Saga Was Mace Windu right to want to kill a captive Palpatine? Were the Jedi right to want to take over?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ghost, May 1, 2013.

Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn
  1. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Palpatine is without a lightsaber, and defeated. Windu still holds his lightsaber, but decides he's not going to arrest Palpatine, he's going to kill him.

    Anakin stays at the Temple, trusting in the Force. Windu beheads Palpatine. The Jedi then seize control of the Republic, purging the Senate and the courts, as Windu and Yoda agreed to do shortly before Windu learned about Palpatine's true identity.


    Would that have been the right choice? Is it really that much different from Anakin striking down a defeated Dooku, or Luke almost striking down a defeated Vader? Would Mace Windu, and perhaps the most of the Jedi Order with him, have fallen to the dark side and remained in control over "their" "Republic"? Or was it really the right thing to do, given the extraordinary circumstances... or would it have been the same as when Palpatine was giving emergency powers to deal with the Separatist crisis?
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, May 1, 2013
    kainee likes this.
  2. Minez01 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2005
    star 1
    It's hard to say. It probably doesn't seem like the right choice, however Mace obviously believes that Palpatine can't be taken alive (or he might escape or whatever). But in all honesty I don't believe that anything would have happened to the republic had Palpatine been killed - I don't think the Jedi would fall to the dark side out of some hunger for control over the republic. But who knows.
    ILNP likes this.
  3. Lee_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    They weren't taking over- they were removing Palpatine from office, as he had basically circumvented democracy. Mace had to kill him because he was an ultra-powerful Sith that had control over the courts and Senate through corrupt process; leaving him alive risked him still taking over still despite his arrest. The Senate would still have been intact, there just would have needed to be a new elected leader. The Jedi were trying to preserve democracy. If you watch the deleted scenes on the ROTS DVD release, you get a better understanding of what Palpatine was doing, and why he needed to be removed from office; there was another movement to stop Palpatine involving Padme and Organa that the Jedi knew nothing about also (a subplot that was removed from the movie for the sake of time).
    Last edited by Lee_, May 1, 2013
    kainee, The Hellhammer, ILNP and 3 others like this.
  4. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    Palpatine wasn't defeated. Mace bested him in the duel, but he still had much more in him. He simply wanted Anakin to believe he was unarmed, which would evoke his Jedi instincts (despite killing Dooku earlier). Mace knew very well what he was doing. He attempted to arrest him, and he revealed his true nature in front of the Jedi. Mace then saw the opportunity to end it there.
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Perhaps Windu would have fallen to the dark side by striking down an unarmed opponent. The Jedi do not beleive in emotion, yet Windu seemingly hated the Sith. However I don't beleive he and Yoda intended to permanently rule over the republic, the plan was to transition backi to democracy by taking over for a short time. It would have been nothing like palpatines rule.
    kainee, darth ladnar and ILNP like this.
  6. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    The Jedi were seizing power, yes. But at the end of the day the Jedi can be trusted to hand power back to the Senate, whereas the Sith cannot.
    Last edited by Alpha-Red, May 1, 2013
  7. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6

    MACE WINDU: I sense a plot to destroy the Jedi. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor.

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he should be removed from
    office.

    MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition . . .

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: . . . and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.

    YODA: To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Hmmmmm. . . . great care we must take.


    Palpatine was only able to shock Windu once Windu was disarmed. He had lost his lightsaber.

    How can we be sure? Power corrupts. Would they still be Jedi, being rulers of the galaxy instead of its servants?
    Last edited by Summer Dreamer, May 1, 2013
    kainee, Darth Dnej and Darth_Pevra like this.
  8. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Dude, I don't know where you got that quote from but it's complete bull. Ki Adi Mundi never says that. And yes the Jedi can be trusted to hand back power. Before the Ruusan Reformation Jedi were allowed to serve as politicians and Chancellors but they instead handed that power down to the non-Jedi so that they could remain arbitrary to all situations.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, May 1, 2013
  9. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The Script (included all deleted stuff), but most of that exchange remains in the movie:

    http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Revenge-of-the-Sith.html

    How do we know these Jedi can be trusted to hand back power?
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  10. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    I think that quote might've been from the novelization...though it's been a while since I read it so I'm not too sure.

    The Jedi Order has has protected the Republic for thousands of years. If they had wanted to take control they could have done so at any time...or better yet they could've just joined with the Sith to conquer the galaxy rather than opposing them.
  11. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    This >Before the Ruusan Reformation Jedi were allowed to serve as politicians and Chancellors but they instead handed that power down to the non-Jedi so that they could remain arbitrary to all situations.
  12. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    No its not from the novel. It was never said.
  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    One thingt that is being overlooked here is that Mace went with three others to arrest Palpatine, not kill him.
    Mace knew then that Palpatine was a Sith, that he controlled the senate etc. He still went with the arrest option.

    Then Palpatine violently resists arrest and kills the three other jedi and try to kill Mace.
    Mace disarms him and again tries the arrest option. But Palpatine STILL do not come quietly and uses Force Lightning against Mace, who blocks it.
    Only after that does Mace decide to kill Palpatine. And Palpatine only says that he is weak and all that, as far as Mace knew, he still had his power and could use it at anytime.

    Consider, say in our world, four cops goes to arrest as suspect but the suspect pulls a gun and kills three of the cops.
    There is a shoutout with the last cop but eventually the cop forces the suspect to drop his gun. But the suspect still won't come quietly and pulls another gun and again tries to shoot the cop. If that cop had shot and killed the suspect, would that be wrong?

    Dooku had lost both hands and thus could not do Force lightning, Palpatine was still "armed" and dangerous and had twice resisted arrest and could still do as far as Mace knew.

    How the senate/public had taken the news about Palpatines death is interesting. Some might not have bought the Jedi saying that he was a Sith and if the Jedi had disbanded the senate and taken over as rulers, that might not have gone down very well.

    The clone army is also intersting, without Palpatine, there is noone that can do "Order 66" so they might still follow Jedi orders.
    On the other hand, the Jedi has just killed the chancellor, would they view that as reason and kill the Jedi?
    Not sure.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    This is what was said in the novel- similar scene, but clearer:

    "This report—from where does it come?"
    "The Jedi still have friends in the Senate," Mace Windu replied in his grim monotone, "for now."
    "When presented this amendment is, passed it will be?"
    Mace nodded. "My source expects passage by acclamation. Overwhelming passage. Perhaps as early as this afternoon."
    "The Chancellor's goal in this—unclear to me it is," Yoda said slowly. "Though nominally in command of the Council, the Senate may place him, the Jedi he cannot control. Moral, our authority has always been; much more than merely legal. Simply follow orders, Jedi do not!"
    "I don't think he intends to control the Jedi," Mace said. "By placing the Jedi Council under the control of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, this amendment will give him the con- stitutional authority to disband the Order itself." "Surely you cannot believe this is his intention."
    "His intention?" Mace said darkly. "Perhaps not. But his intentions are irrelevant; all that matters now is the intent of the Sith Lord who has our government in his grip. And the Jedi Order may be all that stands between him and galactic domination. What do you think he will do?"
    "Authority to disband the Jedi, the Senate would never grant."
    "The Senate will vote to grant exactly that. This afternoon."
    "The implications of this, they must not comprehend!"
    "It no longer matters what they comprehend," Mace said. "They know where the power is."
    "But even disbanded, even without legal authority, still Jedi we would be. Jedi Knights served the Force long before there was a Galactic Republic, and serve it we will when this Republic is but dust."
    "Master Yoda, that day may be coming sooner than any of us think. That day may be today." Mace shot a frustrated look at Obi-Wan, who picked up his cue smoothly.
    "We don't know what the Sith Lord's plans may be," Obi- Wan said, "but we can be certain that Palpatine is not to be trusted. Not anymore. This draft resolution is not the product of some overzealous Senator; we may be sure Palpatine wrote it himself and passed it along to someone he controls—to make it- look like the Senate is once more 'forcing him to reluctantly accept extra powers in the name of security.' We are afraid that they will continue to do so until one day he's 'forced to reluctantly accept' dictatorship for life!"
    "I am convinced this is the next step in a plot aimed directly at the heart of the Jedi," Mace said. "This is a move toward our destruction. The dark side of the Force surrounds the Chancellor."
    Obi-Wan added, "As it has surrounded and cloaked the Separatists since even before the war began. If the Chancellor is being influenced through the dark side, this whole war may have been, from the beginning, a plot by the Sith to destroy the Jedi Order."
    "Speculation!" Yoda thumped the floor with his gimer stick, making his hoverchair bob gently. "On theories such as these we cannot rely. Proof' we need. Proof!"
    "Proof may be a luxury we cannot afford." A dangerous light had entered Mace Windu's eyes. "We must be ready to act!"
    "Act?" Obi-Wan asked mildly.
    "He cannot be allowed to move against the Order. He cannot be allowed to prolong the war needlessly. Too many Jedi have died already. He is dismantling the Republic itself! I have seen life outside the Republic; so have you, Obi-Wan. Slavery. Torture. Endless war."
    Mace's face darkened with the same distant, haunted shadow Obi-Wan had seen him wear the day before. "I have seen it in Nar Shaddaa, and I saw it on Haruun Kal. I saw what it did to Depa, and to Sora Bulq. Whatever its flaws, the Republic is our sole hope for justice, and for peace. It is our only defense against the dark. Palpatine may be about to do what the Separatists cannot: bring down the Republic. If he tries, he must be removed from office."
    "Removed?" Obi-Wan said. "You mean, arrested?"
    Yoda shook his head. "To a dark place, this line of thought will lead us. Great care, we must take."
    "The Republic is civilization. It's the only one we have." Mace looked deeply into Yoda's eyes, and into Obi-Wan's, and Obi-Wan could feel the heat in the Korun Master's gaze. "We must be prepared for radical action. It is our duty."
    "But," Obi-Wan protested numbly, "you're talking about treason..."
    "I'm not afraid of words, Obi-Wan! If it's treason, then so be it. I would do this right now, if I had the Council's support. The real treason," Mace said, "would be failure to act!"
    "Such an act, destroy the Jedi Order it could," Yoda said. "Lost the trust of the public, we have already—"
    "No disrespect, Master Yoda," Mace interrupted, "but that's a politician's argument. We can't let public opinion stop us from
    doing what's right.''
    "Convinced it is right, I am not," Yoda said severely. "Working behind the scenes we should be, to uncover Lord Sidious! To move against Palpatine while the Sith still exist—this may be part of the Sith plan itself, to turn the Senate and the public against the Jedi! So that we are not only disbanded, but outlawed."
    Mace was half out of his pod. "To wait gives the Sith the advantage-"
    "Have the advantage already, they do!" Yoda jabbed at him with his gimer stick. " Increase their advantage we will, if in haste we act!"
    "Masters, Masters, please," Obi-Wan said. He looked from one to the other and inclined his head respectfully. "Perhaps there is a middle way."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 2, 2013
  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Ki Adi- Mundi Scene that's been mentioned, was, in the novel:



    "Have you considered," Ki-Adi-Mundi said carefully, from far- away Mygeeto, "that if Palpatine refuses to surrender power, removing him is only a first step?"
    Mace looked at the blue ghost of the Cerean Master. "I am not a politician. Removing a tyrant is enough for me.
    "But it will not be enough for the Republic," Ki-Adi-Mundi countered sadly. "Palpatine's dictatorship has been legitimized— and can be legalized, even enshrined in a revised Constitutionby the supermajority he controls in the Senate."
    The grim future inside Mace's head turned even darker. The Cerean was right.
    "Filled with corruption, the Senate is," Yoda agreed from Kashyyyk. "Controlled, they must be, until replaced the corrupted Senators can be, with Senators honest and—"
    "Do you hear us?" Mace lowered his head into his hands. "How have we come to this? Arresting a Chancellor. Taking over the Senate—! It's as though Dooku was right—to save the Republic, we'll have to destroy it..."
    Yoda lifted his head, and his eyes slitted as though he struggled with some inner pain. "Hold on to hope we must; our true enemy, Palpatine is not, nor the Senate; the true enemy is instead the Sith Lord Sidious, who controls them both. Once destroyed Sidious is... all these other concerns, less dire they will instantly become."
  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Interesting scene, I rather like it.
    One does wonder however, the Jedi now begin to wonder if the war is fake, a plot by the Sith. Why don't they bring up Dooku and this unknown Tyrannus? This Tyrannus hired Jango and the Jedi knows that Jango worked for Dooku, so what if this Tyrannus is Dooku? Given their train of thought, that would not be an unreasonable notion.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  17. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Shortly after Order 66, in the junior novelization of RoTS (written by Patricia C. Wrede) we have Obi-Wan thinking about how they never found a Tyranus, "But I'll bet there was a Darth Tyranus. Why didn't I see that before?"

    And in the Matthew Stover novel, just before the fight with Grievous on Utapau, the scene is different from the movie.

    Instead of "I was trained in your Jedi arts by Count Dooku" the line is:

    "I was trained in your Jedi arts by Lord Tyranus himself"
    and Obi-Wan responds
    "Do you mean Count Dooku? What a curious coincidence- I trained the man that killed him"

    so, at least in that, Obi-Wan has some idea that "Lord Tyranus" and "Count Dooku" are the same man.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 2, 2013
  18. Death T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    Yes, I think so. I believe everyone should get a fair trial and all that, but you only get so many chances to take down the most evil and powerful man in the whole Galaxy who controls the courts. If Mace is allowed to kill Sidious, the OT never has to happen. (theories about Palpatine letting Mace 'defeat' him aside).
  19. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I never thought the Jedi wanted to take over.
  20. TheRevanchist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2012
    star 2
    Jedi were not going to take over the republic. Not Windu and especially not Yoda.

    Before the Ruusan reformation, the members of the Jedi Order could be chosen as leaders of the Republic, in fact for quite a few times only Jedi were chosen as Supreme Chancellor. After Valenthyne Farfalla refused to become Chancellor, the order decided to leave the election to non Jedi people so the Jedi can be arbitrary in every situation.

    Also, if the Jedi wanted to take over they could have done it. In a demilitarized Galactic, Jedi easily could have make a purge and rule. Or join the Sith and rule together. Nah, that wasn't never Jedi's intentions and surely after a period of stabilization the Jedi would have left the power and leave other peoples rule.
  21. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Yes, but who says they would this time? It seems that Palpatine has not only corrupted the Republic, but corrupted the Jedi too.

    Of course. But it seems that Palpatine has corrupted the Jedi this time around. They're already leading a slave army, and have become soldiers fighting for one side in a war. If they took control this time, especially if Windu had killed a defeated Palpatine, maybe it would have led to another Jedi Schism with a significant part of the order wanting to hang on to control.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  22. Obi-Wan21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2002
    star 4
    The intended goal of Yoda and the Jedi strike force was to wrest power away from acting Chancellor Palpatine, and assume control of the senate only temporarily. The Council's mandate in this course of action was clear; once assuming control, they would elect an intermediate Supreme Chancellor while they rooted out any other corrupt senators from the Republic, such as those closest to Palpatine. The investigation would indeed have been dangerous and tense, but I don't believe it would have led any of the Jedi Council down the path toward the darkside.

    It was a necessary act, one true and virtuous. The Council had no ulterior motives, it was simply the right thing to do; after the Sith had become so intrinsically tied to the Republic, the Jedi would have been forced to weed out those tainted by Palpatine's wicked tongue and deceitful promises.

    Mace's decision was accurate. Palpatine was a golden goose among senators, he had to be killed. He had far too much authorial power to remain in control, and could have easily enacted Order 66 from anywhere. While they may not have known about the 66 plot, I am simply saying it's just a number of reasons why taking Palpatine out was the right decision. Palpatine had too many connections, he had far too many allies and supporters. He had to be stopped, even if it meant assassination.
    Ananta Chetan likes this.
  23. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions.


    And why is it ok to kill Palpatine, but not ok to kill Dooku or Vader?

    You don't think a captured Vader or Dooku would be dangerous?
  24. Obi-Wan21 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2002
    star 4
    No one killed Vader, he did himself in. But he was also too dangerous to be kept alive were he to remain a villain, a force choke and he's walking out. Dangerous enemies require necessary, irreversible actions. I don't even think the Jedi threw a fit when Dooku was killed. I know as a viewer I did, but only because Anakin killed someone who could've outed Papa Palps and I was like "come on!"

    Besides, Anakin only wanted Palps alive for selfish, blinded reasons, it had nothing to do with justice or the courts. Palpatine had to be stopped, he had to be killed. The galaxy would have never found rest. Just as they didn't.
  25. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    From utilitarian perspective, Mace is doing the moral thing. It's the same as if you could kill Hitler just as he about to begin his rule.

    However, the Jedi have their own code of morality (and not everyone accepts utilitarianism as the moral standard here on earth either), and according to Jedi tenets, Mace should not kill Palpatine. Palpatine appears to be helpless, and Jedi do not kill helpless people. Also, Mace should assume that Anakin will act according to the Jedi code, so even if Palpatine is faking weakness (which he is), Mace shouldn't kill him because he has Anakin there to help him subdue Palpatine.

    I also agree with Yoda on strategic grounds, especially his comments from the novel. Marching in there to arrest him wasn't the smartest thing to do. It could be used by Palpatine to suggest that the Jedi are treasonous, and Mace pretty much is treasonous. He wants Palpatine out whether he's Sith or not, democratically elected or not. In the end, Palpatine manipulates the situation to make it even worse than Yoda fears. The Jedi not only appear treasonous they also appear murderous and even savage, by leaving Palpatine "disfigured," though this too is a fake on Palpatine's part. Mace shouldn've thought things out and come up with a plan instead of marching in there, but he was a hothead. Yoda was right. The Jedi are still the Jedi regardless of whether they remain part of the Republic.

    I honestly don't think Mace could've killed Palpatine b/c Palpatine was just faking weakness and I believe he could've disarmed Mace with his Force lightning just as he disarmed Yoda. (I also don't think he can b/c he's not the Chosen One). However, if Mace theoretically could kill Palpatine, then I think it would have undermined the Order's authority. Palpatine was popular, and democracies really don't like to have their leaders murdered by some small group of self-appointed do-gooders. The Senate most likely would have turned the clones on the Jedi, but even if the Jedi did somehow gain power over the Senate, I think a new Senate, after all the dust had settled, would not recognize the Order's right to exist. Having been rejected by the Republic, the Jedi would have to leave Coruscant and they'd probably return to Tython, their ancestral home.

    So, in my book, even if Palpatine had been killed by Mace, things would've gone pretty awful for the Jedi.

    BTW, I agree with @The Supreme Chancellor. Mace seemed very close to turning to dark side, himself. In the novelization, he seems consumed with anger and shows no respect for the Senate. However, I don't think turning to the dark side would have helped him any better in gaining control. The Senate and the populace would have seen Mace as evil for killing a legitimately elected official, and being new to the dark side, he wouldn't be able to conceal his power hungry and hateful intentions. He would have stood out a like sore thumb
    kainee, Ananta Chetan and Pensivia like this.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn