PT Was Shmi's death part of Palpatine's scheme?

Not really. In TPM he's a good kid, in AOTC he's deeply flawed, but still not an out-and-out bad guy - he only becomes an out-and-out bad guy in ROTS by which time Shmi is already dead.

 

He’s pretty much an out-and-out bad guy in ATTACK OF THE CLONES as well. That’s kinda the point I’ve been making.

 

We've all noticed, don't worry.

 

The difference is that Anakin and Obi-wan were brothers up until Anakin betrayed everything that he believed in, which was taught to him by Obi-wan. That's what happens with the death of Mace Windu. Scar never cared for his family the way Anakin cared for Obi-wan. And Anakin and Obi-wan aren't constantly at each others throats. That only happens when they fight on Mustafar.

He doesn't lose his temper. Obi-wan yells at Anakin to be heard and makes a valid point that Anakin hadn't considered.

It paints the picture of what Obi-wan is saying.

I'm sure that walking around the Death Star with a giant Wookiee and a golden protocol droid that won't shut up, was also brilliant. But the point still remains, Qui-gon had patience and so did Obi-wan.

In AOTC, Anakin reacted emotionally without much thought. In ROTS, he makes a decision emotionally and then realizes that he has no choice but to go through with it. That's why he says, "What have I done?" He didn't want this, but he was forced into it. Now he has to go through with it, because the Jedi will kill him for his betrayal. He cannot just kill Palpatine, since he still needs his help and he cannot pass Mace's death off as being entirely Palpatine's fault for the same reasons. The only solution was to pledge himself to Palpatine and carry out his will. He has put his needs ahead of everyone else and is now following through on it.

"I have what I call two sharp "right turns" in the movie and they are very hard to deal with. For the audience, it's a real jerk, because you're going along and then somebody yanks you in a different direction. Anakin turning to the dark side and killing Mace is a very hard right, because we're dealing with things that aren't so obvious. The audience knows Anakin is going to turn to the dark side, but the things that he's struggling with are so subtle that it may be hard for people to understand why his obsession to hold onto Padme is so strong.

Showing how much Anakin and Padme care for each other is one of my weak points. Expressing that is hard to do. It's really hard in the end to express the idea, I'm so in love with you that I would do anything to save you; I'd give up everything -friends, my whole life- for you, and make that real-make that stick-and say it in two minutes. When I created it I knew I wanted two hard right turns-it's designed to be that way-and I knew I was taking a real chance that it wasn't going to work. But you have to see if you can make it work. If it doesn't work, well then I'm going to get skewered for it. But if I can make it work, it'll be neat. It'll be good."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

Anakin did change for the better by the time ROTS began, but then he saw Padme's death and all of his fears and anxieties from before return. His promise that he made to himself in front of his mother's grave became top priority to him and when he got down to it, he reacted out of fear and that fear is why he pledges himself to Palpatine. The fear of death and the fear of being alone.

No, he's still a good man despite what he did. It is only when he chooses to be evil, that he becomes evil.

 

Hey I was going to make a new thread on this and then I saw this thread. I’ll post my own opinion first and then read through the previous comments.

I believe Sidious arranged Shmi’s death. Her death is suspicious to me for three reasons:
1. She was imprisoned for a month.
2. She was imprisoned for a month (yes this one month thing is suspicious for two reasons).
3. Anakin had dreams about it.

1. Why would the Sand people capture and imprison her there for that long? It accomplishes nothing.
In ANH, the way they treat Luke is totally different. They hit him a couple times until he’s unconscious. They don’t care if he’s dead or injured, they just need him out of the way so they can go to his ship and look for valuables. They don’t care about the person; all they care about is looking for items that can be useful to them. But with Shmi, it doesn’t seem like they demanded ransom or anything. They just kept her there and beat her, and presumably had to give her food and water to keep her alive for that long.
Furthermore, Cliegg said he sent 30 people to save her, and only 4 returned. What happened to the other 26 people? After Shmi died, Anakin killed everyone there. He didn’t save anyone, meaning there were no other prisoners. So the other 26 people were likely all killed on the spot, only Shmi was held captive.
It appears that the Sand people have no motive to do what they did. Unless someone paid them to do it.

2. After being imprisoned there for a whole month, what are the chances that Anakin arrives just in time to see her die? If she died like a week earlier, they probably would’ve gotten rid of the corpse. Anakin would still be in agony over her death, but to see the pain and death with his own eyes is much more traumatizing. Or if she wasn’t fatally injured yet at the time Anakin arrived, then he’d actually be able to save her.
Now if Sidious had been spying on Anakin on Naboo and Tatooine (he could use a combination of Force-spying, people spies, and probe droids), he would have a rough idea of when Anakin would arrive. Perhaps Shmi only got light beatings previously, but just before Anakin got there, Sidious told the Sand people to beat her harder. It’s still a bit of a coincidence that she dies minutes after Anakin arrives, but even if she died a couple hours earlier and Anakin arrived to see her battered corpse, the effect would be similar.

3. Yes we’ve learned that the Force allows people to see into the future. But does it normally work through dreams? In ESB when Luke was seeing the future, Yoda instructed him to concentrate and feel the Force flow, not do it in his sleep. At the beginning of AOTC when Anakin tells Obi Wan about the dreams, Obi Wan didn’t think it meant anything, and just said, “Dreams pass in time.” In fact, Jedi aren’t even supposed to have nightmares in the first place. When Padme observed his troubles, Anakin stated, “Jedi don’t have nightmares.”
If Sidious used his Force powers to give Anakin the dreams, then it could explain this. Sidious might have also been controlling the exact content of the dreams. It seems like the dreams weren’t that bad when Anakin was still on Coruscant. His words were: “I don’t sleep well anymore,” “I don’t know why I keep dreaming about her,” and “I’d much rather dream about Padme.” The dreams give him an inexplicable sense of uneasiness, but they aren’t outright nightmares, or else he wouldn’t wish those dreams on anyone. But on Naboo, his description turns into “She is suffering, Padme. I see her as clearly as I see you now. She is in pain.” My guess is that because Anakin wasn’t under the direct supervision of Obi Wan, Sidious chose that time to intensify the dreams so that Anakin would go to Tatooine and try to save his mother.

 

@lord_sidious_

Interesting idea, I have commented before that the Sand People would have to give Shmi water and most likely food in order for her to survive that long.
Given the planet, water is VERY precious for the Sand People and why waste it on someone that they are planning to torture to death?
My thought was that Shmi was used a slave labor and they beat her when she tried to escape or didn't work hard enough.
This is very nasty as well but keeping a person alive for a month and wasting precious resources on that person just to torture.
That is both very nasty and also senseless.

But that Sidious did this, then you also need that he somehow contacted that tribe and managed to get them to do what he wanted.
And he would have to know where Shmi lived and what tribe was close to her.
I don't know, it makes him a little too "all-knowing" for my taste.
No doubt this helped Sidious, it put Anakin down a very dark path and made him make a dangerous promise not to let anyone else he cared about die like this.
But that he was behind all of this?
Not sure.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Of course there's also the possibility of Shmi being abducted for carnal purposes, like in The Searchers. Which doesn't rule out Palpatine orchestrating her capture.

 

I don't like the idea of one person being responsible for all the bad that happens in someone's life, that lets other factors too off the hook and makes the universe seem too small and controlled.

 

I do think Annakin was disillusioned - starting with Ahsoka leaving the Jedi. His loses his Mom, Padme and Ahsoka.

 

Uh, no. Cliegg and Owen went out with twenty eight other men to rescue Shmi, but they fell into a Tusken trap and took heavy casualties. Cliegg himself lost his leg during the attack. They and two others were the only survivors. As to a ransom, it wasn't about a ransom. It was just the principle of the fact that she was an outsider who they came across, because they were moving closer to the farm land areas and the last vaporator that Shmi went to pick mushrooms from, was where they had found her at. As to Luke, we don't know what all was going to happen to him. They might have taken him back to their camp to torture, but Obi-wan's arrival prevented that. Also, note that Luke and Obi-wan both state that the Tuskens are very dangerous and are not to be trifled with.

She dies after Anakin gets there because she's no longer holding out hope for his rescue. She was kept alive by her own will and now that she saw him, she could let go.

Yes, because in TESB, there was a scene cut out where Luke is still seeing Han and Leia being tortured by Vader. Luke awakens from a nightmare and tells Yoda that he's still seeing their suffering. And as we saw in ROTS, Anakin has nightmare visions of Padme's death. As to Obi-wan, he doesn't know that they're visions. Neither does Anakin. He thinks that they're dreams and not visions of the future. And as to Anakin talking about nightmares, he's not being literal. He's covering up what's going on and Padme calls him out on it.

 

I think you're right.

I live in an area that was frontier territory until the later 1700s. I’ve read first hand accounts of native raiding parties abducting farmers. It really does mirror how Shmi was captured in Attack of the Clones.

Most people were captured so they could be traded later for guns, other supplies, or peace. It took precious resources and time to care for prisoners, but could pay off. Since hostages were sort of a commodity, they weren’t harmed. But if the hostages couldn't be traded or brought too big a threat of reprisal they'd be killed. (but not tortured. That was more for wartime where the enemy would know about it as a fear tactic.)

My guess is Shmi was originally taken for slave labor or as a hostage to be traded.

We know that Cleigg Lars lost his leg trying to rescue Shmi and of the 30 farmers who went, only 4 returned alive. The farmers were decimated. But those moister farmers seem like a pretty tough bunch. That must have been some fight.

What if the farmers gave worse than they got, doing even more damage to the Tusken Raiders?

After that the Tusken Raiders gave up trying to trade Shmi, and instead made her pay for the toll the farmers inflicted on them.

Shmi being held for a month was revenge. It could be revenge for how many Tusken Raiders were killed. Revenge for the death of a chief or the son of the chief. Whatever it would be reason enough for the surviving Tusken Raiders to justify using a month's worth of resources so a person could suffer.

 

Not sure about this.
Look at the size of the Sand People camp, I counted about twenty tents.
Say two adult warriors per tent so maybe about 40 warriors in all.
40 vs 30 and the farmers were all but destroyed. I think they walked into an ambush and were decimated.

But say a chieftain or some other important person was killed, why take the revenge out on Shmi?
The farmers lost a lot of people so those farms are now much more vulnerable.
So take their revenge on them.
Plus most of the farmers that followed were killed, so they already had their revenge.

Water is a very precious resource on Tatooine and to waste it in someone just for revenge is still very stupid.
If they want Shmi to suffer for what her people did, just deny her any food or water. That will kill her slowly but would also be horribly painful.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

I'm counting 27 teepees that make up the Tusken Raider Camp. In our universe a teepee would accommodate 8 to 10 individuals. A few of them look smaller, like maybe for animals. And we know Shmi's kept in a Teepee that isn't living space. There could be upwards of 80 warriors easily.

We don't know who the farmers killed or how many Tusken Raiders they killed.

Before fighting the Farmers, maybe there were 100 tents worth of Sandpeople, maybe 200. Since the Sandpeople are nomads the camp we see in the movie is just enough space to house the current size of the tribe.

So why keep Shmi alive? If a lot of people were killed, they actually might have a slight surplus of water at the moment. Also they might want her alive if the Farmers come back. The Sandpeople know they killed almost all of them, but they don't know if larger numbers are on the way. I'd think they'd be less likely to torture Shmi if they want to use her as a hostage. I do think the Sand People expect another attack. (Just not from one man army Anakin)

Look at the camp. It's out in the middle of the desert. It offers no shelter from the sun. How are they getting water there? It's not near food resources. The Sandpeople are nomads. They can pack up the tents and go anywhere. This camp set up looks like it's for defense to me. The Tusken Raiders can see whatever is coming in any direction for miles away. So no surprise attacks on the ground. And there are no cliff walls boxing them in. The tribe could retreat in any direction. There are slight rock outcroppings on the desert floor around the camp that give cover on the horizon for most of the camp. These rocks are also a spot where scouts can be stationed. If an attack party is spotted, the warriors can use those rocks as a defensive line while the rest of the tribe packs up and leaves the other direction.

Doesn't Star Wars teach up all revenge is stupid.

I was reading a bit more about Native Americans. During the French and Indian War the natives would sometimes eat the prisoners. Yikes.

And then there is this on Wikipedia:

 

Sidious definitely showed interest in Anakin in TPM. If he did some research, he would locate Anakin’s original home and thus his mother. It shouldn’t be too difficult… Tatooine is small and sparsely populated, Shmi isn’t hiding from anyone, and Anakin would be famous for winning the podrace. After finding her, he just needs to check up on her occasionally to keep himself updated on any changes. Watto had a written record of where she was sold to, so having a sneak peek at it would reveal her new location.

If Sidious can get the Senate to support the transformation of the Republic in the Empire, I think bribing a primitive, violent tribe into capturing and torturing someone should be a piece of cake. He might’ve offered them tools, weapons, barrels of water, etc.

If the Tuskens were able to kill 26/30 people and injure at least one other, then capturing some alive should be doable too if they wanted. Even if they escaped at the time, the Tuskens can still hunt them down at a later date (it might even be easier to attack them in their homes rather than when a group of them have assembled together ready for attack). But for some reason, they were only interested in torturing Shmi.

If it’s because they see her as a trespasser of their territory and they wanted to set an example, it makes more sense to beat her to death in one setting and throw her corpse at the Lars homestead (if they figure out her address) in a “This is what happens if anyone trespassess our territory” kind of sense, or hang the corpse outside their place to intimidate anyone who tries to invade. Instead, they beat her on and on inside their own tent. If Anakin didn’t arrive, no outsiders would even know she was tortured for a whole month.

If the Tuskens intended for her to die a lot sooner and gave her no food or water, I doubt willpower alone can make her last that long. If it was a couple days maybe, but not a whole month.

Well, a cut scene is cut…

If dreams are a normal way for Jedi to have visions, why didn’t Obi Wan and Anakin immediately suspect something?

Anakin can just say no to having a nightmare, rather than making up something about the Jedi in general that can easily be proven to be a lie if she just asked another Jedi.

Cliegg was willing to risk the lives of 30 people to save her, he’d probably be willing to pay quite a bit I would think. Unless the Tuskens asked for an unaffordable amount… which loses the whole point of capturing her.

 

That's a great point. I've been reading more about Native American hostages and there was money to be made for sure. In some parts of the country there was almost a set rate. The accounts of raids sound terrifying.

It tells you a lot about the other farmers, both how they regard Cliegg and how united they are as community. Would the farmers have done this for any of the families? I'd hope so. I wonder if the Lars family was ostracized later because of the other families losses. Like did Owen and Beru live for 23 years with the blame of the community?

Anakin would probably be hailed as a hero by the farmers if they learned he killed the entire Sand People camp. That would be some twist to show in the movie, if after Anakin's breakdown in the garage the farmers thank him for the good he did. No wonder no one else was at Shmi's funeral. The other farmers were still morning their own losses.

 

Because they already had her secured and weren't even present when the trap was sprung. The trap was for anyone crossing their territory. By the time any Tusken showed up to check it, the survivors were long gone.

The point was that when they were done, they would probably take her corpse to wherever and leave it to be found. Besides, it is unclear if they knew that she lived at the Lars farm. My understanding was that she had gone quite a ways off. If you watch the unused opening of ANH, Luke's location when he spots the space battle and goes to Toschie Station, is quite a ways from the farm.

The human condition is amazing at times. Some people can live past the expected lifespan when in danger like that.

But it still plays out in subsequent films.

They're not normal, but one way. And as Yoda says to both Skywalker men, the future is difficult to see. Anakin can see his mother, but he does not know what it is that he is seeing. Not until the last vision when he says that he can see Shmi as clearly as he can see Padme standing in front of him. Just as Anakin cannot see clearly that Padme is on Polis Massa, much less who else is there besides Obi-wan. And he doesn't even see him the first time.

Because he's trying to put on a facade to hide what's going on. He's still trying to act as he did yesterday.

What money? He's a poor moisture farmer, not Jabba the Hutt. And as noted, in "The Searchers", there was no compensation to be had. Lucas used that film as inspiration for this part of the film.

 

That sounds cool. Is that a story you made up or something from the EU before it was wiped clean and flushed?

That's true. Those moisture farms are huge. Shmi had a huge moister farm. Entire towns are smaller than the property that Luke grew up on. That's why he needs a landspeeder to get where he is going. It's like wind farms today or something.

Who did this? What is expected life span? So like someone is in danger and they live to 120 years old? Sounds fake.

It's not in the other movies. That scene does not play in the other movies.

The future is always in motion.

The Tusken Raiders are even more poor. In real life there are plenty of examples of captives being ransomed off for not very large amounts but what meant a lot to the natives. It's also true that Native Americans like to torture captives for entertainment. It was a cultural thing.

 

There was a wire trap laid - the wires cutting off legs and heads - but the Tusken were present as well. Cliegg - after losing his leg, kills the Tusken who was at the trap. It was in the AOTC novelization.

 

It's from the novel. Thanks for the heads up.

 

I really don't think Sidious was behind the kidnapping. Sure, he COULD have arranged it, but I don't think it was important enough to him. He already had Anakin's trust, knew he was disappointed by the Jedi, and so he was pretty sure Anakin would eventually turn to the dark side. I just can't see him sending someone to Tatooine to bribe a primitive barbaric species to kidnap Anakin's mother. Besides, I think the Tusken are really too primitive to be bribed into torturing someone. Those acts are simply part of their nature. So I think what happened is simply a coincidence or bad luck for Anakin and the Lars family. Sidious may be evil but he was not behind every single act of cruelty that took place in the galaxy.

 

From the film itself, Cliegg’s description of Shmi’s capture doesn’t sound like she fell into a physical trap:
“They came out of nowhere. A hunting party of Tusken Raiders.”
“From the tracks, she was about halfway when they took her.”

It’s still pretty pointless to keep her around that long. If the purpose was to spread terror, beating her until she dies and then using the corpse asap would probably be more effective. Postponing her death causes two potential problems:
1.) the family might try to rescue her before she dies (which did happen), causing trouble for the Tuskens, or
2.) the family might’ve given up looking for her by the time she dies (hence the corpse may never be found).

I agree that this incident was not required to turn Anakin. However, getting him to lash out in hatred must be useful somehow. Sidious got Anakin to kill Dooku out of revenge. Vader tried to get Luke to release his anger. My guess is that the experience of an anger outburst aids in the understanding of the dark side techniques. So while it is not required for the turn itself, it helps with training in the dark side once he does turn.

 

Sure, Anakin's revenge on the Tuskens may certainly have been useful for Sidious, I just don't think he was in any way behind it. Just like Anakin falling in love with Padmé and marrying later turned out to make him choose the dark side was helpful so that Anakin followed Sidious even more, he still didn't arrange the first meeting between them in TPM. At that time Sidious didn't even know Anakin existed, unless we believe in the theory that he somehow helped to create Anakin in the first place. But that is pure theory and never supported in any of the canon. No, I think Sidious just used those events to make Anakin trust him more and ultimately become his new apprentice.
As I said, many bad things happen in the saga, but we can't blame all of them on Palpatine. Shmi happened to live on a farm close to Tusken territory, who are known to attack everyone, for several years. This was bound to happen sooner or later. The irony is that she would have been safe if she stayed Watto's slave.

 

I was talking about the rescue party, not Shmi.

Torturing Shmi had a purpose. To inflict pain on a person as well as their loved ones. It is just as agonizing for the Lars, knowing that she was suffering as it would be for Shmi, who was physically and emotionally suffering. What happens to her corpse afterwards is gravy.

The point in this being random is that life is random and things can happen that are beyond your control. This plays into Anakin's reasons for turning later on, because he believes that Shmi's fate will be repeated with Padme. That Padme will die as his mother did, not in the same manner, but in such a way that nothing can be done to save them. And Anakin will let himself believe that it is possible to save those that he cares for the most, by trying to use the Force to prolong one's life. He told Padme that he couldn't save his mother, because he was not strong enough to will her to live. So when he sees that Padme will die, he will want the power to will her to live. This is more effective for Palpatine's conversion plan and it keeps the universe as a random event and not another manipulation by Palpatine.

Besides, this has a bonus effect of being similar to what happens with Luke, in that Vader knows that he left the safety of Naboo and went to Tatooine, because his mother was suffering. Vader gambles that Luke has a similar attachment to his friends in the Millennium Falcon and thus he intends to capture and torture them, in order to draw Luke out of hiding. This parallel winds up being twisted when you think about what Anakin went through, that he would intentionally put his own son through it.

 

Was Shmi's death part of Palpatine's scheme?

No. Anakin just made the mistake of confiding in Palpatine about it, whom used it to his advantage.

I think in Hebrew Shmi means "my name". In one draft Lucas had her name as "Shmi Warka". Warka might also be from Hebrew name for the Sumerian city of Urek. The legendary hero and tragic figure Gilgamesh ruled that city. In many ways Anakin is a take off of this character . Warka can also serve as a form of Skywalker. So her name is basically "My name is Skywalker".