CT Was Sidious doomed to fail?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by windu4, Nov 6, 2012.

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  1. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    So I was rewatching RoTJ and I realized something. Sidious truly believed that they would survive the Rebel attack. Which brings me to my question. Would Luke Skywalker falling to the dark side have made a difference? It was pretty clear that Sidious was arrogant and that the Rebels were managing to hold their own in the fight. By the end of the battle Lando and Wedge were able to take out the power couplings (or whatever) on Death Star II. If Luke had indeed come to the dark side of the Force would Sidious have been able to turn his attention to the Rebel fleet and wtfpwn everyone? Or would he still have perished upon the Death Star?

    Personally I think the answer is "yes" and that the reason Luke was willing to throw away his lightsaber and die at Sidious hands initially was because he was fairly certain his friends would succeed. Thoughts?
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The emperor living or dying, Luke turning to the darkside, Anakin Skywalker turning to the Light Side, had little to do with the outcome of the final battle and the rebellion alliance's victory.
  3. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    Well I'll play devil's advocate here. Darth Vader said in ANH that the power of the Force basically outstripped that of the Death Star. So if Sidious did succeed in turning Luke to the dark side maybe he would have been able to tap into his near infinite power in The Force and put a swift end to the war.
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What do you mean? The Death Star 2 was not built just for the rebels. It's main purpose was a symbol to keep people in line, not even to use on planets. The Tarkin Doctrine says that fear, not use of Force, will keep the imperial civilians and citizens in line.

    How could Lord Darth Vader have ended the War with the Force?
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  5. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    I'm talking about Sidious. Theoretically speaking he's the most powerful Force User at that time during the war. Why couldn't he use his Force Powers to put an end to the Rebels? For example, in the Thrawn trilogy he was able to use battle meditation to focus his troops and help them defeat the rebels. In another production that shall-not-be-named he used his powers to create worm holes to devastate whole fleets.

    If Luke Skywalker had turned to the dark side would he have been able to detect that the Death Star was about to explode and actually keep Lando/Wedge from succeeding? I know the battle was mainly symbolic but it still seems like there are consequences either way. Luke barely managed to escape himself.
  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Another production that shall not be named? What is that?

    How did Luke barely manage to escape the 2nd Death Star?

    How was the Battle of Endor a symbolic battle?
    Last edited by Lord Tyrannus, Nov 6, 2012
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  7. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    Dark Empire.

    The Death Star was literally collapsing around him while he was escaping in his shuttle. He barely managed to make it before the hangar bay he was in exploded. I thought that was pretty obvious.
  8. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What do you mean by Dark Empire?

    So, Luke survived the 2nd death star by coincidence. If he turned to the Darkside, would he have died on the 2nd Death Star, or would the 2nd Death Star survive and Rebels lose war? Why did the Emperor and Anakin Skywalker want to turn Luke to the darkside? Why did Luke refuse to turn? Philosophical and religious reasons, or for the Rebel Alliance?

    If Luke wasted an extra second, said an extra word talking to Anakin or the Emperor, he would have died in the explosion, right? Why did the Rebels not help Luke escape? Did they care if he died on the DS2?
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  9. windu4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2008
    star 4
    1) Google it.

    2) That's the question I was asking in my original post. Also if you knew anything about Sith, Sidious or Vader it's pretty obvious that Sith are always backstabbing each other. Vader was a crippled man far past his prime. Sidious needed new blood and someone with ridiculous force potential. I refuse to answer those last two questions because again, it's obvious and easy to determine from the movie.

    3) The Rebels didn't know he was on the ship. Only Han/Leia did and they had no way of alerting the space fleet.
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  10. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    I meant, was Dark Empire the book with the wormholes? Now, I looked it up on the Internet and Google and realized it was.

    Did the Rebels care if Luke escaped? Or, was it," fend for yourself kid, don't interfere with us. We're not waiting for you.". How did Han Solo and Princess Leia know? What were they doing while Luke was on the Death Star 2?
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  11. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    lets see. Imperials defeated. Vader dead, Emperor dead. Giant space station destroyed. That pretty much sums up how symbolic the Battle of Endor was.
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  12. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Palps did use battle meditation It's pretty clear in the rotj novel because after he dies, his fleet and troops get all out of focus and morale drops like a stone
  13. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    At some point after the Thrawn trilogy, it was retconned that Grand Admiral Declann was the one doing most of the battle meditation at Endor.
  14. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Oh really..
    I guess he must have bit the dust too
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Nov 15, 2012
  15. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    No. Sideous failed? No. Unless if Sideous did die in the Return of the Jedi. Because if Luke turned to the dark side, then Sideous & Luke would have hopped into a secret ship and escape the second Death Star. Vader or Anakin would have probably been left to die.

    So what is the ultimate answer to the question of this thread, of the OP? We will not know until the seventh film comes out in 2015. If Sideous survived the sixth film, then Luke would have survived too. If Sideous really did die, then Luke would have most likely died, as well in that same second Death Star..... I guess it depends on the details...... it is possible for an evil Luke to survive, even if Sideous did die....
    Last edited by JoeyArnold, Nov 19, 2012
  16. Julius Vernon Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    Based on the Emperor's confidence in surviving the battle I think he thought that turning Luke was a slam dunk. I think at that point that he turns Luke he believes he could have turned his attention to the battle and secured victory or perhaps escaped to create an even more powerful Empire with Luke at his side in the stead of Vader.
  17. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3


    how does Sidious go from destroying a Republic to getting killed in a death star?
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  18. BoomBach Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 17, 2012
    It's a plausibility that Sidious was using battle meditation had to stop because of Luke but had he been allowed to continue could of turned the tide of battle. But just in theory.
  19. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Did you watch the movies?
  20. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3

    I have watched all six films many times and all the episodes of the clone wars and have read books.
  21. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    Then how can you not understand the question you just asked?
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  22. JoeyArnold Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2012
    star 3
    I am asking about the skills of Sidious. Because he carefully and successfully destroyed the republic. He spent years making sure that nobody killed him. There were millions of things that could have killed Sidious. And then Vader kills Sidious like a piece of cake.
  23. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Not quite sure what you mean by "piece of cake." Take a moment to think of what logically went into Vader taking Sidious by surprise and killing him. The movie has time restraints. It can't spell everything out. Vader spent what 15-20 years as Sidious' subordinate. Clearly Sidious thought he had nothing to fear from Vader. I mean just a few minutes before Sidious is killed, Vader is fighting Luke for Sidious. What would make Sidious believe that Vader would go from fighting Luke to throwing him down a shaft. The simple answer is that Sidious believe Vader was loyal and had nothing to fear from Vader. Unfortunately for Sidious, he was wrong.
  24. tsunami1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2012
    star 1
    Also bear in mind that Sidious was disgusted and disappointed by what Anakin had become on the shores of Mustafar. If there had been a convenient replacement, make no mistake, Sidious would have had Vader's helmet on a pike. He knew that Vader's power had been muted by the life-support suit, and therefore he believed that, even if Vader had turned on him (which seemed unlikely in the extreme), Vader would be no threat. If you want proof of this, the same Force lightning that Sidious pumps into Vader had Windu shuddering like a fish on a hook, Yoda thrown against the furthest wall and Luke turned into a jibbering wreck. Yet Vader carried on walking. Killing off Palpatine was by no means a "piece of cake".
  25. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Dictators never seem to retire...unless they're Fidel, anyway. These guys don't have a very successful record of not being violently slain, so, historically speaking yeah Sidious was doomed one way or another.
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