PT Was Palpatine responsible for Shmi Skywalker's death?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 20, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What does correct a mundo mean?
  2. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I think it could have come into existence without Anakin's contribution. The Republic and the Jedi were already on the road to their downfalls. If Anakin had not served as catalyst, someone or something else would have done the job. Palpatine was smart enough to comprehend the situation regarding both organizations . . . and simply made his plans. He had set his plans in motion even before he became aware of Anakin's existence. Now whether Palpatine would have succeeded or fail in creating the Empire is a answer I think no one can really answer.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Well. If Padme was never pregnant with Luke and leia, anakin wouldn't save Palpatine from mace windu, he would tell windu where palpatine is, and windu would kill the Emperor. So, if luke and leia never existed, the empire wouldnt exist.
  4. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    I'm still convinced that there is no answer to the question of whether Palpatine would have succeeded in creating the Empire.
  5. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Why not?

    Padme never gets pregnant with Luke and Leia...

    Anakin still has a friendship with Palpatine, and Palpatine at one point reveals his identity.....

    Anakin reports him to the Jedi council.....

    Anakin has no reason to keep Palpatine alive to save Padme, so he lets mace windu kill Palpatine....
  6. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    If there was no Anakin...hm...there would have been no one to tell Mace Windu that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. So Windu wouldn't have gone to the Chancellor's chamber to arrest him.
    So Palpatine would have just issued Order 66 regardless.
    Oh, and Obi-Wan would have died by getting killed by Dooku at the end of AOTC...
    And Qui-Gon would have had some big problems with finding a hyperdrive on Tatooine.
    And with no Anakin, I doubt that the Naboo pilots were to destroy the Federation ship in orbit. Anakin destroyed it only by sheer luck (read the Force) and from the inside.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 6, 2012
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    You're right. If Qui Gon never took Anakin to Coruscant, Windu wouldn't go to arrest Palpatine and get the chance to defeat him once and for all. So, either way, Palps lives. In the long run, Qui Gon bringing anakin to Coruscant as a Jedi didn't change anything. We agree on this..

    Why did Palpatine tell Anakin he was Darth Sidious, the Sith Lord who betrayed the Republic, started the Clone Wars, and betrayed the Republic? Why did he want anakin to know? If Padme wasnt pregnant, would he still tell anakin he was the Sith Lord?

    However, the question isn't about whether or not anakin existed or was taken to coruscant as a Jedi....I said if Padme never got pregnant and Anakin was on Coruscant, then, Palpatine would've been killed by Mace Windu and the Empire still exists. Because he, for whatever reasons he did, he tells Anakin, and Anakin tells Windu, and Windu kills Palpatine because Anakin doesn't stop that from happening because he isn't worried about keeping him alive to save Padme. Right or wrong?
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 6, 2012
  8. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Well...I guess the reason he admitted to Anakin he was a Sith was that he needed something to convince "little Annie" to join him.
    He says something like: Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn this power so you can save Padme. You can only learn it from me, because the Jedi can't help you in this matter (like he says during the Opera scene).
    And by this point Anakin was already recovering from his talk with Yoda where he was told basically to let go of everything he fears to lose. So that didn't help much.
    So Palpatine didn't have anything to lose at this point by flat out admitting he's a Sith. It was his plan all along to get Anakin as his apprentice and delaying the big reveal would have accomplished nothing. On the contrary, it had to be done before Greivous was killed and the Clone Wars brought to an end.

    As for what if Padme never got pregnant, it is debatable. Technically it is Anakin's fault first because he initiated the relationship. Second it was Padme's for accepting.
    However it is established that Anakin had some pretty serious problems with controlling his emotions. Shmi was killed and in return he committed mass murder. Palpatine knew this. And even Anakin was able to hide his emotions, he had no reason to do so while around the Chancellor. First of all because he trusted him and second because he didn't know who Palpatine was and that he can read minds.

    Since Palpatine is depicted as being patient and cunning, I am sure that he had other ways to convert Anakin, if the main plan failed. Notice how he immediately tries to convince Anakin that the Jedi don't trust him, that if they did they should have sent him on more missions, that they plan to overthrow the Senate and so on. And these things have nothing to do with Padmes possible death.
    So I guess that this was his second plan. And since the one with Padme dieing was successful, the second plan only further fueled Anakin's distrust in the Jedi.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 6, 2012
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4

    I don't understand what you're trying to say and how it relates to my post or explains anything........

    Are you saying it was predestined that Anakin falls to the darkside and becomes Vader?? Destiny???
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 6, 2012
  10. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Destiny is brought up a lot actually.
    Vader tells that to Luke on Cloud City. Then the Emperor tells that to Luke on the second Death Star.
    If "destiny" is something that even the Dark Lord of the Sith talks about, then it can be serious.
    Destiny is also brought up in the PT when Shmi says "He was meant to help you." Qui-Gon says "Us meeting was not a coincidence."
    In fact, the entire concept of the Chose One and the Prophecy implies a destiny.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 6, 2012
  11. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    So Anakin was predestined to become Darth Vader and fall to the darkside even if Luke and Leia were never conceived??
  12. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    It is a possibility. In the same way Luke's and Leia's births were predestined as well.
    Again, we don't know what the Prophecy said, we can only assume.
    But considering that the entire Jedi and Sith culture is based on premonitions, prophecies, it can be also true that Anakin's destiny (and his offspring's) held a darker secret. Hence "The Prophecy misread might have been" (Yoda).
    Everyone else talks about Anakin like he was meant to have a certain destiny. And all that inclines me to believe that regardless of the way the events took place, his fall to the Dark Side was unavoidable. Just like Luke's and Leia's birth.
  13. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Someone on this board said, I forgot the user's name, that Luke and Leia were nessecary for the defeat of the Galactic Empire. Is that true? I don't think so.

    Luke was called a new hope, their only hope. Luke told Leia that they were they only hope for the alliance. Throughout the OT Luke was called their only hope. Leia was called the other hope.

    Without Luke and Leia, the Emperor Palpatine/Darth Sidious would have died of old age. The Empire wouldn't exist for all eternity. Even if he had successors, there were other ways the Empire could be overthrown and democracy restored.

    Besides, Luke did not defeat the Empire. The Empire was destroyed when the 2nd Death Star exploded.
  14. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Evidently at this point it is just speculation. These things weren't spelled out until now. What we can do is base our opinions on what the movies show and our interpretation of those events.
    I always thought that Luke's presence on the Death Star kept the Emperor busy and slightly away from the actual combat.
    Because if he had nothing else to do, I doubt that he would have just stood in his throne room while the Rebels destroyed the Death Star.
  15. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Luke and Leia's births were not predestined.

    If Padme never became pregnant with the twins, would Anakin Skywalker fall to the darkside and become Lord Darth Vader?

    What darker secret?

    What do you mean the prophecy misread? What does that have to do with this? The prophecy was not misread. Anakin did destroy the Sith. That's all it was.

    No matter what happened, Skywalker becomes Vader? That sounds spooky. What else could have driven Anakin to the darkside, other than Padme? "Oh no no matter what I do I will fall to the darkside"! That sounds terrible.

    No matter what happens, Luke and Leia Skywalker are born? What? Why were Luke and Leia needed to defeat the Galactic Empire/overthrow the Sith? George Lucas said that Darth Vader was redeemed by his children. How did Leia redeem him? That makes no sense. How did Luke redeem him?

    What about Anakin's destiny? Was he predestined to fall to the Darkside? If so, why? Did he have to fall to the Darkside for the Chosen One prophecy to be fullfilled?

    What did Mace Windu mean when he said that Anakin Skywalker was the only one who could destroy the Sith? Wasn't Palpatine an old man who was going to die anyway? He wasn't Voldemort. He wasn't going to live forever. Even if he was, someone could still kill Palpatine. Why only Anakin? Would Palpatine rule the galaxy for all eternity without Anakin?

    Would the galaxy have been better off if Luke and Leia were born or never born/existed/conceived? I always thought they were the reason the Galactic Empire existed and Jedi killed, because Palpatine tells Anakin about he's Darth Sidious who betrayed the Republic and started the Clone Wars, Anakin tells Windu, Windu goes to kill Palpatine, Anakin saves Palpatine because he wants to learn the Darkside from Palpatine to keep Padme alive who is pregnant with Luke and Leia. Had Anakin never saved Palpatine by cutting off Windu's hand, the Galactic Empire never would've have existed.
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 6, 2012
  16. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    I've explained that a little earlier. But to make it brief: Apart from playing his "only I can help you keep Padme alive" card, Palpatine was also making Anakin believe that the Jedi don't trust him and plan to overthrow the Senate.

    That can be seen in almost every scene they have together in ROTS.

    Notice how the argument at the end between Anakin and Obi-Wan went from "you will not take her away from me" to "I can see through the lies of the Jedi" and "from my point of view the Jedi are evil" and "I've brought peace and justice to my new empire".
    This leads me to believe that Anakin wasn't seduced by the Dark Side only because of Padme, but he had plans of his own. He wanted power.

    Remember that scene in AOTC where he's talking to Padme and says "It's all Obi-Wan's fault. He's jealous. He's holding me back!"
    Palpatine in ROTS tells Anakin "Ever since I met you, you've been searching for a life greater than the one of an ordinary Jedi".
    The only reason Vader turned against the Emperor was because he saw Luke, his son, getting killed by the Emperor's lightning. Luke spared his life earlier by refusing to kill him after he cut Vader's hand off. Throughout ROTJ, Luke and Vader share some dialogue, in which Luke does his best to remind Vader of who he really is.
    Learning that Leia was his daughter possibly made Vader more emotional, since at the end he tells Luke "Tell your sister you were right". I guess that Leia was indirectly responsible for Vader's redemption.

    We don't know exactly for how long the Sith can live. Yoda was 900 years old, give or take 50.
    Palpatine specifically said that Plagueis told him everything he knew, so perhaps he altered his life span.
    And even if Palpatine would have eventually died, is anyone willing to wait for that long? He could have conquered the Galaxy 10 times by the time he was dead.

    Palpatine would have activated Order 66 regardless or whether Anakin joined him or not.
    Did he need another apprentice? Well, Dooku is right there, alive and kicking.
    Anakin killed Dooku and prevented him from killing Obi-Wan at the end of AOTC.
    Palpatine's plans don't revolve solely around Anakin's turn to the Dark Side. Anakin's conversion was just something he wanted but not necessary.
    Last edited by the_sinister_hologram, Nov 7, 2012
  17. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    the exchange between darthboba and Tyranus made me LOL

    that said:

    Palpatine didn't need Anakin to start the empire at all
    DarthBoba and SithStarSlayer like this.
  18. Bobatron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    It's just another way of saying "correct". It was in Pulp Fiction.

    AnYwAy...as for the topic, I've always figured there was a lot more to Shmi's situation than just Tusken Raiders choosing to pick her up and take her away. The first thing that came to mind when Anakin mentioned dreaming about her and then seeing her in pain was that it echoed Luke being drawn to Cloud City by the torturing of Han. It's a Sith Dark Side tactic, although the result wasn't quite as specific or definite, but then nothing in the whole mysterious plotting of AOTC is. If the situation was intended to put a strain on Anakin's sensibilities, it is just not quite composed as well and as tightly as it was in TESB.
    No one actually saw the Tusken Raiders take Shmi and they only had footprints to determine what happened. The Tuskens mysteriously had Shmi sheltered and protected in a tent for quite some time; why? I think someone was sent to either kidnap Shmi and or bartered with Tusken Raiders to do it and keep her, and it was intended draw Anakin there.
  19. FunintheSun Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2011
    Just chuckling at the whole thread.


    In the OT, Ben says the sand people are cruel people. In TPM, they are shooting at peoples pods. It doesn't always have to be a mastermind conspiracy. Sometimes unfortunate accidents happen to people with no real explanation. As far as Palpatine forming the Empire, here's my reasoning: he already had the clout and the backing from the Senate. He already knew Grievous was engaged and the end of the war was near. And this was before the Jedi even knew Palpatine was a sith. why couldn't he set up the empire on his own?
  20. the_sinister_hologram Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 2
    Well, technically the Jedi are responsible for Shmi's death. Indirectly, but still responsible.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Qui-Gon mailed her the resources needed to buy herself free, when he got to Coruscant. But it was her choice to do so by giving them to her boyfriend, then marrying him, then going to live with him.
  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Agreed... with my personal favorite being:

    I almost had coffee coming out my nose I laughed soo hard.
    Ep7 already rocks and I don't even know diddly-squat about it.
    ;)
    DarthBoba likes this.
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Ok, Dr. Evil!!
  24. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Well, maybe Mace Windu would kill the Emperor Palpatine when he finds out about Order 66? Or, maybe they could find out that Palpatine was the traitor-to the Republic, without Anakin Skywalker, and kill the Emperor quicker..........

    The Jedi didn't need Anakin Skywalker to be told about the identity of the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Sidious, who betrayed the Galactic Republic and started the Clone Wars..........

    The only reason that Palpatine started Order 66 so fast was because the Jedi tried to kill him............. Suppose Anakin Skywalker never tells Mace Windu about Palpatine's true identity, Palpatine never gets attacked in his office, he isn't that suspicious of the Jedi, then BAM, they kill him and stop Order 66..........

    Anakin Skywalker made Order 66 happen much faster, if anything; remember why the Jedi were killed-to remove a threat to the Emperor Palpatine's political power??????
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not likely. The Jedi wouldn't kill Palpatine unless they knew he was Sith. Even knowing he was Sith, They attempted to arrest rather than kill. Before they knew, they were planning on asking him to surrender his power to the Senate- since he'd been in power way longer than his term limit due to the crisis- and with Grievous and Dooku dead, from the Jedi point of view the crisis is over, peace talks can ensue, and an election can be held.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 17, 2012
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.