Was Quinlan Vos Dooku's Sith apprentice?

We know George Lucas had Obi Wan Kenobi as the person Dooku had marked to become his fellow apprentice to destroy the Sith. I'm curious though, with as much attention paid to Master Vos did Count Dooku intend to use him to overthrow Darth Sidious if he couldn't use Obi Wan.

I can't imagine ever took Ventress seriously.

 

No indication of that, or even that Dooku had plans for offing Palpatine. He wasn't very ambitious for a Sith, and seemingly was content to be Palpatine's right hand man and head of the "Sith Army" once the Empire came into being.

Afterwards, maybe he would've entertained notions of killing his master, but prior to his death there's nothing to indicate this.

(Disclaimer: I have not read YR, so there may well be something on this in that book)

 

Dooku, I think, was a very atypically cooperative Sith Lord, probably a remnant of a lifetime with the Order. I think if he was to try and take out Sidious, it would be with his own "posse" of sorts. There seems to be a hierarchy of sorts among his acolytes, with the lower ones competing among themselves and the higher ones above that sort of thing. I'm thinking in specific Sora Bulq, and from a certain point of view, Grievous. All of Dooku's candidates are imperfect and, lets be honest, Quinlan has almost as many problems as Asajj in his own way. Sidious wanted Quinlan turned, but turning Quinlan into a loose cannon pointed in the direction of "the second Sith Lord" was probably Dooku's idea.

Dooku seems to like to teach. We see this with Sora, and Quinlan, and even Asajj. Again, probably a remnant of training padawans as a Jedi. The way he draws fights out while making commentary also may have something to do with this, especially since we've seen him turn it on and punk people he's been fighting almost immediately when he gets bored (the Sora/Tholme duel is a gorgeous example - "I will accept your surrender now")

It's clear Dooku has different 'cells' of followers, with himself being almost the only connecting factor. Asajj and Grievous (and Durge?) are in one, and know about Sidious. Sora, Quinlan, et. al. are in another, and don't. The ex-Jedi and the Jedi-killers rarely seem to mix, probably for the obvious reason. I'm sure there's others, as he has several minions who don't show up in either.

The characterization inconsistancy with Dooku doesn't help with any of this, of course. And it's debatable how sane he was.

Edit: Dooku seems to actively recruit Jedi Masters, also.

 

Dooku's characterization is not as off as people think it is.

Dooku was pretty much from the beginning an arrogant, elistist, snob. Dooku was hardly a sociopath but its entirely possible from my mind that he adopted the airs of the high-human culture developing and while not OFFENSIVE towards aliens believed in aristocratic royalty ideals (he being a count and this being a secret longing of his) with the substitution of the Force versus noble bloodlines.

Certainly, these inclinations were dormant while he was a Jedi likely but I imagine became full blown obsessions for him when he became Dark Lord of the Sith.

Anything that contributed to Dooku's Ego was probably accepted by him from the fact he was the Chosen One to the Potenium to so on...

 

Dooku may see Vos a something of a kindred spirit as well. Both of the have noble backrounds(Clan Vos rules the Kiffar people, so I quess you can say Quins royalty and Dooku's a count). Plus they both have a connection to Qui-Gon as Quinlan apparently trained alongside Obi-wan with Qui gon at somepoint, probably when Tholme was on solo missions or something.( evidence, Stark Hyperspace war time period, the fact that Quinlan's saber shares many characteristics with Qui Gons design and with obiwans pre ROTS saber.)

 

There's a couple consistent obsessions with Dooku. One is his extreme reaction to betrayal, one is his screaming inferiority complex in regards to Yoda and need to prove himself there. Dark Rendezvous adds family issues on top of the betrayal thing. I suspect any High Human tendancies were mostly cultivated by having to work with Nute Gunray and the rest of the Sep council without strangling them. (though he seems to like Poggle).

The Chosen One thing doesn't seem that well sourced to me (and what does that imply about his intentions regarding the Sith if he did believe?) The Potentium-like thing is sourced, but also contradicted by his dualistic attitudes in many sources, most notably Republic, but also Dark Rendezvous. As someone who discussed philosophy with Yoda and Mace on a regular basis and was part of the "Old Guard", I doubt he advocated the Potentium publicly. Wasn't that breed of 'heretics' purged at some point from the Order?

I see a fully turned Quinlan as one of the major figures of a new Sith Order in an intelligence capacity, but not an "apprentice". Aside from Kenobi, if Dooku had somehow won I'm not sure he would have accepted an apprentice, period. He doesn't have the dedication of a Sith-from-birth in the continuation of the Sith, and he doesn't seem to be emotionally invested in the Jedi's destruction at the level of Sidious and Maul.

I'm curious about whether Dooku knew Khaleen was pregnant, and whether that would have affected his turning strategy.

That's an interesting point on the nobility, though characterwise they're quite different. Sora Bulq is also from an influential Weequay clan. I don't think Kenobi is any sort of nobility, though, and he's the one Dooku really wants.

 

I belive its stated somewhere that Kenobi was from a very well-to-do family. And lets face it, everything about kenobi's manner screams class, etiquette and nobility. He was just Dooku's type, more so than Vos or Sora.

 

Yeah, but (except Quin) all these kids were brought up in the Order, so their traits are more a reflection of their personality than their birth status.

 

Asajj Ventress, Sola Bulq and a number of other Dark Jedi were all his allies and servents during the Clone Wars. Quinlan Vos was well respected by Dooku, but he wanted Obi-wan under his guard. The Dark Jedi served various roles for him, as part of the master plan of Darth Sidious. Ventress did have potential, but she lacked that which Dooku sought in Obi-wan. Vos was close, but the connection to Qui-gon is what puts Obi-wan at the top. When Palpatine makes it clear that it is Anakin who will join them, Dooku reluctently lets go of trying to turn Obi-wan. By then, Vos is back to being a Jedi and the others are dead or missing.

 

I think dooku has a lot of respect for obi-wan, in a wierd sort of way.

 

Weirdly, I think Dooku sees in Obi Wan the apprentice he WANTED Qui Gon to be.

 

Just out of curiosity Charlemagne, why do you think that?

IMHO I would have pegged ObiWan as too "straight-edge" about following the Order to appeal to Dooku, whereas QuiGon was more of a maverick like Dooku.

I'd never really thought of the reverse, but it's an interesting thought...

 

Dooku and Qui Gon were opposite ends of the spectrum. Dooku wished the 'reform' the Jedi Order but his idea of reformation was essentially the same as Master C'Boaths, take over the Republic and dictate to the masses belowTM.

Qui Gon had an affection for the weak, small, puny.

Dooku I imagine misjudged Obi wan to find someone whom was willing to defy the Council but also a considerably more straight arrow and a "big picture" man. In other words, he saw himself in Obi Wan.

Which ironically shows he severely misjudged his apprentice's apprentice.

 

I'm curious though, with as much attention paid to Master Vos did Count Dooku intend to use him to overthrow Darth Sidious if he couldn't use Obi Wan.

I can't imagine ever took Ventress seriously.

He never took any of them seriously, save for Kenobi. Like others already noted, Dooku seemed to take a pleasure in training others. This can be seen in his categorization of the galaxy-- it's as if he enjoyed taking Threats and turning them into Assets to serve his purpose. Eventually he was simply going to crush his Threats with the collective Asset that would be his Sith Army.

Labyrinth of Evil pretty well spells this out-- Dooku reminisces about training Grievous, and shows a bit of disdain for "his so-called Dark Jedi disciples", as well as noting that he still held secrets from Grievous. He simply saw himself and Sidious as the grand architects of the Empire and this Sith Army. In fact, at the end of that chapter in LoE, Dooku briefly ponders the possibility of overthrowing Sidious, but quickly dismisses the idea. He sees Sidious as his partner, as much as Sidious sees Dooku as his pawn.

When it came to Kenobi, though...Dooku was trying to convince Sidious to replace Skywalker with him right up until they both arrived at the General's Quarters on the Invisible Hand. Of course, in his smug loyalty, Dooku is eventually swayed by Sids to agree that Kenobi's death will mean victory and Skywalker's transformation will mean the beginning of their Sith Army (Anaking being "the perfect commanding general").

 

The book for ROTS pretty much says Dooku wanted to be captured by Anakin, held for the remainder of the war, and after fixing the corrupt government, retiring to his estate. So I don't know if he really would train a bunch of henchmen and try to run the show afterwards.

 

Hm.

I don't think Dooku was that much like C'Baoth in his views. His thing seemed to be the divorce of the Jedi Order from the corrupt politics of the Republic, not a theocracy. Admittedly, a set-up where the Jedi (or Sith, when he was Sith) could interfere at will with the Republic/Empire and fix things, but not a C'Baoth like set-up where the Jedi become government/legal system/etc. like C'Baoth seems to think is best. Dooku's thinking bigger than C'Baoth, who wants a smaller-scale theocracy where everyone ultimately answers to him personally. You can't run a galaxy-wide bureaucracy on even 10,000 Jedi/Sith.

I think Qui-Gon and Dooku were a lot more alike than people realize. The comparison of them in the Lost 20 scene shows the mainstream Jedi view. They may have had their differences, but it was probably because they were alike in their independence that they had their differences.

Most sources indicate that Dooku was attached in his own way to Qui-Gon's memory. It's cited in his fall once or twice, I'm almost sure. And witness the way he and Quinlan use Qui-Gon's name as a weapon against each other in Red Hands. Perhaps it was a silent watch (similar to Willy Wonka's dad in Chocolate Factory ), letting Qui-Gon go his own way. But if he's telling the truth in AOTC, he and Qui-Gon spoke of Obi-Wan. I wonder if Qui-Gon approached his scholar master when doing research into the Way of the Whills? And of course, they were both Living Force Jedi.

 

Dooku's opinions in RotS show that perhaps his opinion of the "Living Force" was less deep than people think.

 

Indeed, characterization is inconsistent

 

The book for ROTS pretty much says Dooku wanted to be captured by Anakin, held for the remainder of the war, and after fixing the corrupt government, retiring to his estate. So I don't know if he really would train a bunch of henchmen and try to run the show afterwards.

Well...no. Dooku already retired to his estate on Serenno, and used his considerable wealth in doing so to turn himself into the "icon" of the Separatist movement. Dooku also notes (and has noted consistently in the past, starting with his encounter in AotC) that he'd rather kill Skywalker and turn Kenobi, until Sidious convinces him otherwise-- at which point Dooku secedes the point and agrees that Kenobi's death will be the end of the Republic, and Skywalker's turn the beginning of the Sith Army of the New Empire.

I would take this opportunity to post an excerpt or two to show you the source, but it'd be a lot easier if you just re-read Chapter 2 of the RotS Novelization-- specifically the "This is Count Dooku" part and the discussion with Sidious at the end of the chapter.

 

He might concede the point, but I doubt he withdraws from it.

 

Is it just me, or are Dooku & Obi-Wan highly reminiscent of Saruman & Gandalf?

-In LOTR, Saruman wants to turn Gandalf to his side. Ditto with Dooku & Obi-Wan in AOTC and through the clone wars; Saruman also has a desire for Gandalf to join him as late as the end of TTT.

-Gandalf is our 'model image' wizard; Obi-Wan is our 'model image' Jedi. Dooku is the exact opposite of Obi-Wan, just as Saruman is the exact opposite of Gandalf.

If anything, I'd say Obi-Wan is what Dooku should've been-one of the greatest heroes of the Republic in the clone wars.

 

LOTR comparisons are just begging for my input, but I'll saving throw the temptation this time. I must.

I have.

Can I ask, what did cause Dooku's defection? Idiocy like the Galidraan debacle? He told Fett it was one of his last missions for the council. But there had to be more to it.

 

Intriuging. I'll have to mediate on this. Thanks,

 

Galidraan was his last field mission for the Jedi, IIRC. I'm guessing he just got tired of seeing the Jedi geting dragged into silly crap like trade disputes.