Saga Was Mace Windu right to want to kill a captive Palpatine? Were the Jedi right to want to take over?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ghost, May 1, 2013.

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  1. Ananta Chetan Force Ghost

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    Aug 11, 2013
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    Had Mace and the three other Jedi Masters succeeded in confronting Palpatine...do you think the public would have believed and accepted being told that the Chancellor was a Sith Lord after being informed that he had just been assassinated by the Jedi?
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  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Only Yoda didn't march into Palpatine's office to arrest the latter. He had marched into the new emperor's office to commit murder. If Yoda had succeeded in killing Palpatine, I wonder how most of the Senate, let alone the galactic's citizens would respond to such an event. Like Mace before him, Yoda committed an act of attempted treason.
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  3. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Going in there and killing Palpatine was undoubtedly treasonous and would've spelt the end of Mace and possibly the Jedi Order in their role within the Republic.

    Having said all of that, it was probably the best course of action available at the time.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Whose action? Mace's? Yoda's? Or both?
  5. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Whoever was trying to terminate Palpatine.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Oh. I see. Both Yoda and Mace.
  7. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    It was not against the Jedi code for Mace to arrest, or even kill in combat, Palpatine. It was just not a well-thought out plan that would've almost certainly ended badly for the Jedi one way or another. What did go against the Jedi code was Mace trying to kill Palpatine when he was unarmed and apparently helpless.

    This is not what Yoda did. Palpatine was armed or always defending himself, so Yoda was not breaking the Jedi code. As for the prudence of Yoda's move, well, I think at that point, Yoda was thinking to himself: "Well, taking Palpatine out is better than nothing. The Republic will probably fall apart anyway, but the Jedi are almost all dead and it's better that this new government at least isn't run by someone who's pure evil." I'm sure someone could make a good argument that Yoda wasn't acting prudently, but at this point, his options were diminishing very quickly.
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  8. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    Why? Why on earth do many fans continue to make excuses for Yoda's actions in ROTS and at the same time, condemn Mace Windu for his actions in the same movie . . . especially since their actions were similar? I find this so hypocritical. And if my comments seem ugly, I cannot help it. Especially when faced with this double-standard regarding both Yoda and Mace.


    When Yoda marched into Palpatine's office, his clear intention was to kill the latter . . . regardless of whether the new emperor was armed or not. Yoda's intentions, in my opinion, make his actions just as questionable as Mace's earlier actions. But since he and Obi-Wan are viewed as beyond reproach by most SW fans, they refuse to condemn him or even consider he might have some personality flaws.
    Last edited by DRush76, Aug 20, 2013
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  9. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    Yoda and Obiwan are beloved SW characters from the 70's. Mace Windu is that irritating guy from Pulp Fiction who always plays the same character. Sorry to be facetious, but that's how a lot of people see it.

    I don't see Mace as any more in the wrong than Yoda or Obiwan and much less so, obviously, than Anakin, as far as the Jedi blame game goes.

    Having said all of that, I still think that by the end of ROTS, killing Palpatine was probably the most right amongst many wrong options. Pretty much any outcome was preferable to leaving a Sith Lord in charge of the galaxy, treason or no treason.
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  10. Shadow Trooper Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 18, 2013
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    Killing Palpatine was the right choice at that point, as he had revealed himself to be a Sith, resisted arrest and murdered three Jedi. Mace's mistake was barging into his office and attempting to arrest him with flimsy evidence. Also, I don't understand where the notion that Palpatine was harmless came from. Any dude who can shoot Lightning from his fingers can only be disarmed by being...dis-armed
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  11. JimFlakes Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2013
    I say no, killing Palpatine was the wrong move, and here's why: First of all, I do not believe that Mace Windu bested Palpatine in a duel. If you haven't noticed the man is very calculating and plans his moves way far ahead of time. For instance, he started an entire war against himself just so that he could create a reason for him to gain total emergency power over the senate. This war was calculated and planned YEARS before it even happened. What I believe Palpatine was actually doing when he was fighting Mace Windu, is he was just stalling for time WAITING for Anakin Skywalker to show up. Once he sensed Anakin's presence approaching, he allowed himself to be pinned to the ground SIMPLY so that Anakin could see Mace Windu trying to kill him as a defenseless old man. He knew that this would cause Anakin to panic, because the thought of losing Palpatine is essentially the same thing as losing Padme, at least in his mind. When people are panicked they tend to make decisions hastily without really sitting down to think. Either way, there wasn't enough time for him to think, and currently the only things Anakin COULD SEE is that The Jedi Order was trying to kill a "defenseless" unarmed prisoner, and that he was about to lose Padme. Of course, Palpatine KNEW that this was exactly what Anakin would see, and he PLANNED it so that he would only see these two things, without giving him enough time to consider the possibility that Palpatine was the one who set this whole situation up. He knew that Anakin's only option at this point would be to kill Mace Windu. He also knew that killing Windu would cause Anakin to go through an identity crisis and cause him to lose faith in himself, as well as the Jedi Order, leaving his only option to join Sideous as a Sith.

    HOWEVER, if Mace Windu had decided NOT to kill Darth Sideous, when Anakin finally arrived, he would either see Mace Windu peacefully ARRESTING Sideous, OR Sideous killing Mace Windu. This would not have shaken his faith in the Jedi Order and caused him to join the Sith.

    This is all just my opinion anyways.
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  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    \


    In other words, many fans are simply being bigoted about Mace and deliberately blind about Obi-Wan and Yoda's flaws and mistakes. Thank you for verifying this.
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  13. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I'm not sure if I'd use the word bigoted necessarily. Otherwise, yeah, something like that.
  14. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

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    In the light and dark world of Star Wars Mace Windu would have absolutely been right to kill the evil Sith Lord. After all they had been looking for him for years and he was right under their noses which tells you how powerful he was. He had control of everything. Just like Mace said he's to dangerous to keep alive. The Jedi was planning to only take over temporarily so there would be a smooth transition. But it probably would be hard to explain that to the republic especially after assassinating its supreme leader. But with Sidious dead and not directing Anakin who would or could do anything about it.
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  15. kainee Jedi Master

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    Dec 10, 2012
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    I think the problem is that we are operating in hindsight-- we know why Palpatine is so dangerous and can justify why Mace and later Yoda's attempts to kill Palpatine would be beneficial to the galaxy but the problem is, the benefits of an assassination might not be so apparent to others in-universe. It's the same problem with characters doing stupid things in genre movies like in horror movies, splitting up when there's a monster on the loose even though they don't know that although the audience does. (I don't know too much about the EU so I'm really going off of what I know based on the films).

    It's difficult for me to come up with analogies for the Jedi's role in the Republic because we don't know the details of how they figure into it-- we can infer based on some things seen since the Jedi must have some authority if they are considered superior to normal law enforcement (I refer to the argument Anakin had with Obi-wan when they were initially assigned to protect Padme about investigation being implied in their mandate and Anakin successfully getting the cantina denizens to move along by saying "Jedi business" in AotC) and they must also have some form of military authority due to their positions as generals over the clone army. Although it can be argued that their military authority might not be the status quo due to how sudden the outbreak of the Clone Wars was to everyone else but Palpatine, this still leaves a question as to how much authority the Jedi have in regards to peacekeeping (a word that seems to encompass law enforcement as well as military engagements). It is also obvious the Jedi have a hand in state affairs due to their diplomatic roles from what we saw when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent to negotiate with the Trade Federation over the Naboo blockade in TPM.

    But I am unclear as to what their role is in regards to the legislative branch of the government, the Senate-- what makes matters even more muddled is that the Jedi are distinctly a religious organization if you consider that they are governed internally by their Council and their Code and don't seem to be beholden to the Senate, which you can see from their displeasure with the new amendment that allowed for Palpatine to appoint Anakin to the Council. It always felt like to me that the Senate might have had the power to possibly rein in the Jedi (on the assumption that the Jedi who are superpowered sentients will obey such legislation based on their honor code) but the Senate never acted on it, so it feels like the Jedi are the state-approved religion of the Republic. Obviously, the Jedi are above the political wranglings present in the Senate and don't seem to have an active say but they do seem to have a lot of varied power and influence as an organization but the protocol and procedure for the attempted Jedi arrest/execution of Palpatine is up in the air.

    Yes, the act to arrest and then to kill a resisting Sith lord was well-intentioned and in retrospect, the success of such an action would have saved a lot of misery for the galaxy but was Mace essentially trying to do something that he was not legally empowered to do as a Jedi Council member? Were the Jedi essentially renegades when it came to the law of the Republic? I don't have enough information to determine that. Although it seems like the Jedi taking over the Senate doesn't seem to be something there was a precedent for based on Anakin's reaction to it. If there was a fail-safe with the Jedi taking over the government of the Republic, it doesn't seem to be common knowledge within the Order since Anakin calls the Jedi evil (although it can also be arguable that this is part of his internal justification for all the evil acts he just did to the Jedi in the Temple massacre).

    Also, the duel that Yoda knowingly sets out to have with Palpatine makes me think of something because historically, dueling was something that commonly occurred-- first with swords and then with pistols before it was outlawed. Do you think there would be a similar legality to lightsaber duels in the Republic?
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  16. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    The Jedi is not the state-approved religion of the Republic. Instead, the Jedi Order served as diplomats and defenders for the Galactic Senate.


    I have never heard of duels being legal within the Republic. I believe that Yoda's actions were simply about killing Palpatine.
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 3, 2013
  17. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    In times of war, the Jedi, in their military capacity, would surely be sanctioned to use force against the enemy, and that force may involve dueling.
    Last edited by MOC Yak Face, Sep 3, 2013
  18. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Yoda was trying to kill the leader of the Galactic Empire. There was no rebellion going on at the time. And the Clone Wars was over. I don't think your argument would hold water with the Senate.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Strictly, while the Separatist leadership may have been dead by the point Yoda attacked Palpatine, and their droids shut down, there were plenty of nondroid holdouts still fighting.

    Not to mention that Palpatine is also the shadow leader of the Separatists- as Dooku's master.
  20. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

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    It probably wouldn't have held water in the senate but that was a sacrifice they were willing to make. Sidious had control of everything and was way to dangerous and evil to be kept alive. They where gonna try to kill him regardless of the consequences.
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  21. darthfettus2015 Jedi Grand Master

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    Nov 15, 2012
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    I always wonder what would have happened if he had allowed Anakin to be part of the arrest of Palpatine? Would Anakin have killed the Sith at that point or was he already too far gone at that point. Its interesting to say when the point of no return was for Anakin
    Last edited by darthfettus2015, Sep 5, 2013
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    A sacrifice? I guess I cannot regard Yoda and Obi-Wan's actions in a positive light. One, they achieved nothing, other than ensuring that Anakin and Padme's twins remain hidden. Two, they failed to sense that the game - so to speak- was over for the Jedi at this point. Even if they had succeeded in killing Palpatine and Anakin, I have doubts that their actions would have any good consequences for the remaining Jedi. And three, they were too stupid to realize that evil will always exist, just as good will. Neither the Jedi or the Sith seem capable of completely destroying their enemy, despite their efforts. And I believe the reason is that Palpatine was right - the two orders were two sides of one coin. Palpatine managed to use this argument as means to seduce Anakin to the Sith way of thinking. But he obviously did not practice what he had preached. Like the Jedi, he seemed to think that the only way for Force users of his kind can exist is by the extermination of the opposition. That's like destroying one half of one's self.
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 5, 2013
  23. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

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    I think, as Gartin says, how the senate felt about things was beyond the Jedi's concern by the time Yoda came face to face with Sidious. The Senate, and probably all the other branches of government, were completely in Sidious's pocket, so legal and constitutional means would've been futile. At that point, I believe Yoda would happily have seen the dismantling of the Jedi Order by the Senate, if it had meant the end of Sith rule.

    As to the flip sides of the coin, I think that the dark side can never be completely destroyed as it's an integral part of the balanced force. But Yoda wasn't trying to destroy the dark side, he was trying to destroy the Sith, who are not needed for balance, and in Sidious's case, are in fact the driver for imbalance.
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  24. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    I personally don't think it would have made a difference. For Anakin, the choice between the Sith and the Jedi essentially came down to what they could offer him: the Jedi could offer him the respect and recognition he had long craved while the Sith could offer him the power to save his wife.

    So for me, the point of no return for Anakin was the moment Palpatine revealed that by joining the Dark side, Anakin could achieve the power to stop his loved ones from dying.
  25. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    And this is why I found Yoda's actions unwise. He was so determined to end the Sith rule, he never considered that he was too late to do anything about it. He never considered the possibility of running away to fight another day . . . when the time was right. I believe that being in touch with the Living Force would have suited Yoda a lot more than giving in to anger. No wonder he murmured to himself about how he had failed, while fleeing from Palpatine.


    The Sith is one side of a coin and the Jedi is the other. They balance each other, even if they refuse to consider this. Which is probably why they never have been able to completely destroy one another. And probably never will.
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