Saga Was Mace Windu right to want to kill a captive Palpatine? Were the Jedi right to want to take over?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Ghost, May 1, 2013.

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  1. MOC Yak Face Moderator, Classic Trilogy

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    With respect, I think you're confusing the light and dark sides of the force with the Jedi and Sith .
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yes, it is the balance of the Force, not the balance of the users.
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  3. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Palpatine was evil and responsible for a galactic war the deaths of billions, not to mention he intended to transform the Republic into a dictatorship, essentially eliminating the rights of every Republic citizen. So yeah, kill him.

    As for the Jedi taking over, it certainly sounded like what was best for the galaxy. Should the remaining Senators have been put in charge it could very well have led to civil war. I don't think Yoda was that mad for power.
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  4. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    Had Yoda been on Coruscant he would have went with mace to arrest or possibly kill Sidious. When Yoda did arrive he went straight for him too. However after facing the Sith Lord Yoda realized the he was not powerful enough to defeat the dark lord. So that is when he decided to go into exile and wait to fight another day or train somebody else to take them down. He knew that the Jedi had to survive or the sith would never be defeated. There is no difference in what mace done and what Yoda done. They both knew that the sith had to be defeated at all cost. "Destroy the Sith we must " Yoda.
  5. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    Well I take that back. The only difference was is that when Mace tried Sidious was the chancellor of a democracy and when Yoda tried he was the dictator of an empire.
  6. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    Exactly. Mace preemptively did what he knew would have to be done before it happened.
  7. Emperor Von Schweetz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 1
    It bothers me that Mace was about to arrest Palpatine just because Anakin said that he was a bad guy. Anakin never said that Palpatine said that he was a sith, and he didn't have any real proof that he was, anyways. He said that he was strong in the ways of the dark side, but that was all.

    Call me crazy, but I would want to have solid evidence before I arrested someone, or ended their life.
  8. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    Mace knew that Anakin and the Chancellor were very close and that Anakin would not have came to him with those accusations unless something was very out of place. The Jedi were already suspicion of the Chancellor and knew that the dark side surrounded him. The council did go there with the intension of arresting him but it wasnt until the Chancellor drew his crimson light saber and killed three of them that Mace knew without a doubt that he was in fact a Sith Lord and that is when he decided to kill him.
  9. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    star 4
    I've always felt that Mace didn't handle his conversation with Anakin too well - he doesn't press him on how he discovered Palpatine was a Sith, he just tells him to back off and let the grownups deal with it. As a result, Anakin is more conflicted than ever.

    If Anakin had revealed that Palpatine had told him that he was a Sith and wanted to help him, Mace could have simply said he was obviously being manipulated and should steer clear for his own safety, but thanks for letting us know, you've been a big help, stand by, blah blah blah.
  10. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    He did not trust Anakin. IMO I don't think he even liked him. He was Anakins superior and knew that Anakin was very conflicted and confused. Mace did underestimate the Sith Lord but regardless Annakin should have done what he was told. Annakin shouldn't have even questioned a Jedi Master of Mace Windu's caliber.
  11. JediMasterKeno Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2000
    star 1
    Mace Windu was in the wrong. So was Anakin about Palpatine. Who's gonna believe those Jedi that Palapatine is a sith lord? You think any of the other politicians are gonna listen to you if you tell them Palpatine was an evil Sith lord? No.
  12. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    Yes, Mace Windu was very much right in his intent to kill Sidious. The act is both utilitarian and necessary. Sidious had to be killed. It was the right thing to do.

    Really, this should go without saying. Sidious is much more than just "too dangerous to be left alive." As a Sith, he is a danger to the galaxy. And this is Darth Sidious, the final and greatest Sith Lord in history: the Sith Lord who had seeded so much corruption in the Republic, who had caused so much suffering, who had launched a war that had taken the innocent lives of many, who had stripped away the power of the Republic, the power of the people.

    With the demise of Sidious, all other problems diminish greatly; the Republic would have survived it's greatest threat. Dishonest, greedy politicians would be swiftly removed, Palpatine's cabinet would be dissolved, the Clone wars would end, Bail Organa might have become Supreme Chancellor, etc. All in all, the Republic and Jedi Order would be looking towards a bright future.

    It's a good thing if the Jedi take over. Their Order had its flaws but their hearts were in the right place; to protect and serve the people. Anybody thinking otherwise has clearly fallen to Sidious' lies: the Jedi were stagnant, not corrupt, and their stagnancy allowed corruption to spread. They had become increasingly dogmatic, blindly paying adherence to principles such as serving the Senate on the basis that serving the Senate was the best way to serve the people. Yet, they didn't realize that this was slowly becoming untrue; simply following the Senate, which had become corrupt, was actually a disservice. By looking back at the conflict, I think they would have realized their flaws and changed their ways.
  13. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    If a religious order took over my government, despite their "good" intent and without my consent and illegally, I would be pissed off. Even if the Jedi had recognized their flaws and changed their ways, who is to say that their flaws would not re-assert themselves? Remember . . . the Jedi were no more perfect than the Senate.


    If I had a citizen of the Republic, I would be angry at the thought of the Jedi taking over the government.
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 28, 2013
  14. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Even if you found out that the leader of the Republic is a Sith lord who conspired with the leader of the Separatists, who is also a Sith lord to create a war that will eliminate both the Jedi Order and the Republic? Noone, not even you, would want a traitorous war criminal to continue leading their government. Perhaps, if the Jedi had looked for evidence first which will incriminate PalpSidious and then present them to the senate, then they'll all agree to remove PalpSidious from office. As it is, the Jedi may have been foolish to go after PalpSidious without thinking but they weren't wrong in trying to kill him as he demonstrated that "he's too dangerous to be left alive" like Mace said
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  15. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    If a religious order had as good of a track record as the Jedi did, and if their mortal enemies had as rotten a record as the Sith did, I'd be willing to at least hear them out.

    It's like Yoda said in ROTS, "to a dark and dangerous place this will lead us". He knows that overthrowing the Chancellor would be undemocratic and would undermine the trust that the Republic's citizens have in the Jedi...but he also knows that doesn't have a choice.
  16. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 4
    I read somewhere about an Order 67. "In the event that the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) is killed by Jedi, all Jedi are to be considered traitors and immediately executed as enemies of the Republic. Not sure whether this is canon or not, but it makes sense. If the Jedi murdered the Chancellor, the clones would probably turn on them immediately. Don't forget that the clones serve Darth Sidious, and that Palpatine probably had a contingency plan in place, in case he was somehow killed.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4


    Even if.

    If the Jedi had taken over the Senate without any real authority or the consent of the people, they would end up being guilty of oppression, even if their intent was good. If you honestly believe that the citizens of the Republic would be grateful, then I cannot help but feel that you are sadly mistaken.
  18. Yondo Kuromu Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2013
    star 1
    Mace was acting too rash. Did he really had a consent with Yoda? He could've made Palpatine get a blood test to have a midichlorian count. He can also send his Jedi Knights out to track and retrieve holograms of Darth Sidious. Placing an untrustworthy spy to look at Palpatine is just a foolish idea, since once a traitor, always a traitor. They should've brought up Republic laws and use it against the Chancellor, since he's up to term, try and make a statement on why he's still in office, point out the plot holes of his ideals, if the senate agrees with you, then call for a vote of no confidence. If Palpatine still doesn't comply, get the senate's approval to arrest him. Lack of evidence is really hard to call on the warrant on that person's arrest.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Revenge of the Sith novel hints at it:

    In the virtual nonspace of the HoloNet, two Jedi Masters meet.
    One is ancient, tiny, with skin of green leather and old wisdom in his eyes, standing in a Kashyyyk cave hollowed from the trunk of a vast wroshyr tree; the other is tall and fierce, seated before a holodisk in Coruscant's Jedi Temple.
    To each other, they are blue ghosts, given existence by scanning lasers. Though they are light-years apart, they are of one mind; it hardly matters who says what.
    Now they know the truth.
    For more than a decade, the Republic has been in the hands of the Sith.
    Now, together, blue ghost to blue ghost, they decide to take it back.
  20. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I guess that means both Yoda and Mace had come to a rash decision regarding Palpatine.
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    How is that oppression? The Republic didn't want someone associated with the Separatists in charge of their government. The actions of the Jedi would be met with skepticism, but once the matter was before the Senate and the courts, with the evidence of Palpatine's guilt with everything, their tune would change. The Jedi would standby and let free elections take place and the best candidate would win.
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Yoda, Mace and Ki-Adi were about to make a decision on who would run the Republic without the consent of the citizens and their representatives. That is forcing your will upon others without their consent . . . especially in an area in which their consent is required. Even Palpatine was not that stupid and arrogant. He became leader of the Galactic via the consent of the citizens and representatives . . . even if he was manipulating them. The Jedi leaders didn't even considering this.

    If they wanted Palpatine no longer head of the Republic, they should have considered trying to find ways to expose him. But they didn't, because they were too arrogant in their sense of goodness and their belief that they had the right to enforce their will upon the Galaxy without the citizens' consent . . . a mistake that even Palpatine was consistently making by the time of the Rebellion.

    I really hate it when people think they have the right to enforce their will upon others . . . even if they're doing so with good intentions. Apparently, such people have never heard of the phrase - "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".



    When? If you listen to the three Jedi Masters' conversation, they were not only considering removing Palpatine from office (without the Senate's consent), but also allowing the Jedi to rule in his stead.


    I've also noticed something else. When discussing Mace's actions, many tend to criticize him. When discussing the actions of the Jedi Council in regard to removing Palpatine from office, they defend the actions or decisions of the group as a whole. Why?
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 24, 2013
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The point was not that the Jedi would rule, but that the Jedi would take control temporarily so that there could be a transition and others would rule. From the script:

    MACE WINDU: That could be a dangerous move ... the Jedi Council would have to take control of the Senate in order to secure a peaceful transition...

    Kl-ADI-MUNDI: ...and replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 24, 2013
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  24. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Let me repeat myself. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

    Adi-Mundi stated that they would have to "replace the Congress with Senators who are not filled with greed and corruption". Gee, I wonder how they planned to do that? How did the Jedi plan to ensure that only certain senators can be elected into the Senate? Does this mean that the citizens of the Republic will have no say on who would be their candidates? Or that each system will require the approval of the Jedi Council on who can run for office?
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 25, 2013
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    While bad intentions lead to Fluffy Bunny Land, I take it?
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