Was Palpatine in-love with Anakin's Power?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Old_Zen, Jan 4, 2006.

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  1. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I think Anakin's love for Padme has been grossly underestimated. Yes he had attachment issues which became his fatal flaw BECAUSE he was a Jedi and called for a higher purpose than common beings. But his love was still very genuine. It was rooted in the family life that he had as a child; something the Jedi were ignorant of. His actions weren't even crimes of passion, because his love for her began long before puberty. His was a love rooted in his childhood. It was something much more pure and innocent than the physical need of adulthood.

    This is why Luke was able to reach him, because it was through a very GOOD weakness that Anakin fell into Sidious' snare. That good quality was preserved as a result and left dormant because it is the ROOT of his fall to darkness. It was also this ROOT that saved him. Anakin did the things that he did because it was demanded of him by the one who held Padme's life in his hands (or so he believed)

    The thing about attachment is it's very nature enslaves people to their mortal lives. This is why Hindu beliefs are based on abandoning attachment; to get closer to God. If Anakin feared for his own life, then I could see how his attachment to Padme was based on possesion. But Anakin was freely willing to trade his own life, even his soul, for Padme's. In his own death he would have lost Padme. So by default, the attachment isn't centered on greed, but compassion and love. This is even further demonstrated when he steps in to save Luke.

    The Jedi didn't understand love. All they recognised are the flaws linked to attachment that can be associated with Jedi and so they do their best to train against those occurances.
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi do understand love. They encourage it. What Anakin's problem is that his love is unhealthy. He becomes obsessed with people. So obsessed with keeping people that his love becomes possessive. The Jedi encourage compassionate love, which means that you love freely. Without attaching yourself to another person, thus refusing to accept that things change. Anakin didn't want to trade his life for Padme. He traded the lives of everyone; Jedi, Separatist and civilian for Padme. He was being selfish because he was thinking of himself and what he wanted, rather than what Padme wanted. Which was to just leave everything behind them and go off. But he was so obsessed with being all powerful, that it replaced his love for Padme. She was no longer his top priority.

    No matter what, you cannot justify what Anakin wanted to do as a good thing. Because it isn't.
  3. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    if they understood love and didn't just pigeonhole it into good and bad, they would have known what a lover is going through when facing the prospect of losing his love.

    since they don't understand it, they cannot help him. it's the simplest i can put it.
  4. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    if they understood love and didn't just pigeonhole it into good and bad, they would have known what a lover is going through when facing the prospect of losing his love. .


    But they didnt pigeonhole it into good or bad, there is selfish love and selfless love. Also they do understand what anakin is going through, thats the purpose of the discussion between Yoda and Anakin. Yoda is telling Anakin not to mis judge a situation. In other words concentrate on the here and now. Anakin is too busy trying to change people's fate that he was not focused on the here and now. Padme would not have died had he kept his mind here and not into the future.

  5. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    maybe you don't understand the concept of pigeonholing.

    there is selfish love and selfless love. this is it. saying there is good and bad love is not even getting close to what love encompasses.
  6. DUGGY Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2005
    star 4
    This is meant as a mature and serious discussion nexus for the open-minded, secure and considerate of different points of view people. Palpatine in ROTS comes off as a child-Molester sicko freak,

    so this theory is certaintly not reaching. You can watch ROTS with this in mind and it would make sense. Palpatine certaintly sounds like he's getitng an orgasm when people do evil dark things..does he get a sexual charge out of evil? Like many people think the devil in many cultures and religions do? This could have been deliberate as a subtle nudge by Lucas, being he loves to link together all magor religous themes in his myth.


    [face_laugh] First. how could this thread last this long?. Funny you see him having a Orgasm. and i See him Drunk, Intoxicated by the Dark side and his growing Power. which are not the same thing!.. you know that Force flowing through you thing? . I guess that Makes Yoda and all the Jedi pervs too, cause that is exactly what Yoda tells Luke. and i think you can even hearsimilar tones in in Yoda's voice. picture the little pervs voice saying " feel the Force Flowing through youin ESB, with his eyes closed and all concentrating. just like Palps. I don't know why that would be confusd with Sexual release? he gets a charge when he does Evil things Because he is the Personification of Evil. and the Evil is flowing through his being. It is more telling of the Poster than the Character to come up with this angle. I saw a Man embracing the Dark Side and growing in power from it.

    And the three pointer...

    Was there a deeper meaning to why Palpatine wanted Anakin/Vader as his little pager boy?


    If there is then he just stole a peice of *** from the Jedi that's all. maybe that's what you think it is really all about. the Sith are Jealous cause the Jedi get all the fresh meat?. ridiculous. mnaybe you spent to much time among Catholic priests as a child. i don't know. i mean come on. Palps was fully aware of the Prophecy, and he , as QuiGon could sense Anakins Force Potential. not the Potential you speak of. :rolleyes: . so he watched over and Guided him. he knew Anakin was going to be his Apprentice since Darth Maul died. one could twist many SW situations like this. Maybe Chewie and Han had something going too?. Chewie is pretty protective of Han , and they do fight like a old married couple. lol

    (If you accept this point of view, the movie takes on another interesting way to look at it....A love triangle between Padme-Anakin-Palpatine with Palpatine winning in the end. Sidious smile at the end signifies he is happy she is dead because he won.)


    if i took this angle . which i can't . because contrary to your POV. it is reaching. it is definitely not intentional Innuendo implanted inthe Movie By Lucas. the guy is not about stuff like that. Maybe if Tarantino directed this, then i would say you may have something. but Lucas. sorry . just waaaay too far a stretch for me.
  7. The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2005
    star 1
    Amazing. I've finally found something you and I agree on. The Emporer, in my estimation, doesn't think about anything but power and how to increase his standings. There was no intimate relationship between the two. That's like insinuating that Han Solo and Chewbacca had a fling because they were shown in many scenes together. It's just Lucas' attempt at conveying Anakin's fall to the Dark Side with as much brevity allowed in the span of 2 hours. He's not trying to say that Sidious was fatherly towards Anakin as much as displaying how intense the corruption was between this once-young Padawan and the politician from Naboo who befriended him and gave the praise him the Jedi Masters neglected to give him for his brave deeds. They were both leeching off of the other's standings. It's just that Palpatine was the much wiser and world-weary, fully aware what Anakin's role in his plans entailed, whereas Anakin was impulsive and so short-sighted as to believe that Palpatine was a political puppet he could relate to in comparison.

    Now if only we could agree on the Anakin vs. Palpatine thread more often...
  8. KILLER-CLONE Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 28, 2005
    star 1
    Okay, i think I've deciphered that sentence after the 10th read. Mature and serious? Gimme a break. How can you kick off a serious discussion with terms like "child-molester sicko freak"

    No.

    No.

    No.

    You know, plenty of more 'qualified' critics have tried to find hom0-erotic metaphors in Star Wars and every time they come up short. Why? Because it's not there.

    Perhaps it says more about the person making those claims than it does about the films themselves.
  9. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    Amazing. I've finally found something you and I agree on.

    I'm glad we can agree on something, The_Chibi_Kiriyama. If the Emperor has a passion for anything other than power, the movies don't show it. I think the best way to form an accurate interpretation is to go by what we know as facts, or at least what we have a reasonable explanation for. This will keep the most consistency with Lucas' vision and avoid making unfounded assumptions.

    As you mentioned, there's no more reason to believe that anything is going on between the Emperor and Anakin than there is to think the same about Han and Chewie- or Luke and Han, Anakin and Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan and Padme, etc. Unless the movie gives us a clear reason to believe that two characters are attracted to each other, I don't think there's any reason to speculate about it.

    There are certainly films that include sexual subtexts, but Star Wars isn't one of them. All of the instances where characters have feelings towards each other are made obvious in the films. We know that Anakin and Padme are in love- as are Han and Leia, Shmi Skywalker and Cliegg Lars, Owen and Beru, and the Organas. This is not the case with Anakin and the Emperor because the films never say that there is any sexual tension between the two of them, nor is it shown.
  10. Kia-Ruse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 1
    I think this is the BEST I have ever seen it put! They don't understand it, so they can't help him!

    Also, and I am a little biased but I still always 'feel' the 'good' in Anakin/Vader when he says 'Love won't save you Padme, only my new powers can do that' He has an understanding of 'The Force' and the nature of things the way the Jedi NEVER could/would have!

    And does The Emperor 'love' Anakin? Ummmm, no I don't think, but by what conception of the word 'love' do we mean? Respect, honour, trust, maybe, (the touch on his forehead as he lays on the shore of Mustafar I like to think as an 'affectionate' touch') but love? No. I don't think The Emperor is capable.

  11. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Honestly, if you asked GL this question in a "Q&A" session, he may very well ask you to leave the room. It reminds me of the time a journalist asked if Jar Jar was a racist character. GL was furious at that question, could you imagine what he would say to a suggestion of a Man/Child sexually-oriented love?

    The beauty of SW is its' simplicity. The only thing that went far deeper than many critics could follow was the taxation issue from TPM. Beyond that topic, it's all very clear cut and I feel confident that GL did not have a sexual fixation in mind with Palpy and Anakin.
  12. dont_be_a_vaderhater Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Unfortunatly Kia-Ruse, the original poster is
    asking if you think Palpatine is IN-LOVE with Anakin.[face_sick]
  13. Dark_Disciple Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 3
    farrellg posted:

    This is not the case with Anakin and the Emperor because the films never say that there is any sexual tension between the two of them, nor is it shown.

    I agree, and I think the author of this thread did not imply it was a two way thing. This is just from Palps point of view, what he may be 'feeling' one way or the other about Anakin. It never appears in the film that Anakin is interested in Palps in a sexual way at all. Where this is interesting is considering what Palps/Sids made of Anakin's seeming submissiveness when he kneels before him in the turn scene. His plan coming together after all these years of course would have made him giddy and excited having it all come to fruition. I think it was darth_frared that said, Sids must have enjoyed seeing that (Anakin's demonstration of complete servitude), the supposed Chosen One, at his beck and call, whatever the manner of that enjoyment may have been.
  14. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, I know. I'm confused as to your point. Would you please re-state it? [face_peace]
  15. jedixesiria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2005
    star 2
    No he was i love with destroying all jedi and like a woman or a man he would love just to destroy it!
  16. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Could you please restate this point ... I am having trouble following your meaning.
  17. dont_be_a_vaderhater Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Well, I was answering Kia-Ruse' question as to what kind of
    love was being discussed. I was distinguishing that the original
    poster did'nt ask "does Palps LOVE Anakin" (which Kia seemed to
    be thinking) rather "is Palps IN-LOVE with Anakin".

    2 totally different things.
  18. jedixesiria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2005
    star 2
    when you set your goal on a task no matter if it is good or bad you do what you have to.
  19. jedixesiria Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2005
    star 2
    you love what you need to love to get the quest at hand done.
  20. Bend_Ovi_Kenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2006
    Are you doing this on purpose?

    I would like to understand your point, could you please try to be a little more clear as to what you are trying to convey here?
  21. The_Chibi_Kiriyama Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2005
    star 1
    Palpatine loves Anakin: shows affection, brings up morale, general praise and care, etc.
    Palpatine is in love with Anakin: shows sexual pleasure, indicates intimacy, acknowledges relationship, etc.

    I don't know how simpler to diferentiate the two. I think that's what these last posters have been trying to state in however brief a monologue they can describe it in. It's also why posters like me find no link between their relationship and sexual innuendo or molestation.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Maybe you shouldn't make assumptions you know nothing about, regarding me.

    No, it is exactly. I have no idea of what your personal life is away from these boards. Nor will I presume to assume, like you have with me. But I can tell you that Lucas is right. It is based on real life, which is what myths are. Examinations of the human condition. In life there is two types of love. There is the dangerous kind and there is the safer form. The dangerous love is the kind of love that makes up abusive relationships and people who become obsessive with those that they care for. Where they become the dominate one in the relationship and will make it their point to put someone in their place. Where if it's a man who is the agressor, he will put his woman in her place if she gets out of line. My aunt was with a guy who was obsessive, violent, a bit possessive and egotisical. His idea of love is the attachment kind that Lucas speaks of. The wrong kind of love. The kind that kills if left unchecked. The other kind of love is the kind where people aren't violent towards each other. Where they are equal partners. Where they care for the other and have only their best interests at heart, rather than their own.

    Anakin didn't care what Padme wanted. He only cared about what he wanted. He never asks her if this is right. He never asks for her help. He never takes her feelings into consideration. It's all about him and that's selfish. That's wrong. That's attachment as Lucas defines it. That's not compassionate love. When Han steps aside for Leia, that's compassion. He thinks only of her needs, not his own. He doesn't draw his blaster and say that she's his and no one will take her from him. He acts like a man and doesn't let his emotions rule him.


    Yoda did help him. He told him to let go of his fears. That's all he had to do and Padme would still be safe and sound. His fears drive him to 'kill' her.

    He sees her as this naive child who doesn't know what he knows. Look at the smirk on his face, when he says this. He's so obsessed with power that he is not concerned with her well-being anymore. He's only concerned about himself. Note that he talks about his powers. Love is no longer important to him. His ability to use the Dark Side is what matters now. The ability to kill the Emperor and become Emperor himself. To rule the galaxy. To control people.
  23. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Yoda did help him. He told him to let go of his fears.

    That's not help, Sin, that's dogma.
    Instead of showing Anakin how, or even training him how
    in all those years, Yoda just told him to let go.
    It was all fortune-cookie, lip-service to the code.
    That's not help.

    His fears drive him to 'kill' her.

    His fears drive him to turn on her.
    She dies because she can't handle it
    and she can't adapt to life with the
    Anakin she was too blind to see
    and with the Republic gone.

    Anakin caused her death, I'll grant you,
    but saying he killed her is sort of stretching it.
  24. Dark_Disciple Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2005
    star 3
    darth-sinister posted:

    Anakin didn't care what Padme wanted. He only cared about what he wanted. He never asks her if this is right. He never asks for her help. He never takes her feelings into consideration. It's all about him and that's selfish. That's wrong. That's attachment as Lucas defines it. That's not compassionate love. When Han steps aside for Leia, that's compassion. He thinks only of her needs, not his own. He doesn't draw his blaster and say that she's his and no one will take her from him. He acts like a man and doesn't let his emotions rule him.

    On Anakin not caring about what Padme wanted, well he was written that way I guess, in the not listening dept, GL deliberately makes Anakin the example of bad attachment. This is SW nonetheless and Anakin's a Force user, everything comes back to that being the answer for a Jedi, and the same goes for Anakin. He thought he could turn to the Force for help, rather than rely on the sensible advice of an OB/GYN, but that would have made for a pedestrian story line, and as I said before, this is SW, its full of characters that can do all sorts of things and events happen that in RL would be daft and unbelievable. But there you have it, Anakin thinks Padme's life is in danger and unfortunately, through the subtle manipulations and conversations with palps, Anakin thinks the dark side is the answer to his problem. On the Han and Leia issue, well Han wouldn't have been able to do a thing about Leia if she'd chosen to walk away, she was a tough campaigner, Han knew a smart woman when he saw one, plus, her life at that point was not being threatened, so far as he could judge, and he was no Jedi either. No chance to get consumed by the dark side, he's no Force user. The contexts of the two situations are so disimilar as well that it's really hard to even see them as comparisons to throw up as examples of possessive vs compassionate love.
  25. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    sorry if you felt i stepped on your toes, sinister. that comment was directed at the force rocks or what the name is.
    exactly. i think people still haven't understood what the difference between teaching and telling is.
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