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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Was Mace really nessesary?

Discussion in 'Archive: Attack of the Clones' started by _Darth__Vader_, Nov 28, 2002.

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  1. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    "It would narratively have made or sense if it was Obi-Wan who had killed Jango, but I suppose in a way that would be giving Obi-Wan too much to do, as he already had to fight off the acklay with just a spear, then later kill it with his lightsabre, then confront and duel with Dooku, so if he had to fight and kill Jango too."

    Yes heaven forbid that the hero should have to do stuff. WHy couldn't Mace have polished off the acklay or Reek then, that would've proved his value in battle. Why not see Mace hold out his hand and knock over 20 battle droids with the force in a single blow, or tear them apart with his mind? In TPM we saw how tough the droid deka were, it took just 2 to neutralize kenobi and Jinn, why not see Mace run into battle saber in hand and take down 5 dekas before a single one can land a shot on him. That would've made him look tough.
     
  2. vladimir_imp

    vladimir_imp Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2002
    I agree with Rebel Scumb that Mace didn't have to confront Jango to prove his worth.

    That said, Obi-Wan naturally ended up fighting the Acklay because it was the 'monster' that chose to attack him, like Anakin had to distract the Reek.

    Also, the destroyers in TPM caused a problem because of their shield generators, otherwise Obi-Wan and Qui-Gonn would have taken them.

    Mace's disposal of Jango may yet prove to be important...
     
  3. Rebel Scumb

    Rebel Scumb Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 22, 1999
    as I see it, now boba is gonna take out Mace, which just makes mace look wimpy.

    Unless Mace was in on the cloning conspiracy/sifo dyas thing and was covering his tracks by offing jango.
     
  4. Mech-E_Jedi

    Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Just wanted to chime in my two bits:



    Was Mace really necessary? No, No, and No.
    Was it SLJ's fault or GL's? Both.


    As a storyteller, GL should have made us care about Mace . . .
    As an actor, SLJ should have made me care . . .
    Wait! I DO care. I want to see him taken out as dishonorably as he took out Jango.







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  5. -Edward-

    -Edward- Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2002
    I havent read all seven pages, so i apologise if this has been mentioned. I agree that mace has had very little to do so far, and for this i believe he will have a substantial role in epIII, for good or bad
     
  6. JohnWilliams00

    JohnWilliams00 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 29, 2002
    Mace was wasted in TPM and still underdeveloped in AOTC. He was more a written-in character at Sam Jackson's request since he wanted to be in Star Wars somehow. The results show the lack of importance Mace had all along in this saga. George never meant for Mace to be doing what he did in the PT.
     
  7. Plurimus

    Plurimus Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 1999
    I agree.
     
  8. SaberGiiett7

    SaberGiiett7 Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Yes, Mace was really neccesary. :D

    He's what you call a supporting character. He was not made to be in the spotlight and have countless lines like the untouchables (Padme, Obi Wan, and Anakin). TPM and AOTC would have had alot of under-development and blandess if Yoda's wise advice was'ent challenged or supported by another powerful Jedi who was praticely equal in strength. Mace Windu adds dimension and often times wit as Han Solo did in the OT. His conversations during AOTC and his battle preformance at the climax of AOTC was excellant. :)

    <[-]> Saber
     
  9. Lightsabel2

    Lightsabel2 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 18, 2002
    No, Mace was completely unnecessary.
     
  10. Ternian

    Ternian Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2000
    Mace has always been one of those 'marketing blow-up' characters.

    He has nothing to add to the story. His death in EpIII is either going to be quick or just laughable.
     
  11. AnakinWisler

    AnakinWisler Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Mace was not at all necessary in the Star Wars universe. I think GL created the role for SLJ and it's been blown out of proportion [face_plain]
     
  12. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "Mace Windu adds dimension and often times wit as Han Solo did in the OT."

    Yeah, I still laugh out loud every time I hear, "Perhaps it is time to inform the Senate that our ability to use the Force has diminished." [/sarcasm]

    And I challenge you to think of an action hero comeback more cliched than "I don't think so." (Wait, here's one: "This party's over.")

    Mace was wedged into the story with no real purpose.
     
  13. Mech-E_Jedi

    Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Darth Geist, Testify Brother! Testify! Tell it like it is.


    Amen!



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  14. NiktosRule

    NiktosRule Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 8, 2001
    No Mace wasn't necessary and he sucks to boot. Samuel is just a horrible actor in my opinion. At least when it comes to SW films. I hope Mace dies like a little wuss.
     
  15. Jedi_Master201

    Jedi_Master201 Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    May 5, 2001
    Mace will prove his importance in Ep. III.
     
  16. Mech-E_Jedi

    Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Jun 11, 2002
    I just love those responses, "Wait until the next movie . . . then you'll see that (X) is great!"

    Based on several posts from this topic, it seems established that the character of Mace Windu was a write in. Based on his role in TPM and now AOTC, as a part of the story, there is nothing that Mace has done or said that couldn't have been done or said by someone else (most of the time, by Yoda).

    Unless GL decides to use Mace as some catalyst for a surprise (such as a traitor to the Jedi), then his purpose in the story will remain unnecessary despite any fancy choreographed fight scenes.

    And I, for one, am so very glad I will never hear Mace Windu leach off other SLJ characters by means of spewing profanities. (i.e. rated PG)






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  17. black_saber

    black_saber Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 4, 2002
    Hell Yeaaaaaaaa! He is the coolest bad ass jedi ever!
     
  18. Mace_Windu3337

    Mace_Windu3337 Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 30, 2003
    In response to Darth Vader's comment that Mace Windu got a purple lightsaber just because he wanted it, you should know that all the actors for Jedi choose their lightsaber handles and colors, except Anakin, who had to have a blue b/c it was in the OT. Besides, why shouldn't he have a purple lightsaber. The lightsaber crystals on the planet Ilum grow in many forms and many colors are possible.
     
  19. Mace_Windu3337

    Mace_Windu3337 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Jan 30, 2003
    Also, I believe that Mace's character added some real flavor to the Jedi and showed just how powerful good Jedi other than Yoda can be. True, he wasn't absolutly necessary, but I doubt that the Jedi would be lead by one powerful Jedi, Yoda, and that it would be better to spread out the power and authority.
     
  20. Mech-E_Jedi

    Mech-E_Jedi Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2002
    :confused: . . .

    Um . . . but I thought GL said the Jedi only have green or blue lightsabres - at least that's what I heard come out of his mouth on the DVD . . .

    :confused:

    Um . . . Planet what? Ilmnmn m n What?

    I smell EU - someone crack a window.





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  21. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Mace Windu is, indeed, already an important character in the Star Wars saga.

    First, Mace is clearly responsible for Anakin being trained: certainly, he initally followed Yoda's lead in finding the boy too old and tarnished with attachments.

    But then he realized that "the mysterious warrior was a Sith." Faced with the return of the Sith, he decided that the Council should risk training Anakin, as he indeed may be the Chosen One destined to restor balance to the Force.

    (How else to explain how the Council granted Obi-Wan permission to train Anakin despite Yoda's objections? Mace is the other leading member of the Council, so it follows that his efforts changed the Council's decision. And his concern about the Sith, shown at Qui-Gon's funeral, explains why.)

    He continued to believe that Anakin was the Chosen One, that his rebellious nature could be contained by the teachings of the Jedi Order. Likewise, he believed that Count Dooku was incapable of an assassination attempt and that the Senate should know of the Jedi's diminished strength. His overconfidence in the Order's ability to control Anakin, in Dooku's inherent good nature as a former Jedi, and in the Senate as a body of good in the galaxy seem to be his undoing.

    He is the quintessential Jedi, and a counterpoint to the suspicious, wizened Yoda. If Yoda was the prophet that was ignored, Mace was the one who ignored him.


    And his killing of Jango Fett? I agree, that this likely establishes his prowess as a warrior to demonstrate Vader's power in killing him in Episode III.

    I don't see why that's a problem: this is clearly one episode in a larger story, and it's okay for a character to be developed within multiple episodes.

    Look at Bail Organa! He had a minimal role in AOTC -- so minimal that AOTC-Imax removed every one of his lines -- yet we clearly know that he will become more important in the closing chapter of the prequel trilogy.
     
  22. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    If Mace hadn't been there, Bubba, other existing characters could easily have done just what he did. George carved his role from chunks of other characters' roles, just to accomodate an additional actor.

    To get an idea of what I'm saying, picture if Samuel L. Jackson had asked to be in...

    ...Rocky! Meet Jace Windex, Mick's old sparring partner. Watch as he gives Rocky the same advice as Mick does, then climbs into the ring to pummel Mr. T while Rocky's off doing something else.

    ...Lord of the Rings! Meet Radagast the Brown. Watch him chat with Gandalf for a few brief scenes, then leap into the spotlight to take out Saruman and toss out such witty and original retorts as "I don't think so!"

    ...A New Hope! Imagine Mace Windu as Obi-Wan's buddy. See Mace and Obi-Wan talk about Luke! See Mace and Obi-Wan talk about the Empire! See Mace jump in out of nowhere to shoot down Vader!

    You get the point. Mace is a superfluous character, whose only purpose is to take away moments that other, worthier characters should have had. He has no back story, very little personality, and because he's there, the time spent on him is time that other characters could have had to develop and grow.

    He's a detriment to the saga, and the only defense for him (besides "MACE IS THE BADIST JEDI EVAR!!!11!!") is that he might theoretically begin to pull his weight in the next movie. (Hmm, where have we heard that before?)

    The bottom line is this: If Mace had never existed; if Yoda had come to his conclusions on his own, and Obi had killed Jango (thus bringing some actual closure to their rivalry), would he be missed? Would people say, "Gee, I really wish we had another Jedi character, one that sits around looking bored most of the time"? Somehow, I doubt it.
     
  23. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    I disagree: without another leading member of the Jedi Council, Yoda would have been unable to disagree with the Council's decision to have Anakin trained as a Jedi. Yoda would no longer be the prophetic voice of doom, the Cassandra that no one would listen to but who was right all along. He would be just another arrogant Jedi whose pride brought about his own fall.

    And, besides, you claim that "other existing characters could easily have done just what he did," but is that really the case? Let's ignore the digression about Rocky and Lord of the Rings, and focus on the movies at hand:

    In AOTC, Yoda and Mace talked about both the Jedi's diminished abilities with the Force and Yoda sensing Anakin's pain at the loss of his mother.

    Who else but Mace (or a similar character, a leading Jedi like Ki-Adi-Mundi) would have been there to talk to Yoda?

    Or are you actually suggesting that Yoda should have been talking to himself?
     
  24. Darth Geist

    Darth Geist Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 1999
    "In AOTC, Yoda and Mace talked about both the Jedi's diminished abilities with the Force and Yoda sensing Anakin's pain at the loss of his mother."

    Yoda obviously could have talked with any Council member. Why not have the whole Council discuss it? There's no reason it had to be Mace.

    The real problem, however, is when Mace, an insignificant bit part up until the climax, suddenly starts hogging the spotlight. It's the same as if Helm's Deep had started focusing on, say, Haldir or one of Theoden's men at the expense of the leads.

    If Mace had joined the fight and stayed in the background, that would have been one thing, but instead he inexplicably elbows his way to center stage, bringing the film's most tense and interesting subplot (the rivalry of Obi and Jango) to an abrupt and arbitrary end, and robbing the subplot of its climax in the process.

    Leads are leads. Supporting characters are supporting characters. When the writer confuses one for the other, the result is invariably a dramatic mess.
     
  25. Bubba_the_Genius

    Bubba_the_Genius Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 2002
    Yoda obviously could have talked with any Council member. Why not have the whole Council discuss it? There's no reason it had to be Mace.

    Wouldn't you still be complaining about spending time on another Jedi or the entire Council? What's the specific complaint about it being Mace?


    Oh, this is the problem:

    The real problem, however, is when Mace, an insignificant bit part up until the climax, suddenly starts hogging the spotlight. It's the same as if Helm's Deep had started focusing on, say, Haldir or one of Theoden's men at the expense of the leads.

    If Mace had joined the fight and stayed in the background, that would have been one thing, but instead he inexplicably elbows his way to center stage, bringing the film's most tense and interesting subplot (the rivalry of Obi and Jango) to an abrupt and arbitrary end, and robbing the subplot of its climax in the process.


    You're unhappy that Obi-Wan didn't kill Jango. Well, fine, but that doesn't mean that a second Council member (be it Mace, Ki-Adi-Mundi, or whoever) was unnecessary to the story.

    I, first, wouldn't say that Mace is as minor as one of Theoden's men: he is clearly an equal with Yoda and he has major pieces of dialogue in several places.

    Nor would I say that Mace "hogged the spotlight." Obi-Wan was taking out the ackley, and Anakin and Padme were fighting together.

    You want to assert that you would be happier with Obi-Wan taking out Jango, fine. (Though, we must admit that we haven't seen the entire story, so there may end up being a compelling reason for Mace to have had that job.)

    But it doesn't then follow that Mace was utterly unnecessary.
     
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