Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Old_Zen, Jan 4, 2006.
Yes, I would say that.
We all know she kissed him to make han jealous...but she still KISSED HIM!!! Would you let your sister kiss you like that? Plus Luke thoroughly enjoyed it. You can make excuses for it all day...but it's still disturbing. When the next generation of kids watch the films in 1 to 6 order...I can guarantee they will find that part gross.
Wheter or not GL meant to put in this "incest" (using that word here very lightly as I have to agree with Farth_Sinster on the whole kiss scens being only, A kiss of jealousy and a good luck Kiss) you mention, or any homosexual characters, which I do not personaly think either as I said in previous posts, I believe it all to be a power lust between Ani and Sid, I do think he has tried to make some underlying statements on sexual orintation through out the films, but very discretly, take for example "interplanatery relationships, in how many of the bar scenes have we seen different spices with one another.
So If I make out with my sister it's not incest? Thats exactly what it is. It's O.K. to admit Lucas made a mistake here....
leia grabs Luke head and leans in and delivers a passionate kiss....I don't even know who brought up A new Hope because that ones excusable. The Empire one isn't....Leia gives a passionate kiss...and Luke enjoys it. Gross.
I don't think Lucas made a mistake. After ROTJ revealed the brother sister thing, I'm sure the idea of deleting the kiss from ESB was tossed on the table when they were re-tooling the special editions. I bet this was a hot debate for a while at LFL, and probably still is.
But would you say that it is undeniably there?
Well...if there is talk of deleting it then its a mistake. The guy isn't god man....this scene should prove that. This is why you shouldn't write trilogies as you go.....you run into problems like that. O.K...consider this....Yoda says..."there is another" in the same movie.........seems to me like Leia was already realized as the sister, if not, then lucas decided to make her at the last minute which is kind of ignorant of prior events.
Admitting flaws like this doesn't make you less of a fan...nothings perfect.
getting back to the thread's stated topic:
palpatine was in love with anakin's power potential. that truly is it. any overtones of "love" is deliberate but it's false - palaptine's addressing anakin as "son" was purely to mislead, as always. virtually any actions or words that expressed concern, love, anything positive - was always with a motive. and that motive was manipulation: 1st turn anakin then use his powers. he never cared for anakin. he only cares about his empire and unlimited power. always.
I wholeheartedly agree.
The GL fanboys are out in full force today. I can't believe some of the well thought out and inspiring arguements claiming GL's dual trilogy is perfect and has no inconsistancies or questionable sexual inuendo.
With arguements like "There is no gayness in star wars" and statements to the effect of "Leia wasn't sexually attracted to Luke", it's no wonder the movies are so poorly understood.
Open your minds and explore the unintentional/intentional meanings behind the character's motivations. Admit that your hero GL messed up some parts of this story and is confused when he talks about 'balance'. He obviously has no clue what the term means.
Sex exists in the two trilogies, and to deny that is being closeminded and in the case of the new trilogy, borderline homophobic.
I would just like to add that it's been said that the LOVE triangle between Leia,Han,And Luke was more noticable before Return of the Jedi came out. It's obvious that Luke and Leia were attracted to each other.
Luke is happy when Han says he's trying not to think of her, and then gets mad when he suggests the two of them hook up. His eyes light up with glee when she kisses him on Yavin 4. He leans back and is on cloud nine after the passionate kiss in ESB. The sexual attraction between brother and sister is there. It REALLY is....sorry.
We have to remember that Lucas, while a film maker, was extending Joseph Campbell's tenets of mythology through his Star Wars saga. Many plot devices are a retelling of a cultureless, all encompassing myth. There are heroes, villians, monsters, comedians, quests, failures, redemptions, resurrections, immaculate conceptions and boundless interactive relationships. All are intended to convey the meanings and lessons of life to the audience.
What we each choose to see or get out of these films may differ along the edges, but the main lessons are fairly clear for all to see:
- family and relationships are important
- heroes might fail, but some become greater heroes because the pick themselves up and try again
- there are good people and bad people, and often the baddies win
- bad things happen to good people
- each of us only reaches or achieves are destiny when we face our challenges instead of running from them
- something higher guides us, binds us
There are many more key lessons. GL has left us with some open ended areas where we can form our own conclusions, such as how was Anakin conceived, who was his father (if anyone) and others. These are left to us to decide, but in doing so we label the outcome with our own views and social norms. GL may or may not have intended what we think we see. But that is the magic of his film making style.
Both GL and Ian McDiarmid have stated that Palpatine was more of a father figure to Anakin. This is why Anakin trusted him so. Reading anything beyond this is beyond the scope on GLs story telling. But if it adds more meaning to the saga for us to do so, I'm sure he would approve.
Can we please move away from the incest/Luke and Leia discussion. That is not what this thread is about.
Thank you very much to the people who can discuss this topic maturely without resorting to gay bashing or gay jokes. If you cannot, then don't post here. I am two seconds away from locking it if the general maturity level isn't stepped up.
The incest talk seems to be a necessary evil, in order to put the content discussed in this thread in its proper context, but now that it is out of the way we can get on with the subtle undertones and parallel's/characteristics of sidious being in-love with anakin.
I would be very dissapointed if this thread was locked, it is the freshest and most intellectually engaging topic I have yet posted in.
that's a bit absolute, isn't it?
apparently i'm not the only one seeing palps enjoying the dominance he has over anakin. anakin literally kneels down in front of him. the guy could actually kick palps' arse and end his reign right there but he chooses to *pledge* himself to palps' teachings and succumb to his influence.
so much work that palps has put into making anakin. so much pleasure from seeing it all put into motion and come true. the guy is most definitely power happy.
i'm thinking you're off. of course palps always has a motive, but i would sincerely doubt that the expressions of concern and love that we use are somehow motiveless. where does that leave the argument? i don't know.
i think palps enjoyed domination. and anakin was used to being dominated. so he easily accepted his *fate* and ran with it. to me it looks like the pleasure is on palps' side, whereas anakin is clearly disgusted with it. so palps is 'gay' for lack of better description, and anakin is 'straight'.
Palps does also fit into the domination role well, and Anakin is written as submissive to him.
yeah, they fit each other like a glove.
This topic is controversial but interesting. I remember reading one movie review that stated that Palps seduced Anakin like an "old queen." And so what if some ****-erotic subtext exists? Is that so terrible? My gay friends do see some subtext in Star Wars and so what. If R2 and 3P0 love each other, and are both socially contructed to be boys, so be it.
As far as Luke and Leia go, incest is a part of Greek tragedy and drama. They didn't know they were related. I find it slightly amusing anyways- like watching Greg and Marcia in the Brady Bunch movie. Their kiss was not like Han and Leia's kiss in intensity and never was to my eyes.
I agree that Sith cannot love. But they can Lust. Personally, I think Palps only lusts after Anakin's power. Palps is like the Devil and I don't think the Devil has sex, except on South Park.
Lucas chooses his words carefully. Anakin has a *lust* for power and is *seduced* by the Dark Side of the Force. These words have sexual connotations - like it or not. The Master and Servant relationship has sexual connotations as well - like it or not.
I agree completely, if one studies the most perfect example of evil in our society ("power-assertive killers aka sexual serial killers) you'll see that lust has alot to do with everything. In fact I've been reading Peter Vronsky's "Serial Killers: The Method and Madness of Monsters" and I've found that the mass majority of serial killers hate women because of their mother and they're need to assert power over them.
Of course nothing is universal but you get my drift.
What does this have to do with starwars?
Well Palpatine is an evil dude and so yes his fetish is the dark side of the force. So when the chosen one is using the darkside, I think it's only natural for him to be feelin good.
Come on guys it just shows how damn evil he is, evil dude...evil dude.
The point I was making is that these stories are inspired by saturday morning sci fi serials for kids. I'm talking about stuff like Buck Rogers and Flash Gordon. Sex in general is already a complicated subject matter, not to mention gay sex which for a young child is much more complicated. Even though many of us are adults doesn't change what the story is inspired from. And given the content of the OT the issue of childbirth had to be brought up to account for the twins. But notice the concept of sex is never mentioned. For those who don't know any better (namely young children) the kids are born from kissing. The point is, this is not a series based on gritty reality but fantasy filled with heroes and villains.
Also my comments on the nature and course of this thread are intended to add to the debate. Part of that debate process can and sometimes includes a negative opineon about a theory a thread is born from. I can't express that opineon if I don't include myself in the text. This is why suggesting that if someone doesn't like a thread they shouldn't post in it goes against the whole point of an open forum. Negative criticism is fair game in my opineon. Afterall the whole point of this is to share and learn from each other. My comments are always aimed at setting the record straight according to how I see it. I feel I owe it to the author to be honest and if that means saying that the thread topic is ridiculous then I feel I have done my duty in giving honest feedback. For me to sugercoat it or remain silent is a diservice to not only the author but the forum community.
With that in mind I wouldn't advocate bashing your opineon that those not liking a thread should skip over it. For one thing you may hold that view in the interest of harmony and regardless it has just as much merit as anything I would say if it's honest feedback. I just wanted to point out why I posted on a topic I feel is ridiculous.
You want to talk incest, do it in another thread. And furthermore, don't call people Lucas fanboys. That's a good way to start baiting people.
your point is taken.
what's interesting is that the political aspect (also of the PT) is also not for kids or kids friendly. it's there and we discuss it here to no end. so, apparently, while things sometimes aren't mentioned out loud by a character, we can still talk about them, right?
i think dark disciple didn't aim that specifically at you. it's just that this thread has seen many a gay basher in the short time frame of its existence and people who like the topic sometimes make blanket statements.
and now let's get back to the topic, yah?
This is just silly. Submerging yourself in the Dark Side kills your capacity to experience romantic love.
The theory I would put forward is that all those who come to the Dark Side do so by love, but once arriving, only can linger in the memory of it.
Uh, is that possible with a thread like this??
DarthGroznii said: "The theory I would put forward is that all those who come to the Dark Side do so by love, but once arriving, only can linger in the memory of it."
Good theory, however, we do not know what brought Palpatine or his mentor Plagueis to the dark side, and so cannot use them to support your premise.
Anakin, IMO, does not love Padme as much as he merely possesses her, a distinct dark side tendency. Padme is, for all intents and purposes, Shmi Skywalker in Anakin's eyes! Up until Shmi dies, Anakin is merely infatuated with Padme. After Shmi's death, Padme becomes an obsession for Anakin.
Oedepus Rex in all but name, Anakin constantly reminds Padme that he will not lose her the way he lost his mother, fail her the way he failed his mother. Padme will not suffer or die like Anakin's mother did years ago on Tatooine.
Anakin is pretty confused regarding the true meaning of love. His mother loved him so much she accepted his freedom without gaining her own. Like any 9 year old, Anakin did not fully appreciate what his mother's love meant to him, for him, or just how total his mother's love really was. But when Shmi's love was removed permanently with her death, he felt an unbearable emptiness, a dark void in his life. After Shmi's death, Anakin ordains a suitable substitute in Padme. She will replace the void left by Shmi.
The relationship is familiar. Anakin must tend to his Jedi duties across the far reaches of the galaxy as the Clone Wars rage, while Padme/Shmi is left to fend for herself. Palpatine, ever observant, ascertains Anakin's possessive relationship (good for a Sith) and fear of losing Padme (also good for a Sith). How Palpatine specifically learns of Anakin's concerns at Padme's death is not totally clear in the movie, but Palpatine uses Anakin's possessive love for Padme as the keystone in Anakin's seduction to the dark side.
Seduction -- dark side -- apprentice and master. I must admit that all of these beg for the most intimate comparisons. As I read the posts of others and rethink my own posts, I think that if there is anything to the Palps/Ani relationship, it is psychological and not physical.
One final comment: The topic of the thread is thought provoking, and certainly forces us to examine the true nature of the relationship between Palps, Padme and Ani. For this, I sincerely commend you, Old_Zen.
agreed there is no such thing like a text book sith career, it seems. i should think anakin is the first to become a sith out of love.
not sure where you get a dark side tendency from. what is this?