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PT Was Shmi's death part of Palpatine's scheme?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, May 15, 2016.

  1. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    It was never made clear, but her death was a VERY important piece of Anakin's downfall. Without the dream and what happened to her, Anakin would not have been in great panic in EP III when he had the dream of Padme. I doubt he would seek the power of the Dark Side to save Padme simply because of the dream either. Since Palpatine had started to manipulate the Chosen one from EP I, it's hard to believe he was not involved in Shmi's death.
     
  2. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    in my head canon....no.

    I like to think some things happen in Star Wars without Palpatine being behind it all.

    For example that slight breeze on Naboo...no it wasn't Palpatine farting.
     
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  3. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    But this was a very important piece of Anakin's downfall, without it Anakin would not have asked Palpatine for power simply because of a dream in EP III.
     
  4. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    the force showed Anakin visions, Palpatine (like he always did) used it to his advantage, there are many instances in the films where he does this.

    Lucas also correctly states that corrupt politicians did this in the course of history to gain power. Hitler did it, Julius Caesar did it.

    Palpatine is more of an Iago character from Shakespeare more than he is a Skeletor/Mum-Ra one.
     
  5. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    If we take a look at his politician life, he planned the crisis of Naboo to take out Valorum and become Chancellor. He started out the Clone Wars to gain power. All these important events/wars were caused by his manipulation, he didn't just wait there for something to happen. It's hard to believe he would just wait there rather than start his manipulation right way.
     
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  6. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    well yes he started the ball rolling with said political events you mention, everything after that fell into place.

    For Palpatine to be somehow involved in Shmi's death he would have had to have planted force visions to Anakin....while somehow being in cahoots with the Tuskens and guarantee Cliegg to tell Anakin that Tusken's took his mother, then for Anakin to actually FIND his mother and then for Anakin to react the way he did.

    Palpatine is powerful but he isn't god.
     
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  7. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    He just needed to let the Sand People capture Shmi and torture her to death when Anakin went to visit his mother, it's not really hard. We know Anakin, he would do everything to find his mother if she was in danger and surely would go rampage when he found her, barely alive or not.
     
  8. Dandelo

    Dandelo SW and Film Music Interview Host star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Aug 25, 2014
    ok, I will just say what I said earlier then

    in my head canon...no :p

    some events just happen without Palpatine IMO, but if it makes the story better for you to think Palps was involved, great :D but for me it makes it a bit more generic and uggh.
     
  9. Valiowk

    Valiowk Chosen One star 6

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    Apr 23, 2000
    From what I remember of previous discussions on this topic, those who argue in the negative usually bring up the following points: 1) the audience does not see any indication in the films that the Sith have the ability to let others have visions, and if they do, it brings up a can of worms in the form of whether they could have used this ability on other people to let the situations they desire occur more easily; 2) they believe that Palpatine uses existing situations to his advantage instead of planning out every situation in full; 3) part of Star Wars is about how ordinary events can lead to tragedy. On the other hand, those who argue in the positive argue as you do, that it was an event that went on to play an important role in Sith, that the way Palpatine is able to pinpoint accurately what is bothering Anakin in Sith leads one to wonder whether he had a role in Anakin's visions at that time, and if so, if he also had a role in Anakin's vision at the time of Shmi's death.

    The way I personally see things is that either the Force or Palpatine is responsible for Anakin's visions, and I am not sure that the former option is easier to accept than the latter, because in the former case the Force is doing some heavy work...
     
  10. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 19, 2016
    I think it was more of a lucky inevitability for him. I don't think he was directly involved in her abduction or torture but he knew that it was natural that at some point or another, a mom is likely not to outlive her son in most cultures, and especially in such a harsh environment as Tatooine. He would have waited if he needed, but he was fortunate that the kidnapping took place and allowed it to be far simpler for him.
     
  11. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Jedi Master star 5

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    Sep 21, 2012
    But he needed to sway Anakin to his side by the end of the Clone Wars, which means 3 years later. Shmi was like in her 50s, she could have lived well naturally.
     
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  12. Falcon

    Falcon Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 7, 2002
    It's not uncommon for Raiders to kidnap when the opportunity arises. They use them as slaves until they die.

    Palpatine was never involved with this, but it did play a major key in Anakin's downfall after he slaughtered every single Raider in the camp.

    It made him a cold blooded killer in that instance and in Clone Wars, it started to become more serious as he killed a senator who was threatening to blow up the ship with everyone on it. He almost killed Padme's ex in front of her but she stopped Anakin before he could get that far.

    He was at this point in time becoming a cold blooded killer.
     
  13. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right. Palpatine already had a plan to turn Anakin, which was get him to kill Dooku and create tension against the Jedi. Shmi's death was fortuitous.
     
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  14. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    The movies really don't show anything that would suggest Palpatine had anything to do with Shmi getting captured by the Tusken Raiders. However if he did, the only thing Palpatine would have needed to do was get Shmi captured. The force and Anakin's connection to Shmi would cause the visions and nightmare.

    Darth Vader knew that by capturing and torturing Han, Leia, Chewie, and C-3PO, it would draw Luke to him.

    It's also interesting that Palpatine mentions the Tusken Raider slaughter in Revenge of the Sith. While this in way means Palpatine had anything to do with it. It does show that he is aware of it and using it to influence Anakin later.
     
  15. Darth Tropius

    Darth Tropius Jedi Youngling

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    May 16, 2016
    I don't think Palpatine had anything to do with Shmi's death, but it definitely served his purposes well. Besides, Palpatine rarely showed interest for Tattoine, obviously considering it a desolate and primitive planet. From what I see it, he did perhaps plan for Shmi's demise further down the road, but not at the moment it happened. However, he was still one pleased Sith when he found out the news!
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    It's hard to believe that he was. Just because he showed interest in Anakin at the end of TPM doesn't mean he had a hand in everything that happened after. It wasn't Palpatine who created Anakin's problem with attachment. He simply exploited it.
     
  17. Lulu Mars

    Lulu Mars Chosen One star 5

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    Mar 10, 2005
    Wasn't Dooku at one point meant to claim responsibility for Shmi's kidnapping in order to make Anakin angry?
     
  18. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

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    Jun 22, 2006
    Yes, I thought Palpatine not having anything to do with Anakin's first real brush with the Dark Side WAS the point. That ultimately, Anakin fell, he wasn't pushed.
     
  19. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Well, he was pushed to fall deeper. But yes, he already had a problem.
     
  20. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 30, 2015
    It always bothered me when people refer to Anakin's perfectly normal and human emotions as "problem". He is taken from his mother, his only family, at age 9, and feels sad about it, the same way 99% of human beings would feel. The Jedi forbid any sort of attachment, that is their ideology only, not ours. I doubt that Lucas intended for the viewer to identify with an ideology that is basically cruel and inhumane. I can identify a lot more with Anakin, even when he kills the Tusken, than what the Jedi preach. The Jedi were not meant to be wise and perfect, but flawed. Their trying to deny normal emotions is part of what is wrong with them. Anakin says "it's all Obi-Wan's fault", which I partly agree with. What he really meant was it's the Jedi's fault, which it really is. To take a young kid away from his mother, more or less against his will, would be considered cruel in our civilization. Are we supposed to accept it as normal in the SW universe? I refuse to do that, and I don't think Lucas wanted us to accept it either. Part of Anakin's tragedy is that it's not greed or hunger for power that made him evil, but his masters denying him the right to be human. For the Jedi order it might make sense to view attachment or love as a "problem", for us viewers it does not. What is more surprising is that there is no known protest against the Jedi rules, or that there are not more Jedi who rebel against them and leave the order. It takes a lot of self-discipline to sacrifice anything you normally feel to an order that doesn't really give you much in return. If I were Anakin I probably would have turned against the Jedi a lot sooner.;)
    And yes, I can even relate to his "from my point of view the Jedi are evil". Sure Palpatine used him, but in a way so did the Jedi, only they are the ones who are supposed to be the good guys.
     
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  21. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

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    Jul 7, 2009
    "Perfectly normal and humans emotions" can be a problem. Specially when acted upon.

    And no, the Jedi didn't use him. Nor was Anakin taken against his will. Perhaps you should rewatch the movies before blaming certain characters of things that didn't happen.
     
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  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    There's a difference between having emotions and learning to control them. Anakin couldn't do that.

    He wasn't taken. Qui-gon freed him and said that he could become a Jedi, if that was what he really wanted. Shmi told him it was his choice to make. He made it willingly.

    ANAKIN: "But it’s what I want. What I’ve always dreamed about. Can I go, Mom?!"

    SHMI: "Anakin, this path has been placed for you. The choice is yours alone."

    ANAKIN: "I want to go."

    QUI-GON: "Then, pack your things. We haven’t much time."

    And being sad wasn't a problem. It was being afraid that something would happen to her and living in that fear for his whole life.

    They don't forbid relationships so long as one does not become attached as Anakin did. Nor start a family. Anakin knew this going in.

    Actually, he does. He advocates not living in fear. Not giving into anger and hate. He advocates against being jealous, greedy, selfish and self-centered. These things for a relationship is not a good thing and for a Jedi it leads to the dark side.

    You advocate killing women and children?

    It's normal to want to be angry and hateful? It's normal to live in fear? It's normal to want others to suffer?

    It's Obi-wan's fault? Really? It's his fault that Anakin couldn't control himself and killed the Tuskens like he did? It's his fault that he became lazy and arrogant in his training? It's his fault that Anakin became too attached to his mother? And again, where was he taken against his will? He left voluntarily. There was no coercion. Qui-gon didn't use his Lightsaber to take him from Shmi.

    Actually, he does.

    "I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding—a “bigger picture” understanding—of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

    Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells.

    If you put that notion on a larger scale, you have to understand that it's a very cooperative world, not only with the environment, with but our fellow human beings. If you do not cooperate, if you do not work together to keep the entire organism going, the whole thing dies, and everybody dies with it. That's a law of nature, and it's existed forever. We're one of the very few creatures that has a choice, and can intellectualize the process.

    Most organisms either adapt and become part of the system, or get wiped out. The only thing we have to adapt to the system with is our brain. If we don't use it, and we don't adapt fast enough, we won't survive."

    --George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999.


    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.

    "The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

    --George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 1999

    "If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is gray. In each of us we to have balance these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this."

    --George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

    Again, it's that he is greedy and hungry for power.


    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people- in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213.


    "The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

    "When you get down to where we are right now in the story, you basically get somebody who’s going to make a pact with the Devil, and it’s going to be a pact with the Devil that says, 'I want the power to save somebody from death. I want to be able to stop them from going to the river Styx, and I need to go to a god for that, but the gods won’t do it, so I’m going to go down to Hades and get the Dark Lord to allow me to have this power that will allow me to save the very person I want to hang on to.' You know, it’s Faust. So Anakin wants that power, and that is basically a bad thing. If you’re going to sell your soul to save somebody you love, that’s not a good thing. That’s as we say in the film, unnatural. You have to accept that natural course of life. Of all things. Death is obviously the biggest of them all. Not only death for yourself but death for the things you care about."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the Dark Side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    The Jedi don't discourage love, as they encourage it. Per what Anakin said and what Obi-wan said.

    ANAKIN: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love... is central to a Jedi's life. So you might say that we are encouraged to love."


    OBI-WAN: "Anakin, I understand to a degree what is going on. You've met Satine. You know I once harbored feelings for her. It's not that we're not allowed to have these feelings. It's natural."


    Love is defined as compassion. Selfless. What Anakin was doing was selfish. He was trying to have his cake and eat it too. He was selfish for putting his needs ahead of Padme's, much less the needs of the Republic.

    That's why only twenty ever left. Most of the Jedi understood what was asked of them. In Anakin's case, he was too emotionally invested and had a Sith Lord gumming up the works.


    The Jedi didn't use him. They asked him to do his duty, which he did perform.
     
  23. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Apr 3, 2002
    ^That's good stuff.

    As far as Palpatine goes he does apparently have a nice ability to view the possibilities of the future. He may have seen way ahead of time Anakin meeting the right people to tell him his mother was taken and made sure to be a part of that timeline by sending Anakin off to Tatooine with Padme.
     
  24. Darkslayer

    Darkslayer #1 Sabine Wren Fan star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2013
    I don't think Sidious would have orchestrated that - after all he was very preoccupied with running the Republic, secretly running the Separatists, weakening the Jedi, and befriending Anakin.

    Has George said anything definitive on this? I just don't think we have enough evidence to say that Sidious planned this too.
     
  25. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 30, 2015
    No need, I know the movies and characters well enough. I just happen to disagree with some of the characters' views, as I disagree with some real-life religions or ideologies. I'm a PT fan but it is still allowed to disagree with some of its concepts, is it not? "Blame" is too strong a word for fictional characters. But some of those Jedi rules have a part in Anakin turning out the way he does. That is my opinion, I never said it is absolute truth. It's my own interpretation of what I see on the screen. I interpret things differently from you, that happens. It doesn't make me wrong or less of a fan.