PT Was it smart of Lucas to insert unexplored elements in the PT?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Xalfrea, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Well just to play Devils advocate here.
    First, the stated reason, "To warn the Naboo" makes little sense. They are going down on the TF's invasions ships so by the time they reach the Queen then she would already know about the invasion. Saying "To help the Naboo or save the Queen" would make more sense.
    Second, they stow away on ships without knowing where on the planet those ships go. They could end up anywhere, on the other side of the planet for all they know. (Which seemed like it really happened as they had to through the core of the planet to reach the Naboo capitol.)
    If that happens then getting to the Queen will take time and she will be a captive long before then.
    Third, other options include, stealing a ship and try to leave and go to Coruscant. The situation has now gone far beyond a simple tax dispute. The TF has, in effect, declared war on the Naboo and by extension, the republic. Warning the Naboo is too late, the invasion is already underway. But warning the republic is very important. The TF might not stop with Naboo, they might attack other planets so warning the senate or Valorum would be very important. They could also try and find some comm equipment and contact the senate and warn them that war has started.
    One could wonder why, during all that time on Tatooine, that neither Qui-Gon or Obi-Wan tried to use some Tatooine equipment or facility to contact the JC or Valorum. And no, not the comm on their ship, but go into town and either use the SW version of an internet cafe and contact the JC or simply by some radio gear and use that. I doubt that the TF can monitor ALL comm traffic in the entire galaxy.

    Lastly, in RotS two Jedi are on a ship, on high alert, filled with droids and a Sith Lord and that did not seem to be suicidal for them.
    Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan made short work of the battle droids but they could not quickly deal with the destroyer droids. It was a stand-off, as Qui-Gon said, so the destroyer droids were not close to killing them but the jedi could not quickly dispatch them so they left. One does wonder why they simply did not toss them away with the Force while the destroyer droids were rolling towards them, before their shields went up. Or move around the corner and wait for the droids to start moving as they had to lower their shields in order to move. At least I think this is what the movie showed.

    But yes this is nitpicking of the highest order and not something that bothers me.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  2. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    And who says that there wasn't a face to face meeting?
    Why I find Sifo-Dyas handled poorly is that AotC is in part a mystery, what is the deal with this clone army, who ordered it, why, who tampered with the jedi archives etc. Many questions are set up but then there is no resolution, the whole thing is just dropped. Since the clone army is such an important plot point in both AotC and RotS, who ordered it is not irrelevant trivia.
    And then there is the question what the jedi did after AotC. They had been handed a clone army under very dubious circumstances so did they try to investigate some of the many mysteries they found and if so what did they uncover?

    The audience can try and fill in the blanks and assume that Sifo-Dyas had nothing to do with it and it was all Dooku and Palpatine's doing.
    But if this is so and the Jedi did some digging, would they not be able to reach this concusion as well? If yes then what would they do next?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  3. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    To be fair, those type of questions could be made for every movie.

    Anyway, you can understand the story just from the movies without going in EU stuff. Of course that it is better if you read that because you understand other things and some of them are story in itself but you don't need to read the Darth Plagueis novel to understand the legend of Darth Plaguies The Wise. I liked the novel very much, but from the movies it is clear that Palps mentioned something about someone who cheated death, in order to make Anakin need him.

    How did Dracula became Sidious apprentice. Really? Seriously? To satisfy you it seems that you'll need unique actors for every movie. How did Matilde became Anakin's wife? How did The Godfather became a devil and how did his advocate became Neo? How did agent Smith became Arwen's father? etc etc.
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  4. Valairy Scot Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    1. Presumably *all* the ships available to steal WERE on Naboo.
    2. Interference - as the good Governor said, all communications were down. Contact via the Force are you suggesting?
    Darth Chiznuk likes this.
  5. Darth Xalfrea Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2013
    star 4
    Hmm...guess I need to work on my sarcasm. Those questions weren't my own. They were a mixture of joking guesses as well as genuine reactions from friends and others I've talked to.
    Last edited by Darth Xalfrea, Jan 3, 2013
  6. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    1 So those big TF ships don't have ANY smaller ships capable of traveling to other systems? Seems very stupid if you ask me. Nute used some kind of ship to go to the surface and we see that even small ships are capable of travelling in hyper space. The ship the Jedi arrived in was blown up yes but that there are ZERO other ships onboard sounds a bit far fetched to me.
    2. Communication between Naboo and the republic was cut of yes but the TF ships are outside of Naboo. They cut of Naboo from the rest of the galaxy but that does not mean they cut themselves off as well. Besides it would be pretty stupid for the TF ships to jam themselves so that they can't talk with each other. And Nute was able to contact Sidious, who was on Coruscant.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  7. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Not to mention the whole escape has always bothered me. They are running through a blockade (and as Family Guy pointed out with the escape from Hoth -- we have literally infinite directions in which to flee, but we're going to head directly into the enemy blockade) in an unarmed ship and then the shield generator gets hit... How did that happen if the shields were up? If the shield generator can be hit when the shields are up, then aren't the shields pretty useless? Then the shield generator is repaired and all tension is lifted. Then why were they in danger in the first place with the shields up?

    On top of that the TF ships stop firing at them after the shields are restored.
    Last edited by janstett, Jan 5, 2013
  8. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    When the bad guy's motivations are unclear it certainly doesn't enhance storytelling and it makes the audience fear them less. If you don't really care about any of the characters, protagonist or antagonist, it's bad storytelling. Characters are not supposed to be interchangeable cardboard standees.

    Why is an organization called the Trade Federation blockading trade? You'd think they would want more trade, right? For that matter why would a bunch of interstellar traders have a droid army in the first place? Why are they picking on Naboo? (Had the Jedi asked that question alone they would have unravelled Sidious' plot).

    What exactly did Sidious promise them? How is he going to help them? They seem to be risking a lot -- their lucrative business, their good standing in the Republic -- for no apparent reason.

    And finally, when they are arrested at the end of TPM, I find it incredibly difficult to believe they wouldn't just roll over on Sidious and tell the Jedi everything they knew.
    Last edited by janstett, Jan 5, 2013
  9. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    It's explained in the opening crawl.


    Probably for a similar reason the British East India Company and the Dutch East India Company had armies.
  10. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 27, 2012
    star 2
    You know what's weird? I was 11 when I first saw TPM, and I understood it just fine. I figured it the time that, while more convoluted than the OT films, it wasn't that hard to follow.

    Then years later, it turns out that I was wrong - it's apparently an incredibly complicated film that no one can understand. Ergo, I'm a genius! Which to be honest is fantastic news. :D
  11. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    The worst thing for me is the Jedi and how stupid they are. They know Anakin fears for his mother, so (leaving moral arguments aside) did they not go back and buy her freedom, hey presto a boy's worries for his ensaved mother removed. Also if they have decided to train a boy they think is dangerous why have Obi-wan do it when he became a Kinght only a second ago. Why not give him to an experienced teacher who could spot the danger signs early.

    Have a couple of issues with Sith as well.

    1) Grevious. He is ment to be the proto-type for Vader. Vader though is a clunky cripple in a lung suit. Grevious can be super fast, skitter up and down walls and survive in vaccum yet Grevious is the proto-type!

    2) Vader telling Luke that Obi-wan once thought as you do, Would you really say that about a guy who watched you burn alive.

    3) Anakin Skywalker: The man talked about in the OT seems to bear no relation whatever to the whiner in the PT.
  12. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Vader is not clunky. And he has the Force, unlike Grievous.

    Obi-Wan did try to talk to him before the duel.

    Really? Let's see.

    Great pilot. Check (from podracing to flying "half a ship").
    Cunning warrior. Check (takes out the Sith Lord, not afraid to go against the odds).
    Good friend. Check. (saves Obi-Wan's skin a few times, even when he doesn't have to).

    And he doesn't whine more than Luke.
  13. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Is The Phantom Menace really that hard to understand? Really? It can't possibly that hard to comprehend since my five year old son understands it perfectly well.

    Your statement here makes me think you didn't even read the opening crawl. There is a line in it that says, "The taxation of trade routes to outlaying star systems is in dispute." See taxation hurts their profits thus why they are disputing it. Pretty simple, I thought. The opening crawl goes on to say, "Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to the small planet of Naboo." So again taxation is bad and hurts profits so by blockading Naboo they're putting pressure on the Republic to repeal the new taxation which is good for them.

    Oh, I don't know maybe lower taxes, reduced tariffs, the abolition of all trade barriers (if you've read the script for AOTC this is exactly what Count Dooku promises them). I don't think it's that hard to figure out (again my five year old was able to figure out the free trade part which I think is motivation enough).

    Yes because it is unfathomable for rich trade barons to assume they might be able to bribe their way out of any charges when the entire system is corrupt and they are a huge part of that corruption. That's never happened in our own history, right...
  14. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Of course Vader is clunky. That's the whole point, he is a burnt cripple straped to a giant lung, Lucas himself made the point that Palps is trying to turn Luke (the next best thing) into what Anakin could've been, than what he currently is.

    The point I am making is that Grevious as the "prototype" should not be able to do things Vader cannot. It's like expecting the shuttle the moon landings went on to be greater than a modern day space shuttle, it doesn't work like that.
  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Well the TF guys nearly messed their pants when they heard that the senate had sent Jedi to settle the dispute, "We dare not go against the Jedi."
    So they are not shown as very brave. They also were worried about the legality of their actions and had to be reassured by Sidious before they acted. Doesn't sound like people that thinks the law can stick it somewhere.
    Second, at the end of TPM, Nute and the TF had lost badly, their blockade/invasion had failed badly and they were made to look like fools by having a small number of enemies defeat their big army. Add to that, their illegal methods were now out in the open. If the Jedi had grabbed Nute right there and then and put him in a dark room with some jedi I do think he would have talked to save his skin. Nute did not know that Palpatine was Sidious so he could not have know that Sidious was now the head of the republic.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  16. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Just because they are cowards doesn't mean they are going to roll over on a Sith Lord. I think the exact opposite is the case; they would be much more afraid of Sidious than they are of the Jedi and they know exactly what will happen to them if they betray him. I think it is well within reason to assume that they would go as far as taking the entire blame for it rather than turn in Sidious. However, none of that matters because as AOTC shows us they were able to bribe their way out of the charges.
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  17. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    [/quote]

    Yes that is what I am thinking as well.
    The TF needed quite a bit of prodding to make their move and they mentioned that they should not have made this deal with the Sith. Then Maul is killed, showing that Sith are not all that and they are soundly defeated and captured.
    They have lost everything. If the Jedi had grabbed them there and then and gave them the 3rd degree, I think they would have talked in order to try and save their hides.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  19. King Terak Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2012
    star 1
    Even under Jedi custody and with their hides on the line at the end of TMP, the knowledge of Sidious was still known just as the other Sith Lord. Even when Sidious' wasn't around, the Neimoidians were still afraid of him, as though they knew his reach was everywhere.
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  20. Ambervikings91 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2012
    star 2
    I hope they dive more into new things!
  21. dolphin Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 1999
    star 4


    These are all questions I'm sure Disney/Lucasfilm will answer in coming decades. :)
  22. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    Yes that is what I am thinking as well.
    The TF needed quite a bit of prodding to make their move and they mentioned that they should not have made this deal with the Sith. Then Maul is killed, showing that Sith are not all that and they are soundly defeated and captured.
    They have lost everything. If the Jedi had grabbed them there and then and gave them the 3rd degree, I think they would have talked in order to try and save their hides.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface[/quote]

    The movie also shows that the Neimoidians are willing to kill the two Jedi rather than disobey Darth Sidious. So again I think the movie clearly shows that they are more afraid of the Sith than the Jedi.
    son_of_skywalker03 likes this.
  23. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    The TF only took action against the Jedi after some prodding from Sidious. "We dare not go against the Jedi" one of the TF guys said. During the fight, the TF people got quite scared, "We will not survive this." and they almost panicked when Qui-Gon kept cutting through the door. Also, on that ship Nute and the othes had lots of droids to back them. If you put Nute alone in a room with four or five jedi the situation is quite different.
    So again, given what we see of them, I think it likely that Nute would have talked in such a situation. He had lost badly so to save his hide he could spill the beans on the Sith.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  24. Darth Chiznuk PT Trivia Master / Game Host

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    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 5
    You're right they are terrified of the Jedi but they are obviously more terrified of Sidious or they wouldn't be willing to murder two Jedi which was exactly my point. I'm pretty certain that the Jedi Order would have been highly suspicious of the Trade Federation when their two Jedi Ambassadors didn't return from their mission and yet the Neimoidians still followed all of Sidious' orders without much questioning. Also Sidious clearly states that he exerts some control over the Galactic Senate which gives even more credence to my argument that the Neimoidians would be safe to assume that they could get off scot-free. And finally it is obvious that Sidious' plans are much larger than Naboo and since the Trade Federation continues to be a part of his plot after Episode I, I think it is only common sense to assume that Sidious has promised them something substantial (deleted dialogue from Episode II clarifies what this is) and if they want to reap the huge benefits of all their risky actions then I think it is only smart for them to keep their mouths shut. It is definitely not that much of a leap in logic to assume that when the Jedi eventually did interrogate them the Neimoidians took the GFFA equivalent of the 5th.
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  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    They dared to act after prodding from Sidious and they had an army to back them up. Put Nute ALONE in a room with five Jedi and he has no such help. Second, even after the invasion the TF express doubt about their deal with Sidious and that they should not have made this bargain. So obviously they were getting worried about what they had gotten themselves into. Third, the TF wanted this new tax gone and controll over Naboo, at the end of TPM both those things have failed and they are now in a worse position than when they started so why would they listen to more of Sidious empty promises? They made a deal with him in order to get something out of it but instead they lost badly. So in order to avoid prison for treason and consorting with the enemies of the republic I think Nute could have talked. Esp if the Jedi grabbed him right at the end of TPM when he was beaten.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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