedi go into battles secretly hoping that the enemy gives them the excuse to bump them off but in the Jedi way? Why is the dialogue between Jedi and Sith so belligerent and bolshie? Aren't they the "negotiators"? The never seem to even consider reasoning with a Sith in spite of the fact that none of the Jedi have ever even met a Sith in the past thousand years.

 

Does it have to be a shock when the hero turns bad? The prequels are backstory to the OT, we already know Anakin Skywalker is going to be the villain. That's why we're watching the prequels, to see this exact transformation.

It only becomes a problem if a first-time viewer watches the films in episodic order, which I wouldn't recommend for obvious reasons.

As for Dooku's portrayal: part of the Darth Jar Jar theory says that Dooku was hastily written in AOTC because the fanbase hated Jar Jar and his big part as the main villain in Episode II had to be scrapped, so they invented Dooku as a replacement. His character was later explanded in the Clone Wars miniseries, where he was shown sending an assassin to Anakin, training General Grievous in lightsaber combat (which was referenced in ROTS) and sending a droid army to destroy an important Jedi Temple on Illum. By the time ROTS was released, the miniseries had "prepared" Dooku to have Grievous take over as the main villain.

 

I wouldn't recommend it either, but it is Lucas' intended viewing order. So, if Anakin's turn is supposed to be a shock to the newbie, not unlike Vader's reveal in TESB was to the old crowd, why the clumpsy introduction of another insignificant villain, who also happens to be a former Jedi? That's what boxers call telegraphing your punches.

 

Come on. The Darth Jar Jar theory is nonsense.

 

Although I don't buy the entire Darth Jar Jar theory, the way Dooku is presented does suggest that he was hastily written into the movie at the last minute. That's why I was so happy we got more of him in the Clone Wars miniseries, so his death in ROTS didn't feel like Lucas wasted him.

A final word on the viewing order: Lucas can say what he wants about his 'intended viewing order', but the way he wrote the 6 movies simply don't make episodic order the best choice for first-time viewers. That's why I don't mind Dooku turning to the dark side showing that this happens, or the foreshadowing of Anakin's turn in AOTC when he slaughtered some Tusken Raiders.

 

It has to do with how Lucas boiled down the reason for Anakin's turn to one thing and one thing only, Padme.
The rest doesn't matter.

In the shooting script, Anakin turned earlier and it was more due to dissatisfaction with the Jedi and other things. And he was with Palpatine when Mace and co entered the room.
Lucas changed his mind and made Padme the focal point, she is the reason why Anakin does all this.
Sparing himself the pain of loosing her is all that matters to Anakin, the rest of the galaxy can burn for all he cares.

So his murder of Dooku ends up not really mattering. Anakin could have spared his life and it would not have mattered one bit. He still would have turned because of Padme, regardless what he did to Dooku.

So we have him murder a defeated Dooku and Anakin feels bad about if for a few seconds but then the issue is forgotten.

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Except it doesn't.
Anakin kills Dooku at the request of Palpatine, feels bad about it for a few seconds and then goes about his day. He certainly didn't like Dooku but would he have killed him without Palpatine's prompting? I doubt it. So it wasn't really he wanted very badly.

As I said above, after Dooku's murder, the issue is not talked about. Anakin doesn't mention it to anyone and the Jedi never asks.
What is more of a focus is the rift between Anakin and the Jedi and how he feels that they are both acting dishonorably and possibly treasonous and how he feels they don't trust him.
So when he sees Mace try to kill Palpatine, this has more to do with the scene than him killing Dooku earlier.
But again, it all boils down to Padme, remove her and Anakin would not have gone to Palpatine's office and he would not have lifted a finger to stop Mace.

So instead of having the boring waste of time that is Griev, have more of a character that is actually interesting.
Or have the murder of Dooku later and build up Anakin's desire for revenge over the film.
And he kills him and it becomes a turning point for him.
Dooku was a fairly central character in AotC but he is killed off with barely a thought and little consequence.

@The_Phantom_Calamari

First, both those character do far more with the screen time that they have and have better buildup.

Second, because Dooku's character was basically tossed aside early on in RotS, that development wound up not really mattering.
Maul had little to no character or development. He was there to be the obvious bad guy, fight, kill Qui-Gon and then die. Kind of like Lurtz in FotR, there to kill Boromir and then die.
As characters go, he isn't very good but if you are going to have a character do just this and then die then I can get not wasting time developing them.

Dooku was developed more and it seemed that something interesting could come from this.
But then the film goes "Oh wait, he is not important, forget him" and kills him off.
That seems a bit of a waste to me.

If the character was not going to be any more than this, why not simply have him as Count Evil von Nasty and have no backstory or connection to the characters.
The basic story or plot does not really change.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Why does it diminish the shock? Dooku exists to make it clear that it is possible for a Jedi to be seduced to the dark side. That increases the sense of danger and moral peril we feel for Anakin's sake. It increases the drama by showing that the rules of the universe amply allow for Anakin's failure, making it clear that there is no protective plot bubble surrounding him.

It's essentially the same sort of device as having a major character die early on in a movie to increase the sense of danger you feel for the other characters. The fact that a major character already died doesn't necessarily decrease the shock if another one dies later on.

It's also essentially the same device that Lucas uses in TESB with the mention of "another." By implying that Luke can actually be replaced as the hero of the series if he dies, it heightens our fear for him in the duel on Bespin, because, just as in Anakin's case, we know there is no protective plot bubble surrounding him. And yet, if he were to have died, it still would have been incredibly shocking, wouldn't it? That's the beauty of such devices. They actually do allow you to have it both ways.

The idea that Dooku's turn is treated as insignificant is just straight nonsense. It kicks off an entire war. The audience's empathetic connection to Dooku is intentionally tamped down, but that's precisely to avoid the thing you're complaining about: diminishing the emotional impact of Anakin's turn.

 

So his murder of Dooku ends up not really mattering. Anakin could have spared his life and it would not have mattered one bit. He still would have turned because of Padme, regardless what he did to Dooku.

This is my biggest problem with Dooku, Anakin killing him literally changed nothing. Anakin killed others in the Clone Wars series as well. It meant nothing.

 

I don't think he was effective. As was mentioned above, his death changed nothing and didn't really matter. I was bored with the old man from the start because I was hoping they would replace Maul with something more like Maul. More Dark Side in your face type angle, less political, less military. I didn't like Grievous' use either.

 

Killing Dooku put him further under the influence of the dark side and made him even more susceptible to turning because of Padme. Everything that happens to Anakin and everything that Anakin chooses to do is a step along the path that leads him to the Chancellor's office in Episode III. Even then he was wobbling on the brink and might have gone the other way, were it not for Mace attempting to murder Sidious. In Star Wars, the dark side is like an addiction, and the more you give in to it, the more it holds sway over your actions. That's why it would be such a big deal if Luke murdered Vader in Episode VI. He could repent of his actions afterwards, just as Anakin did in Episode III, but that wouldn't necessarily make up for all the ground he'd just lost to the dark side.