PT Was it smart of Lucas to insert unexplored elements in the PT?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Xalfrea, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 3
    By unexplored, I mean elements that were not established previously or just came out of the blue. Off the top of my head:

    The Trade Federation (Who are they and why should we care about them?)
    Sifo-Dyas (Master...who? Was he ever in Episode I?)
    The Clone Army (Precursors to Stormtroopers? Cool, but when did this happen? Where was this in Episode I?)
    Count Dooku (How and when did Sidious get Dracula to be his apprentice?)
    General Grevious (Wait, this guy was in a cartoon? I thought only the movies counted!)
    The so-called "Tragedy" of Darth Plagueis the Wise (Darth...who? Was he ever in Episode I and II?)

    Looking back, the way George wrote the prequels was as if he knew that Expanded Universe stuff was out there and just figured that any who want to know more can just look at that. Which, for the hardcore Star Wars fan, is well and good, but for the general, casual fan, they'd be lost.

    I've talked with people about this, and a few say that as one of the flaws of the prequels. A certain internet reviewer that talks about comic books also said as much, that if you require supplementary material to watch your movie, then you've failed as a filmmaker.
  2. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Do the viewers understand the basic plot? Do they register the emotional drama? Do they understand what happens to the main characters and what their relationships are?
    In short, do they grasp the message of the movies?

    In that case, GL has not failed.





    "I understand"
    /LM
  3. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 3
    In that regard yeah.

    For the sake of argument, lemmie post what that certain comic book internet reviewer said.

    After some responses...
  4. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    let's watch the personal insults-Darth Boba
    What do you mean with "not previously established"? If we only include something in a movie that was "previously established", wouldn't that stop any development? Something new is always needed.

    No
    The Trade Federation
    1.) No, you shouldn't care about them. They are the bad guys.
    2.) Watch the movie. They're a corporation trying to improve their profits through oppression. The movie makes that clear.

    Sifo-Dyas
    No, he wasn't in Episode I. Why should he? He was no part of Episode I's narrative. He was a Jedi Master who ordered a Clone Army and was later killed, as suggested in the movie, by Count Dooku.

    The Clone Army/Count Dooku/ General Grievous
    Again, why are they supposed to be in Episode I? Give me a reason. There is no need for them.
    Where is Boba Fett in Episode IV? When was he born? How did Vader know him?
    Where is Yoda in Episode IV? He trained Ben, cool, but when did that happen (if you ignore the prequels, which someone like you probably should)? He was a Jedi Master...what's that? What's the job of a Jedi Master?
    The Ewoks...why didn't they show up on Hoth and helped the Rebels?
    Lando Calrissian...he is supposed to be friend with Han Solo...when did that happen? Where was that in Episode IV? How do they know each other?

    [b[watch it[/b]If you need all that information to understand the story...well, then you simply don't understand the story. Sorry to say that.

    Oh, let's not forget the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise
    It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith LEGEND.
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Jan 2, 2013
  5. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 3
    Well, you certainly got me there.

    It's not that they were "unexplored", maybe that was a bad way to put it. Among the people I do come across, stuff like that seems to be common criticisms.

    Then again, considering the originals did the exact same thing, maybe the people I talked to were just the usual analist fans.
  6. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    I was about to write that. The originals did the exact same thing. It's a Star Wars trademark.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    A couple of counter points.


    Um what a Jedi Master does is explained in the movie, he trains Jedi. Yoda not only trained Obi-Wan but he has trained Jedi for a long time.
    When it happened, well around the time when Obi-Wan was Lukes age so obviously a bit before ANH.
    With the PT, Yodas absence in EP IV is rather noticeable, as is Palpatines. Both had big roles in the PT but suddenly we see neither of them.
    Palpatine is atleast spoken of but Yoda is not even mentioned.

    As for the OP, having new elements in the PT is perfectly fine but some of them could have benefitted from more development.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark.
    MrFantastic74 likes this.
  8. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Let's watch the insults people.
  9. Team Padme Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    The whole trade federation thing kind of confused me :/
  10. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    What's the Empire, and why should we care about some rebellion? Who knows, but that sure didn't ruin Star Wars. The series is famous for casting us into the middle of the action. No, it's not a flaw, rather a way to make the audience feel more involved. Notice how each movie starts in the midst of some conflict? Show more, tell less. It's worked like a charm.

    Also, I'm a bit confused by the Grievous argument. Yes, he was introduced in a cartoon, but doesn't anyone remember Boba Fett? The supplemental materials are helpful to those interested, but aren't essential to the movies.
    V-2 and Alexrd like this.
  11. TheMadHatter Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2009
    star 4
    Sifo-Dyas (Master...who? Was he ever in Episode I?)

    ----


    this is the only thing that should have been explored..

    and no I don't read EU so "go and read blah blah" won't wash with me, or a casual viewer.
    V-2 likes this.
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I don't have a problem with the Trade Federation per sé, but there are some serious flaws in the TPM plot compared to ANH. Who are the Empire, well we quickly learn that they are an oppressive regime ready to rule by fear and by military force. They have built a powerful super-weapon which they are prepared to use against anyone who might oppose them. They're not even too bothered about who opposes them; they kill Luke's family because they bought some droids off the Jawas. They destroyed Tatooine in order to test their super-weapon, and to punish a daughter of that planet.

    The little R2 droid has important information stored (which turns out to be the plans to the super-weapon). On their way to Alderaan they discover the remnants of the destroyed planet and get captured by said super-weapon. The story goes on with a pretty simple, consistent logic.

    In TPM we have the Jedi sent to 'negotiate' a resolution to the blockade. According to EU this was at the instigation, or suggestion to Valorum, of Palpatine but I don't understand what Palpatine would hope to gain by doing so. It makes more sense for that to have been the work of Valorum. But, that is EU and in the movies there is no reason to think Palpatine/Sidious has anything to do with this. But, what of the Jedi's choices. Toward the end of the movie we see the good guys discussing how imperative it was that the command ship be destroyed, and Gunray captured....but, hang on. Weren't the Jedi on the command ship with Gunray in the beginning? Would it not make more sense to sabotage the command ship - thereby rendering the invasion at an end and/or capture Gunray?
  13. Darth Chiznuk Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Um, did you take a bathroom break or something during the whole part where Qui-Gon is attempting to cut through the door to get access to Gunray and the bridge? They were attacked by Destroyer Droids and had to make a get away.
  14. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    You misunderstand, I didn't mean that the Star Wars movies lacked explanation, I meant that we were gradually let onto the details as we found out with the characters.
  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    Uurm yeah, down to the planet where the droid army was being deployed for a massive invasion.... In order to do what? to "warn" the Naboo? Think its a bit late for a warning. And, how were they intending to do this? By stumbling across some feckless Gungan, being taken to an underwater city and taking a transport from there. Other than that serendipity, what plan did they have in mind?

    They don't discuss leaving the ship because of the danger they face there (which is far outweighed by the presence of an army of invasion, including tanks etc.) but instead by this vague notion of warning the Naboo...
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeaah, because nobody improvises ever in unexpected situations. /s

    They were sent there to conduct negotiations; that ended rather quickly. Odds were pretty clear that actually warning the Naboo in time were low, but what else were they supposed to do, exactly? Hang out in the air ducts on the TF ship?
    V-2, Samnz and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Oh, I agree, but that is what is lacking in some of the PT. Its not simply that we're placed into the midst of something - as you rightly point out that is an ongoing aspect of Star Wars - its that things aren't really explained, and nor is there the same logical, causal flow of the OT.
  18. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Make their way within the ship to capture Gunray and/or sabotage the command ship. Not only was this something that the Jedi were supposed to do in AOTC (scenes that were cut from the movie - and why Ki Adi-Mundi and a number of other Jedi suddenly appear on the scene in the arena on Geonosis), we actually have two Jedi attack and enter a ship known to be swarming with droids in order to rescue the Chancellor.

    Really, which is better; Facing droids on a ship, by which means you may be able to capture Gunray and/or disable the droid army - both aspects which Qui-Gon seems clear enough about when they return to Naboo - or go to the planets surface in order to somehow (without any idea how, or to what end) warn the Naboo of the invasion which is already upon them. Then to, presumably, run the blockade. Why not find Gunray's own transport and wait on that? The least sensible option, it appears, was the one that they took.
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Still not seeing how that is the "least sensible option".

    Capturing Gunray? They tried that and got chased off by destroyer droids. If anything he's going to be even more surrounded by droids after that.

    Disable the command ship? Again, they've already tried that and the entire ship is literally alerted to their presence, so it's going to be even more difficult to do so now. Staying isn't really an option.

    Those options were already tried. Clearly preserving the government of Naboo was far and away the best option available to them.
    Darth Chiznuk and Alexrd like this.
  20. FryingpoorGreedo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 22, 2012
    star 1
    I find this thread odd, how can't you introduce new things? Especially if the things from the old films don't exist yet.
  21. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    Preserving the Government by flying the head of state through a military blockade in an unnarmed ship.....? Yes, it all makes sense now.
  22. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    As opposed to what, exactly? Staying on the planet with an entire army looking for them? Oh yes, very sensical. You're not giving any options better than what they did.
    son_of_skywalker03 and V-2 like this.
  23. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    I don't understand some of your complaints. Count Dooku is appropriately introduced as a new character in Attack of the Clones and so is the Clone Army. The Trade Federation was never a part of the original trilogy but you learn all you need to know about it in the prequel trilogy. You don't need to know everything about it other than its role in the story. The Trade Federation represents a powerful and corrupt private interest that has too much influence in governmental affairs. The bit about Darth Plagueis is just a short story Palpatine mentions in passing to Anakin to rile up his interest in the dark side. That is all. No one is going to be confused about who this Darth Plagueis is because the character himself isn't relevant at all.

    I do think Syfo-Dyas and his role in the clone army wasn't elaborated on enough and Grievous kind of came out of nowhere, but to think that anything else you mentioned is a real problem is kind of silly.
    Last edited by Death T, Jan 2, 2013
  24. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Grievous gets more explanation than Tarkin does, TBH. The EU pretty well created Tarkin's title, power, and relationship to Vader and the Emperor. Grievous OTOH gets introduced as the Sepper Supreme Commander and Dooku's right-hand man (as well as brief fill-in when Dooku is killed in regards to Sidious) between the opening crawl and the first scene he's in.
    V-2 and Darth Chiznuk like this.
  25. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    But that's just it. How were they intending on preserving the government of Naboo by going down to the planet where an invasion force of droids was on its way, looking for them? If they weren't intending on staying on the planet then...they were planning on flying the head of state through a military blockade in an unnarmed ship. Despite having no idea how they were going to get to the government they went down to warn...
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