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PT Was Qui-Gon given Obi-Wan's Role in TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by enigmaticjedi, Jan 26, 2015.

  1. Master_Lok

    Master_Lok Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2012
    If I go by concept art and such, yes, then Qui-Gon was given more of Obi-Wan's role in TPM. Otherwise, I believe it started out that way and evolved since Lucas made Obi-Wan and Anakin younger.

    < Sigh young Dooku and Yoda ... now there's a book I'd like to read... >
     
  2. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 3, 2003
    This, plus Obi Wan made his decision after the battle of Naboo. Obi Wan knew Anakin was special, he got them off Tatooine, destroyed the Trade Federation ships and had the co sign of Qui Gon and possibly Padme. The scene in ANH reminds me of the Qui Gon funeral scene.
     
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  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Qui-gon's funeral has more in common with Anakin's funeral.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    I think the most telling part of all this is that Yoda, the leader of the Jedi Order, actually said to him, Do NOT train this boy. And yet Obi-Wan did anyway.

    Like, yeah, he made a promise to his dead master. But he made the choice to honor that promise over the strident objections of the wisest Jedi Master who ever lived.
     
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  5. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The Council had basically overruled Yoda on "Anakin mustn't be trained":


    Yoda: Qui-Gon's defiance, I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree with you, the Council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    True, but he's still objecting.

    YODA: "Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Council does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not."

    OBI-WAN: "Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe in Qui-Gon."

    YODA: "The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training."

    OBI-WAN: "Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must."

    He does take it upon himself to train him. Yes, there was a promise, he still goes ahead with it.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The line "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda - I was wrong" made me wonder at the time if Yoda could have trained Anakin, and offered to, but that Ben, being a little proud, had turned down Yoda's offer.

    PT version turned out to be a bit different though.
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011

    Yeah, it turned out a bit different, but there's nothing wrong with that.

    And it's worth keeping in mind that, due to his special circumstances, Anakin did end up skipping the portion of his training that would traditionally have been with Yoda.
     
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  9. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I can appreciate both earlier and final versions of the PT, while it could have meshed more literally with the OT what it ended up as connects more symbolically.

    I love the implication of Qui-Gon watching over Anakin from the netherworld mirroring Obi-Wan and Luke in the OT. Watching the PT first it isn't specifically stated, just Qui-Gon crying "no!" during the Tusken slaughter, and Yoda dropping his name at the end of ROTS. The Yoda dialogue implies Qui-Gon is now his Master and will teach them how to merge with the force (an inversion of the ability the Sith seek, ironically attained by letting go rather than focusing on one's self). Watched in order, when you get to the OT Obi-Wan's death now makes more sense, and is far more obviously presented than the subtler concept of Qui-Gon's death in the prequels. It really feels like a wink to audience; Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda never explicitly stating in the films why they can retain their identity. Furthermore, the first words we hear spoken by Obi-Wan/Qui-Gon from beyond kind of mirror - Luke sees Vader kill Obi-Wan and angrily shoots down some stormtroopers before "Run Luke!", Anakin at the same age witnesses Shmi's death and angrily kills Tuskens, starting down the dark path as Qui-Gon powerlessly shouts out in horror. I think its obvious Luke and Anakin have contrasting destinies, but there is a lot to it that I won't fully go into here.
    One quite complex mirror however - Luke confronts the Vader apparition on Dagobah, the man he thinks killed both his father and Obi-Wan. He beheads him, and (of course) sees his own face. Anakin loses his mother, and kills the village he sees as responsible. Luke has Yoda and Obi-Wan's teachings, and learns from his mistake. Anakin however is alone, the same two mentors unable to help him, only commenting from afar - "Young Skywalker is in pain!" and "Tatooine? What in blazes is he doing there! ... I do hope nothing has happened to him." Anakin never learns what Luke does (until the end of ROTJ) perhaps largely due to circumstance.

    Anyway, others have noted at times that Qui-Gon's absence after TPM is quite meaningful in that it shifts the tone of ep2 and ep3. With his death, the "family" of Qui-Gon, Padme, Obi-Wan, Anakin and Jar Jar are basically split up. This contrast and (arguable) inversion between TPM and the rest of the films makes it almost impossible to get the same meaning you would if Obi found Anakin as originally written. It seems the way the movies are structured Obi-Wan was intentionally written to be not the right mentor for Anakin. Qui-Gon's inclusion means there is symbolically a loss of Anakin's potential when Qui-Gon dies. There are many matches between Qui-Gon, Palpatine, and ANH Obi-Wan. AOTC Obi-Wan; ie Obi-Wan teaching Anakin, is the odd one out. Palpatine in ROTS swoops in and fills a void left by Qui-Gon's absence, and then things come full-circle when Obi-Wan successfully starts Luke on the Jedi path in ANH.

    I will have to continue this tomorrow, I'm out of time.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    To be fair, Lucas wrote that way back when Yoda trained Jedi on Dagobah and Obi-wan had probably decided to train him on his own, without consulting him, or he had turned down the offer due to the anger that he sensed in Anakin.
     
  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    I have some more observations on Qui-Gon's place in the saga that fits here. I've posted a lot of it before in one form or another, but it may be interesting nonetheless.

    Qui-Gon was of course written based off the Obi-Wan of the OT. Less obviously however; he has a lot in common with Palpatine (they mirror each other) as the wise mentors Anakin arguably needed. And while Qui-Gon's character has a lot in common with Obi-Wan's characterisation in the OT (plus Yoda's), he starkly contrasts/inverts Obi-Wan's mentoring of Anakin in the prequels. I'll try and demonstrate why I find the character unique in these ways.


    Firstly, Qui-Gon and OT Obi-Wan.
    There are some interesting similarities between the two that from a real-world perspective are mainly because Qui-Gon was based off Obi-Wan, but in-universe Obi-Wan is now reaching the level of wisdom his old Master believed he would one day have, eg mind-tricks and manipulating the truth is a habit of both.

    Some examples...
    -
    Qui-Gon: "Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident."

    Obi-Wan: "In my experience there is no such thing as luck."


    -
    Qui-Gon: "Even if you succeed, it's a hard life."
    Anakin: "But it's what I want, it's what I've always dreamed of doing!"

    Luke: "I want to come with you to Alderaan. There's nothing here for me now. I wan to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father."


    -
    Anakin's last conversation with Qui-Gon before Qui-Gon is killed:

    Anakin: "Hey, wait for me!"
    Qui-Gon: "No Anakin, stay right where you are."
    Anakin: "But I..."
    Qui-Gon: "Stay in that cockpit!"

    Luke's last conversation with Obi-Wan before Obi-Wan is killed:
    Luke: "I wanna go with you!"
    Obi-Wan: "No Luke, stay and watch over the droids."
    Luke: "But he can..."
    Obi-Wan: They must be delivered safely or more systems will suffer Alderaan's fate... The force will be with you, always."

    Maul kills Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan screams "nooo!"
    Vader kills Obi-Wan, Luke screams "No!"


    -
    Qui-Gon: "I will do what I must, Obi-Wan!"

    Obi-Wan: "Only a Sith deals in absolutes. I shall do what I must!"


    -
    TPM
    Qui-Gon: You still have much to learn my young apprentice."
    ROTS (deleted scene)
    Obi-Wan: "Anakin, you still have much to learn. That will never hold!" ... "Alright, I still have much to learn."


    -
    TPM
    Anakin: "What are we going to do about it?"
    Qui-Gon: "We shall be patient."
    AOTC
    Obi-Wan: "Patience!"
    ROTS
    Anakin: "I say patience."
    Obi-Wan: "Patience?"
    ESB
    Obi-Wan: "He will learn patience."


    -
    Before I move on, there is a Yoda parallel in TPM's opening conversation.
    TPM
    Obi-Wan: "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future!"
    Qui-Gon: "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living force young Padawan."
    ESB
    "This one a long time have I watched. All his life as he looked away... to the future, to the horizon, never his mind on where he was. What he was doing!"

    Kind of a cool nod to fans I think, considering Yoda becomes Qui-Gon's "apprentice" at the end of ROTS.
    Plus, note the wording of Yoda telling Obi-Wan that Qui-Gon has returned from the netherworld...
    "An old friend. Your old Master."
    ESB
    "Through the force, things you will see. The past, the future. Old friends long gone..."

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Qui-Gon inverting PT Obi-Wan.

    TPM
    Qui-Gon (handing Anakin a helmet): "Concentrate on the moment. Feel, don't think. Trust your instincts."

    AOTC, however:
    Obi-Wan: "Patience. Use the force. Think."
    This is such a direct contradiction I don't think it is coincidence.

    Palpatine tells Anakin in AOTC to rely on his feelings, then (Obi-Wan) tells Luke in ANH:
    Obi-Wan (handing Luke the vision-reducing helmet): "This time I want you to let go your conscious self and act on instinct." ... "Stretch out with your feelings!"

    It is interesting that Obi-Wan has grown from teaching Anakin and trains Luke more successfully.


    -
    TPM
    Qui-Gon: "Obi-Wan is ready."
    Obi-Wan: "I am ready to face the trials." ...
    Qui-Gon: "He has much to learn of the living force, but he is capable."
    AOTC
    Obi-Wan: "I am concerned for my Padawan. He is not ready to be given this assignment on his own yet."


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Qui-Gon mirroring Palpatine.


    -
    TPM
    Qui-Gon: "Greed can be a powerful ally."


    Shmi: "He knows nothing of greed."

    Palpatine: "The Senate is full of greedy squabbling delegates."

    ROTS
    Yoda: "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."

    All lines related to how Palpatine manipulates Anakin and the Republic.



    -
    Qui-Gon teaches Anakin about symbiosis with the midichlorians in TPM.
    Palpatine teaches Anakin about selfishly manipulating midis in ROTS.
    Obi-Wan doesn't teach Anakin anything related to this onscreen.


    -
    Qui-Gon: "Always remember. Your focus determines your reality. Stay close to me and you'll be safe."

    Notice directly after Qui-Gon's death, Palpatine swoops in and claims Anakin...
    Palpatine: We are indebted to you for your bravery Obi-Wan. And you, young Skywalker. We will watch your career with great interest!"

    This is a very ironic moment as Obi-Wan has just killed Palpatine's apprentice and begun training Palpatine's eventual one.


    Palpatine mirroring OT Obi-Wan.

    Anakin joins a Sith Master (Sidious) / Luke joins a Jedi Master (Obi-Wan).
    eg, Palpatine: "Your fulfilling your destiny Anakin." / Obi-Wan: "Your destiny lies along a different path from mine."
    eg, Palpatine: "Of course you should, but you're not entirely sure of their intentions." / Obi-Wan: "You must do what you think is right, of course."
    eg, Palpatine: "Become my apprentice. Learn to use the dark side of the force." / Obi-Wan: "Learn about the force, Luke!"
    eg, EDIT: Also, Sidious puts a healing hand on Vader after Obi-Wan dismembers Vader and abandons him / Obi-Wan puts a healing hand on Luke when the tuskens knock him out, the beginning of a second chance at training a Skywalker.



    (I will continue this tomorrow when I get a chance)
     
  12. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    Thanks for the like, @{Quantum/MIDI}
    Thought I would ressurect the thread :)
     
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  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    True like at what point did Obi-Wan draw the line? Would he literally just have done anything because the guy who asked him to do it is dead? He obviously wasn't thinking clearly; was distraught by Qui-Gon's death and his only was of compensating was to become obsessed with his promise.
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    OBI-WAN: "His abilities have made him, well, arrogant."

    YODA: "Yes, yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Hmmm. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones."


    OBI-WAN: "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    It wasn't being distraught, but arrogance that resulted in his going through with his promise.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Obi-Wan made his promise in TPM. None of that dialogue is from the film.:confused:
     
  16. boonjj

    boonjj Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 21, 2016
    What we got sounds much better than those drafts IMO.

    One thing I really like about Qui-gon's presence in TPM is that adds to the scope of the film and enhances world-building.

    For instance it was good to follow an older established Jedi and witness his worldview and what his relationships were like with the Council, especially in contrast to the younger more obedient Obi-Wan. These interactions and their differences conveyed a lot about the characters and institutions.

    Something that tends to hurt worldbuilding is too many coincidences and too few characters, and for this reason I feel it would have been a mistake to make Obi-Wan the main figure of TPM. Especially if he was already like 30y/o because then we wouldn't have seen as much of a transition in his character.

    As someone who watched the Prequels first, I loved how TPM showed us this prequel-within-a-prequel story with Qui-Gon as the main character, then he dies and we jump 10 years ahead and see that life and the galaxy has continued on without him; his Padawan is now a Master; Sith are still planning etc. That's scope; that's making the world feel real and lived-in.

    After I watched the films I noticed a lot of people online seem to prefer this idea that Obi-Wan should have been the lead character in TPM, or even that the Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon characters should have merged into just Obi-Wan. But to me this is the preference of someone who watched the OT first and simply want to see more of a character they are already familiar with. But in doing so the Prequels would have lost some of the things I previously mentioned. IMO.
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The dialogue shows Obi-wan's thought process on the matter. The Jedi Order in its twilight was filled with arrogant Jedi, which included Obi-wan who thought he could do a better job than Yoda.
     
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Obi-Wan's arrogance is implicit. Yoda is telling Obi-Wan not to train Anakin because it's dangerous. Obi-Wan insists on doing it anyway.
     
  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Except none of that dialogue is from the film we're discussing, so it doesn't.
    I guess the rest of the Council, who also disagree with Yoda, are arrogant as well? If disagreeing with Yoda is what deems a Jedi arrogant.
     
  20. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Seriously? Do you not understand...anything? In ROTJ, Obi-wan is reflecting on his decision to train Anakin to Luke and he states that he believed that he could do as good as job as someone with far more experience in this matter. This is what we see in TPM. He trains Anakin because he made a promise and believes that he can do it. In AOTC, Yoda points out that many Jedi in the Order have become arrogant over the years. Not just the younger ones like Anakin, but the older ones as well. In ROTS, he is practically bragging about how well Anakin turned out and it was due to his own training methods.

    Lucas and Kasdan set up in ROTJ, for what was going to come in the PT.

    That's why Yoda says that arrogance was a common flaw among Jedi. The arrogance was in thinking that nothing bad would come from training Anakin and Obi-wan was arrogant for thinking that he could do the job, because of a promise that he made, based on an earlier decision to not train him.
     
  21. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 13, 2011
    This is a little off-topic, but I noticed some time back that everyone involved in the "a flaw more and more common among Jedi" exchange indeed falls victim to their own arrogance in the next film.

    Yoda speaks the line to Obi-Wan and Mace, while discussing Anakin. Then lo and behold...

    Mace - "The oppression of the Sith will never return! You have lost." and "I am going to end this, once and for all!" - is then killed by Anakin and Palpatine.

    Yoda - "At an end your rule is! And not short enough it was." - Later upon defeat: "Into exile I must go. Failed I have."

    Obi-Wan - "I will train Anakin, without the approval of the Council if I must." - "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Anakin - "Love won't save you Padme, only my new powers can do that!" - "It seems in your anger, you killed her."
    Anakin brings it on himself to single-handedly save Padme's life through the dark side and bring peace to the galaxy but only brings himself misery.

    I just think it is very poetic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
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  22. Jo Lucas

    Jo Lucas Jedi Knight star 4

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    Aug 28, 2015
    Yes, Obi's role was give to Qui-gon Jinn. Lucas probably felt that Obi-wan was too lonely during the whole opening sequence. The character needed someone to talk to, a sidekick.
     
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  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    This has nothing to do with Obi-Wan's promise. It's a random line from another film years later.
    Right. Anyone who disagrees with your convoluted theories "doesn't understand anything." Or, hear me out here...maybe they just think differently than you. I know it's crazy eh??

    When does he brag? Or is this just in your fanfic?

    Says you. No one in the film says "nothing bad" would come from training Anakin. In his training is regarded as controversial and dangerous.

    "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."
     
  24. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    It's more than that. He needed someone who could be a father figure for Anakin, a wise patriarch, an exemplar of Jedi philosophy--someone much like Old Ben in A New Hope. But Obi-Wan himself couldn't be that figure yet, or else he would have no room to grow over the trilogy. Lucas wanted to explore Obi-Wan as a young man, immature and arrogant in turns just like Luke will one day be, someone who has not yet developed into the person he will be in the OT. In order to do that he had to give Qui-Gon the role originally assigned to Obi-Wan.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Yes, it does. Obi-wan told Luke that he thought that he could do as good a job as Yoda. That's arrogance. Yoda points out that the Jedi were becoming more and more arrogant. Obi-wan is a Jedi and he was arrogant enough to think that he could do a better job than someone who was training Jedi for eight hundred years.

    It's not a convoluted theory. It is a fact presented within the films and was first set up in 1981, following the story meetings. When I ask if you understand, I'm referring to the idea of story connections. That what is established in one film, connects to other films.

    OBI-WAN: "You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be."

    That's bragging.

    I never said that they said, "Nothing bad". I said that the Council decided that they would train the boy and didn't believe that he could become a threat, or at least ignored that. Yoda is the only one who still believes that. Obi-wan, who said that the Council believed that the boy was dangerous, now no longer thinks that way.