Was it Qui-Gon's intention to let Maul kill him?

Me and my friend were having a discussion about Qui-Gon and how such a powerful Jedi (i.e. one who is able to discover the way of becoming one with the Force) was killed by a Sith who his Padawan was able to defeat.

Does anyone else think that it was Qui-Gon's intention to be killed? Watch the dinner-table scene in Anakin's home in Episode I, we all know Qui-Gon's 'I wish that were so' line, does this mean more than we first realised?

Was just curious to see if this was a possibility or just my imagination running away with me. (Because we all know how many new 'theories' have been emerging since the release of Episode III...)

(And yes, I am new to posting here, but I have been reading these boards for four or five years... I've searched the forums for this topic and I can't seem to find it anywhere, but if it is I'll no doubt be redirected.)

 

I don't think it was Qui-Gon's intention at all. Although Obi-Wan ended up killing Maul, he did so because he caught him off guard. Qui-Gon had every intention of teaching Anakin himself.

Maul was the best duelist around at the time, and he showed it.

 

No, Darth Maul caught him off guard by cheaply elbowing his double bladed lightsaber into Qui-Gon Jinn's chin, which he obviously wasn't prepared for. That gave Maul just enough time to stab Qui-Gon.

 

I agree with Darth_Spartan, no way would Qui-Gon pass up the chance to train the chosen one to let a Sith kill him ... though maybe what you're referring to is the fact that he started to get a sense of his destiny by that point (and maybe even that of the Jedi order itself) ... hence the line, "I wish it were so."

 

It did occur to me. First of all that's a great reference, the dinner table I mean, it didn't cross my mind until now. I think it was his intention to merge with the force, but he wasn't able to prepare himself in time. Essentially I think his mediation was him attepmting to ascend if you will, but he was interupted. So when fighting maul he was already at the sudden disadvantage because maul had picked his own battle ground, and then he had an added disadvantage of being caught off gaurd while he was weakend.

So the way I view it is, he new that he couldn't defeat Darth Maul alone, so his intention was to use the situation to his advantage by preparing the technique he had been developing for god knows how long, but he was interupted before he was ready to execute it, so he couldn't become one with the force and could only add his presence to it. So he did make the decision too die and merge halfway through the fight, but not the way it happend. Obi-wan on the other hand had enough time off screen to prepare himself to face vader and merge. If you recall Vader said, "Escape is not his plan." Hope that answers your question.

Edit: It was his intention to teach Anakin, but he probably figured that as a force Spirit he could teach him anyway, and if he was one with the force the council couldn't do anything about it either.

 

"It was his intention to teach Anakin, but he probably figured that as a force Spirit he could teach him anyway, and if he was one with the force the council couldn't do anything about it either."

I like that idea Sepharih, especially since Qui-Gon's voice is the first we hear after Anakin makes his initial* step towards the dark side (i.e. the Tusken slaughter) in Episode II.

He is most definitely reflecting the mentor role when he yells 'Anakin, no!'... For me that line was very reminiscent of his warning in Episode I 'Anakin, drop!' (A warning which ironically was also attempting to protect Anakin from the dark side.)

(*I realise this point is open to a lot of debate, but you know where I'm coming from.)

 

He is most definitely reflecting the mentor role when he yells 'Anakin, no!'... For me that line was very reminiscent of his warning in Episode I 'Anakin, drop!'

That would be because it's the same line. They re-used the sound in AotC.

And no, Qui-Gon didn't let himself get killed. He died because Maul was a better fighter than he was. Obi won because he's a better fighter than Maul.

 

nar i don't think that he wanted to die...

i mean who would want to let someone else kill them

 

"That would be because it's the same line. They re-used the sound in AotC."

Obviously, but its repeated for a reason; to help us make the link. (You'd be surprised how many people had trouble working out who was talking in Yoda's vision.)

But thats getting a bit off-topic... (My bad.)


"nar i don't think that he wanted to die...

i mean who would want to let someone else kill them"


Well anyone who knew they would be more powerful (and able to do more good) in the afterlife for starters...

"If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
- Obi-Wan, Episode IV.

 

"Obi won because he's a better fighter than Maul."

What movie where you watching, Obi-wan got his ass kicked down into a melting pit. The only reason maul lost was because he got to cocky and decided to toy with Obi-wan when he should have force pushed him off of what he was holding on too. Maul won the battle, but his overconfidence cost him the war, just like every other sith in the films.

In fact I consider Qui-gon to be a much greater swordsman than Obi-wan, but Luck/theforce was on Obi-wan's side that day.

 

Couldn't have put it better myself...

 

No, Darth Maul caught him off guard by cheaply elbowing his double bladed lightsaber into Qui-Gon Jinn's chin, which he obviously wasn't prepared for. That gave Maul just enough time to stab Qui-Gon.

How was that cheap? Maul used a simple technique to cause confusion in Qui-Gon over what his next move would be, there's nothing cheap about elbowing your opponents weapon when you're in the middle of a life or death duel.

Something I've always noticed in that duel was the moment right before Qui-Gon was killed. Qui-Gon backs away from Maul and has a bewildered look on his face, Maul has confused him with his unorthodox fighting style and Qui-Gon can't figure out how to beat Maul's style. I don't think Qui-Gon wanted to die, I think he was overwhelmed and surprised by a better fighter and his different fighting style, and that's what led to his death.

 

i don't know if Qui-Gon wanted to get killed, but i can think of more reasons for him to

1. Obi-Wan would be angry enough to defeat Maul who is a better deulist than both of them (though i am not a Darth Maul fan)

2. The Jedi Council would have pity for Qui-Gon making them more likely to sanction Anakin's training as it was the last wish of a loved Jedi Master.

3. Obi-Wan would agree to train Anakin for the same reason, it was Qui-Gon's last wish.

4. The Jedi Council would more quickly accept Obi-Wan to be anakin's Mentor after he proved himself by destroying a Sith Lord.

 

I can think of no reason that he would let him. He had a lot going for him, as he was about to raise and train The Chosen One. There are plenty of other ways to teach Anakin about the mortality of Jedi besides getting killed himself.

 

I never said he died in order to teach Anakin about the mortality of the Jedi...

If he did allow himself to die, chances are it would be primarily so he could watch over Anakin more effectively AND so he oculd go on to train Yoda and Obi-Wan in their greatest hour of need.

(Though GarthSidious' other suggestions for Qui-Gon allowing himself to be beaten are also quite good as well.)

 

"What movie where you watching, Obi-wan got his ass kicked down into a melting pit. The only reason maul lost was because he got to cocky and decided to toy with Obi-wan when he should have force pushed him off of what he was holding on too. Maul won the battle, but his overconfidence cost him the war, just like every other sith in the films.

In fact I consider Qui-gon to be a much greater swordsman than Obi-wan, but Luck/theforce was on Obi-wan's side that day."


How many badasses does Kenobi have to kill for people to believe he's the man?

Kenobi > Maul: Took advantage of his overconfidence/arrogance, in other words, "weakness".

Kenobi > Fett: Even though, there was no obvious outcome, Kenobi was mopping the floor with Jango. If they'd only install slip-resistant soles on those damn Jedi boots!!

Kenobi > Grevious: You all saw it. He pwned this quadra-saber wielding psychopathic cyborg, who by the way, has a rep for annialating jedi.

Kenobi > Jedi Purge: He was in ANH........Nuff said.

 

Amen brotha man.....

 

Amen.

 

Maybe using the word 'intention' was a bit too strong...

It just seems like Qui-Gon has this extreme sense of 'destiny' (for lack of a better word) throughout Epsiode I:

1. His previously stated 'I wish that were so' line when discussing the mortality of the Jedi.

2. The extremely heavy look on his face when Anakin's pod works for the first time. (Anakin's success in the podrace is one of the biggest deciders in the path this entire story will take.)

3. The somewhat unusuallly timed 'pep-talk' he gives Obi-Wan when they land on Naboo for the last time

It's as if he knows that eventually the time will come when he may need to sacrifice himself for those he loves and by the time he meets Maul, he has accepted this possibility.

This doesn't necessarily mean he goes into the fight with Maul expecting to be killed (as it may have sounded when I first started this thread) but with the knowledge that, should he be defeated, it will be for the advantage of all those he cares for. He does fight with all of the power he can muster; there is no doubt about that... (Though one could argue that the reason he fights for so long is that he needs to keep Maul occupied so Padme [et al] can capture the viceroy.)

Maybe this modification on the argument will be more accepted?

 

No, I don't think that was his intention at all.

First, there's there look of shock on his face when Maul runs him through. Then, there's the training of Anakin that's been mentioned. Plus, I seriously doubt he would intentionally leave his Padawan alone to face such a formidable opponent, who was pretty evenly matched versus the both of them.

Not a bad theory, though. It would definitely fit his character.

 

Qui Gon did not purposely lose... personally I think the reason Obi-Wan won, was because when Qui-Gon and Maul were fighting he was paying full attention to Qui Gon, and when he killed Qui Gon, I think he got a little cocky and dropped his defences... thus Obi Wan was able to kill him

 

"First, there's there look of shock on his face when Maul runs him through."

Expecting it or not expecting it, I think anyone (whether they meant to die or not) would have a look of shock on their face if they were run through with a lightsaber.

"Then, there's the training of Anakin that's been mentioned."

But Qui-Gon has proved a much more effective mentor from the afterlife...

"I seriously doubt he would intentionally leave his Padawan alone to face such a formidable opponent, who was pretty evenly matched versus the both of them."

I have to concede on this one, it doesn't fit the theory very well, unless of ocurse Qui-Gon somehow knew that Obi-Wan had it in him if the situation became dire enough...

But that's a pretty weak argument on my behalf.

 

"I think the reason Obi-Wan won, was because when Qui-Gon and Maul were fighting he was paying full attention to Qui Gon, and when he killed Qui Gon, I think he got a little cocky and dropped his defences... thus Obi Wan was able to kill him"

Agreed. It was after all Maul's gloating that got him killed. (Had he simply been done with Obi-Wan while he was dangling above that pit... Well things would have been very different.)

 

Yeah Maul pretty much won both duels. He just got too cocky though.

 

Obi-Wan killing Maul the way he did is one of the worst and most ridiculous movie deaths EVER! I can imagine Lucas on set talking to Ray Park: ?OK, you just stand there, don?t move, and let him cut you in half. Sound good??