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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Was Dooku's character used properly in ROTS?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by The One Above All, Sep 14, 2017.

  1. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 20, 2016
    If that was the intention I didn't feel that at all from the storytelling and it failed for me and many others in this thread. If Anakin had been chided for his killing of Dooku by the Council and he had been forced to face consequences for the actions than having him hypocritically calling out Mace would have actually carried narrative weight.
     
  2. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    How did you not feel that from the storytelling? Anakin's execution of Dooku is presented in a very negative and chilling light. Why is it necessary for Anakin to be chided by the Council? The consequences are the guilt he feels over violating the Jedi Code. The narrative weight of Mace doing the same thing comes from the fact that Anakin has been grappling with the guilt over his own actions and the feeling that he's "not the Jedi he should be," when in the end Mr. Jedi Council himself is now hypocritically saying that none of that ever mattered.
     
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  3. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Mace. The straw that broke the camel's back in Anakin's turn. And people are up in arms over Jar Jar.
     
  4. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    I disagree. Which is the greater shock?

    That Anakin is a troubled dude, he's dangerously close to the dark side, but they would never let the main hero become the villain. OMG, the main hero becomes the villain!!!!

    That Anakin is a troubled dude, he's dangerously close to the dark side, and the story is moving all the pieces in place for him to become Sidious apprentice, and it's happened before, just look at Dooku. Yup, the main hero becomes the villain...

    You don't telegraph a shock reveal.

    I don't think the PT actually works that way. Lucas spends far too much time telegraphing his punches, Dooku being just one of them. Anakin's demeanor from AOTC onwards being another. Obi-Wan and Yoda being away from Coruscant yet another. However, the difference between Luke and Anakin is, that Lucas doesn't really create any realistic alternative paths for Anakin. Almost anything that happens to Anakin, separates him further from the Jedi, and brings him closer to Palpatine. The "other" would be the Jedi uncovering evidence, that Palpatine is lying to Anakin, and having to get to Anakin in time for him to discover the truth. This would create tension, and a realistic alternative path for the hero to step away from the brink of disaster, and come out victorious. No such alternative is created for Anakin.

    It's not nonsense. There's literally nothing significant that would have changed to the story, if Dooku had just been another Sith apprentice like Maul. He has no real connections to any of our main heroes, outside of really superficial ones. His turn is not used to create any tension between him and the Jedi, or between the Jedi themselves. He's just another Sith Lord, that needs to be dispatched. As such the fact that he's a former Jedi is insignificant.
     
  5. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2003
    Chris Lee was mainly cast as a last attempt at putting him in a Peter Cushing movie. Remember GL always spoke of Ep 1-6 as ONE FILM. ONE STORY. Chris Lee was too old to do a lot of the stuff George needed so they put him briefly killed him off and transferred the villian status to Greivous only to pass it Anakin in the same film.
     
  6. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I don't know what "shallow" in that sense means. A combination of "little background, motivations, or development." cover pretty much every single Star Wars character in one way or another outside of Anakin and Luke. Then there are characters that get motivations and development like Obi-Wan, Padme, Qui-Gon, Yoda, Han and Leia. Then there is Palpatine who we get a lot more about in terms of how he achieved his goals.

    Since Lucas cast Lee to play him that in itself plays into everything the character has much like his friend Peter Cushing did for Tarkin who had far less to do. It's the same for Lando or Mace. They are only 2 hour+ movies so getting characters across is about presenting them in a way that makes you think that there is a whole lot more going on outside of what we see in the movies which is the great strength of Lucas' style. The characters exist outside of their roles in the movies.

    Exactly. They don't need to show you everything. This is exactly what the prequels did just as the originals did. There is no difference outside of more things going on during the prequels.

    I don't see how Dooku comes out of nowhere. He's clearly been around for decades either as a Jedi or now as the Separatist leader. The Emperor that was referred to in ANH was not the Emperor that we saw in either TESB who was also clearly not the Emperor seen in TESB.

    I don't follow your argument here. What is it exactly that you want to have happen? On the one hand exposition that sets up Dooku at the start of AOTC doesn't seen to be enough but then you want exposition to tell not show that a Jedi has turned to the Dark Side? That seems to be at cross purposes.

    That is a whole other another argument then.

    I get that people like Maul but his staying in the movies as the character he is undermines several key elements of the story. For one if Maul is that good then he wouldn't be defeated by Obi-Wan in the first place. Then he has to stay hidden for a decade before reemerging. Then it wouldn't work to have both him and Dooku at the same time. He simply couldn't take Dooku's place. Even if all of this is worked around then he still ends up being killed in ROTS by Anakin. Anakin killing Maul is far less impactful than Dooku. Also if Maul is that good (which in this version he'd need to be) then he's also planning to take out Sidious and is aware that Palpatine is grooming Anakin to be his apprentice.

    So now it's creating a new dynamic which shifts the trilogy much like Vader's popularity shifted the focus of the OT. Instead of Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan and Sidious now Maul in some new incarnation (much like Vader changed from ANH to TESB then again in ROTJ) would have to go from bit player to the center.

    Yet if he's just a politician then he'd simply do a lot less and be like Tarkin who really couldn't do anything or have any real impact on Anakin's story because he couldn't duel him, cut off his arm or be the focus of his anger later on. Dooku being a former Jedi is what makes this all work.

    That was clearly the intention and I felt that from when he did it to his moment of decision to stop Mace. I really don't know what much more could be done in the way Lucas' method of Star Wars does things.

    His style is simply not one of endless character exposition to reveal the dark secrets. In Star Wars terms ROTS is as verbose in that sense as Lucas ever has been from after the opening rescue sequence to Anakin's decision.

    Why would they chide him? They don't know that he executed him. They would assume it was done in defense of Palpatine and Obi-Wan. Anakin is the only one outside of Sidious who knows what happened. His hypocrisy carries weight because he knows that it is. He didn't believe that what he did was right but he did it anyway for selfish reasons. He wants to stop Mace not because he really cares about it being the right thing to do but because he needs him for his own selfish ends. This is the point.

    We keep getting back to this very circular (and dizzying) point that Lucas at one and the same time uses both too much and too little dialogue. Yet we know that for Lucas dialogue is never the focus but the support for the visual and musical storytelling. It gives great support. I'd argue that ROTS is the best supporting dialogue of any of the movies.
     
  7. Ithorians

    Ithorians Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Shallow for me in that context means that there isn´t that much that I can find in Dooku´s character that are defining characteristics that make him unique, with an internal logic that makes you put yourself in his place and hopefully understand his motivations. For me good character writing and good casting aren´t exactly the same, thats why I made the distinction.

    For me the difference is that with the Emperor´s mention in ANH, we knew he was the man behind the decisions being made in the Empire´s side. Dooku was a very, very important Jedi master during TPM, close to Yoda, Mace Windu and such, and yet he doesn´t get a passing mention. I´m not saying it´s a sin, I´m just saying that I missed that earlier reference to the character. It´s a personal preference.

    I hope that my previous answer could help you understand my reasoning.

    I´m saying that Dooku´s reason of being was to make a point that didn´t need a whole character to be made. On the other hand, I think that Dooku had great potential and could have been explored beyond that fact.

    That´s a very valid perspective too. There are ways to work around those problems, because the story could have been different in the first place to adapt for changes in roles and dynamics, it´s not necessarily the same history with one character in place of another.

    Agreed again. There is a point in making Dooku a Jedi, no doubt about it. My feeling, however, is that as a politician, just as a former Jedi, he will do as much as the story requires him to; there is no reason for him to be automatically forced to do a lot less...
     
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  8. Tosche_Station

    Tosche_Station Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2015
    To be fair, Lucas did a bit of that in the OT as well, in ESB and involving Vader, to be more precise. Vader telling Luke that the Emperor has "foreseen" Luke "destroying the Emperor". Well, it means, for one thing, that Luke will (most likely) survive his fall down the Cloud City shaft....of course who actually ends up destroying the Emperor is a surprise, if the vision was that specifically Luke would destroy him, and not merely a Skywalker. Then, the fact the Vader offers to have Luke join him so that they could rule together, kind off telegraphs that he will have Vader kill the Emperor (though not quite telegraphing that he will do so for positive motive reasons than merely just wanting to get rid of his master).
     
  9. listrie

    listrie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2017
    I think the Count always seemed like a last minute addition to the story anyway, he was not in the first prequel but only in the second one! Then he was in the third one and was defeated easily! It was interesting how he was a Jedi and not really a Sith, wanting to expose the sith Sidious , but then in the third prequel movie he was just another evil boss to be beaten. The Clone War cartoon did give him more to do and that was cool, and the duel in Revenge of the Sith was pretty cool too, more like the ones in the original movies than the one in 2 which was 2 much! But he should have had more lines, that duel is about the characters... This is how it should have gone... After Anakin grabs Dooku's Saber

    Dooku- Are you going to kill me boy? I see my own apprentice in you, young Skywalker. Qui Gon Jinn would have loved to train you. Unfortunately, thanks to my aquaintince, Maul, that is no longer possible! A pity, really...

    Obi Wan- Anakin, kill him!

    Anakin- I shouldn't

    Dooku- Your master is right, you must!

    Palpatine- I need him alive! He must stand trial...

    Obi Wan- This is a Jedi matter, Chancellor...

    Dooku- And I am a Jedi... And I will be at death, when I join the force... And Qui Gon will be there waiting for me. I had hoped to take you with me, but you still have much to learn...

    Palpatine- Don't listen to him, Anakin, it's a sith plot!

    Anakin- it's not the Jedi way...

    Obi Wan- Do it, Anakin!
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    So in this fanfic is Obi-Wan secretly a Sith too? :confused:
     
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  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Lol.
    Yes, character portrayals very consistent with the films there.
     
  12. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I for one see the wonderful potential of Christopher Lloyd as Dooku.
     
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  13. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I don't see how that is telegraphing. What that does is say something is possible.Dooku is clearly not the main hero or a main hero kind of player. The Jedi are clearly wary of anyone falling to the Dark Side which is why they are so careful about their training.

    This is like saying in the original context we should have seen something because Darth Vader who was a Jedi (and therefore a good guy) became a bad guy.

    I don't know what telegraphing means in that sense. This is akin to saying it's telegraphing that Luke will destroy the Death Star and that he will have to use the Force because it can't be done by computer calculations.

    No. All that means is that in the normal course of affairs the hero fights and overcomes his fears alone.

    Of course he does. Anakin can chose to follow one of the paths of destiny set before him just like Luke. Luke had many paths before him as Anakin did.

    That is what happens in ROTS. Anakin is the one who gets the evidence then tells the Jedi. He knows the truth of Palpatine being Sidious. That is the totally amazing aspect where Sidious keeps telling a very crafted version of the truth. The alternative is right in the movie as he could have stayed in the temple or not done anything. If only Mace had arrested Palpatine instead of wanting to kill him.

    Well if it's insignificant then the point about his turn being some telegraphing is also insignificant.

    Dooku being a former Jedi is why he can be the leader he is. A man who was a top Jedi and guardian of the Republic is now saying they are corrupt and systems need to break away.
     
  14. listrie

    listrie Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Sep 12, 2017
    Obi Wan a sith? Well, I do have a fan fiction along those lines, but it's more of a parody...
    My idea is more of a complete re imagining, trying to make Palpatine less obvious in his evil plan and add some more complexity to Obi Wan and the Jedi code! But probably the best way would just be to give the character more to do rather than focusing so much on Grevious.
     
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  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Re: Luke, that is not what RotJ said at all. IF Luke had killed Vader, he would have turned, no ifs or buts about it. There would be no way to repent afterwards, he would have turned to the dark side and become Palpatine's new servant.
    Which is one reason why I feel the PT don't quite match the OT. In the OT the lesson was clear, if you use the Force to kill in hate, you turn. But Anakin can murder over and over again and not turn.

    The killing of Dooku had no discernible impact on Anakin to me and in the first part of RotS I found the character more likable and less of the jerk he was in AotC.
    And this was not the first time that Anakin murdered someone out of hate. He murdered a whole village of men, women and children in the previous film.

    What did have an impact was what happened to Shmi. He missed her since TPM, in AotC he had visions about her suffering but he ignored them until he could not deal with them anymore.
    But he came too late and she died in his arms. He felt terrible and did very terrible things as a result.
    And afterwards he didn't want to feel this way again and made a dangerous promise to not fail like this again. And so in RotS, when he has dreams about Padme dying, it makes sense that he does not want a repeat of Shmi and so he wants to do anything to avoid it.

    The killing of Dooku is irrelevant here. It does not matter at all.
    Had he left Dooku alive or if Doooku died of a heart attack during the fight, it would have changed nothing.

    It is fine that Lucas wanted the turn to be about Padme and only Padme. There is build up towards that and it doesn't come totally out of nowhere. I would have liked Anakin to come across as less gullible and that he had some proof that such a thing was possible. But it mostly works.
    However this meant that Dooku and what happened to him was incidental to Anakin's turn.

    So the character of Dooku is reduced to just an obstacle to knock down and there is no later pay off.

    @Qui-Riv-Brid
    He comes out of nowhere story-wise and plot-wise.
    Lando and Yoda comes out of nowhere in the same manner in ESB. They were alive during the events of ANH but were not mentioned in any way.
    But we meet Yoda sooner than Dooku and while Lando is introduced later, his character is not one whom the entire plot revolves around.
    Dooku is a vital character plot wise, he has created the seps and that is what is driving the whole film. So he is super important but comes out of nowhere.
    Same with Griev, he is also an important character plot-wise but comes out of nowhere.

    Vader is in ANH and the emperor is established as is Jabba.

    Also what do you mean by ".. we saw in either TESB who was also clearly not the Emperor seen in TESB"
    How many emperors did we see in ESB?
    Or are you talking about the OOT vs SE?
    Also, why is the emperor that is talked about in ANH not the same as the one in ESB?
    I know that the ANH novel makes the emperor more like a figurehead and controlled by others etc.
    But that is not in the film. Sure ANH does not mention that he is a Force user but nor does it say that he isn't.

    Not really.
    After watching TPM it was very clear to me that Shmi would come to a tragic end and that would have a major impact on Anakin. So her death in AotC was not a surprise.
    And with her death and what Anakin said afterwards, it also became very clear that Padme would die in the next film and her death would play a major part in Anakin's fall.
    And no surprise, that is exactly what happens.

    So events are telegraphed.
    That Dooku is a villain is also telegraphed. The film tries to pretend that his motives are maybe not evil but very quickly Padme accuses him of trying to murder her and so he is painted as the bad guy.
    And no surprise he is.
    Even the death of Qui-Gon was on the back of the soundtrack album.
    That spoiled me and I was trying to avoid spoilers but didn't think that looking at the back of the soundtrack would do that.

    That seems like a very narrow view. Only a former Jedi can lead the seps, no one else could?

    Imagine the following, take Padme, her planet was blockaded and the senate was unable to act.
    Her planet was then invaded and some of her people killed. She traveled to the senate, at great person risk, to plead her case. And they didn't believe her and wanted just to discuss this in a committee. So she is forced to take matters in her own hands and she goes back and manages to free her people. And afterwards, the man responsible for all this walks trough the courts and never gets convicted for anything.
    Wouldn't she feel a bit betrayed by the senate and feel that the republic has lost it's way? That small people are no longer protected and the big companies can trample all over them while the senate does not lift a finger.
    Now imagine if she was the focal point of a seps movement, she argued that the senate is no longer interested in the good of the people, they are only interested in filling their own pockets and only serve the interest of the big corporations.

    I could totally see such a thing working. Maybe not with Padme but the queen that follows after her.
    It would make sense in that the senate in TPM is partly ruled by the TF and possibly other big companies. So they are interested in keeping things as they are and are the source of the corruption.
    But the seps are worlds that are fed up with big money buying off senators and only serving the interest of the big business.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  16. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    The most boring villain in the whole serious. As boring as Grievous is ridiculous. Which is alot.
     
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  17. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    I recall no instance where the character was used improperly (whatever that encompasses).
     
  18. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    I think Dooku was used perfectly in the prequels and in just the right quantity. He serves his purpose for the story and his purpose for Palpatine.

    For Palpatine, Dooku is the face of the Separatists. The charismatic rebel leader that can start and run a war. But when the war ends, so does Dooku's purpose. We get some additional stories with Dooku in The Clone Wars but really don't learn anything new about him because it's all there in the movies.

    Dooku may be directly linked to the Clone Wars more than any other character in the films. Even the Clones go on after the war. Dooku is the Sith Apprentice during the Clone Wars.

    We get a new villain in each prequel. It's interesting how late in AtoC Dooku is physically introduced on screen and really unexpected that he is killed off so early in RotS. All of this serves the overall six movie Star Wars Saga to make Darth Vader more important and dangerous. Vader survives where Maul, Dooku, and Grevious don't. Vader also has the the individual traits of all three prequel villains.

    I also like the parallel between Count Dooku and Old Obi-Wan "Ben" Kennobi. They really are similar but also very different characters. Seeing A New Hope before Attack of the Clone takes away one of Dooku's biggest surprises - he's an old man but is still a very powerful and dangerous fighter. Anakin just charging in to fight isn't such a bad strategy if Dooku physically was an 80 year old man. But seeing the movie for the first time I was thinking "Anakin sure was dumb to do that," and not "Wow that's crazy for Dooku to be so old and destroy these two young Jedi in a fight."
     
  19. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Dooku the plot device works but to me, Dooku the character is not used all that well.

    And that is part of the problem I have with the PT.
    Some of the characters are there just to serve the plot, not be interesting on their own.

    And would anything be different if he had been just another Sith and not a former Jedi?
    Not really.
    So making him one and giving him some connections to the other characters were mostly a waste of time since nothing came from it.

    And I don't much get this.
    Why intentionally neuter your villains? Why make them less than what they could have been?
    Just so that Vader seems more impressive?
    To me, this is selling your film and your story short.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it creates a bit of oddity.
    Dooku is quite old, much older than Obi-Wan in ANH.
    Yet Vader was quite confident that he could take him and he knew first hand that old age is no hindrance to a Jedi.
    Obi-Wan in ANH could pull a Dooku and Vader is not as strong as he used to be, nor as quick.

    And someone watching ANH after AotC would wonder why Obi-Wan moves so slowly and why he does not jump around like a frog on acid.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor