was the empire really all that bad

It's not hearsay when the omnicient narrator of the book(whills or otherwise explains the history involved.) This is the case when the narrator explains something that the characters in the story can't see or hear(as in background information). or such as switching over to the bad guys point of view, so we can hear there words. Or switching over to a "extra" nonknown character and give us there point of view briefly. Then we know several of the story. Every bit of the ideas of empire slavery has been mentioned in the omnicient narrative. Now if a non-omnicient gffa historian says something then yes it's propaganda.

The only time it can be propaganda is when the characters in the story make the accusations. Then again propaganda is anything anyone says about something they strongly feel about and argue about, so even you fteik with your devils advocatism are resorting to propaganda. Don't accuse something of being propaganda while using propagana, it's hypocritical, . Propaganda as a term is neutral term, it's neither good or bad. Just the purposes of the speakers intentions are good or bad.

Any case when something is mentioned by the Omnicient narrator(whills or otherwise), it is what happened, no arguements about it.

 

"Don´t accuse something of being propaganda, while using propaganda yourself."

Thats the same as saying don´t counter an argument with an argument of your own.

As for the omniscient narrators, well, in the novelisation of ANH the Whills tell us about Palpatines henchmens establishing a reign of terror and fear. Not a single word mentions slavery.

Besides even the omniscient narrators seem to be biased, after all already the openingtrailer of ANH tells us, that the Galactic Empire is evil. By that it is made sure for the viewers, that they know, who the baddies are and don´t have to think for themself.

If not for highranking imperials admitting, that some races make excellent slaves (like Kirtan Loor and Ysanne Isard in the X-Wing-series) or other incidents, we could ignore the topic of slavery in the empire at all.

What i think to be bigger hypocrisy is, that there existed slavery during the time of the old republic and nothing was done and during the time of the empire so much fuss is made about it.

 

This is a rehash of a similar thread only about a month old.

I will go and try to find the link, it was great reading.

To sum up our concensus, The Empire was a good system of rule and government, that was efficent and strong.

What made it evil was the distortions of the Emperor and those who served him on some levels. (eg. Hethrir, Vader, Brandl etc.)

Without him, the Empire would of formed possibly the strongest example of government concieved by man to this date.

The 'New Order' does not oppress your freedoms. What would you do with your 'freedoms'? Do you know what the word even means? So you can't chant around like a fool and destroy your own life through ignorance, and you must live within a loose structure of order.

Good! This is the only way the majority of the population could make a good living and enjoy life. If you can get over this whole ridiculous concept of 'freedom' which no can properly define, the Autocratic New Order is possibly the best model for real world Government we have.

The U.S.A are showing the weakness of a pseudo-democracy as we speak. Let the people think they are free whilst you legislate oppression, and people will rebel.

If the U.S stopped trying to hide their strong arm tactics - as President Bush is champing at the bit to do - they would command the respect of their population and become stronger for it.

I will bring the link back soon, comrades.

 

Sure the empire wasn't all that bad. If you don't mind slavery, murder, destruction of entire planets and all those living there, military rule, Extremely high taxes, poverty, living in fear, watching your family dragged of to be killed, or forced to join the military.

No it wasn't bad at all.

 

"What i think to be bigger hypocrisy is, that there existed slavery during the time of the old republic and nothing was done and during the time of the empire so much fuss is made about it."

Isn't slavery banned in the Old Republic.

But slavery exists in planets out of there jurisdiction that are part of the Hutt galactic government(what ever they call there government)? I think it was ben burtt's book that confirmed that hutt civilization is it's own country. There is nothing that OR could do about the the other governments slavery without resorting to full-scale war against there neighbors.

 

Most cases Imp-gushers state the ideals of order, and safety, and strength.
compared to the realities of chaos of disorder, and contention, and weakness of the Republic form of gov't.

STOP IT!!!
compare ideals with ideals realities with realities

Imp ideals: Order, security, strength
Republic ideals: Freedom, council, unity

Imp realities: autocracy, slaughter, oppression, slavery, corruption
Republic realities: Chaos, Buearacracy, minority interests, discord, corruption.

 

"Imp ideals: Order, security, strength
Republic ideals: Freedom, council, unity

Imp realities: autocracy, slaughter, oppression, slavery, corruption
Republic realities: Chaos, Buearacracy, minority interests, discord, corruption"

Well that pretty much sums it up, doesn't it?

Really makes neither one sound too appealing. However, the Imperial government at least has the power to stamp out its problems whenever there is a change in leadership. Getting rid of the problems of the Republic takes way too long due to the intricacies of the government and the weaknesses that the Republic forces on itself keep it from being able to do much other than talk.

 

Schnell Schnell, Let's join the empire today, .

 

Shirley, you can't be serious. Surely, even.

Another one of these 'If you have to ask, you should already know the answer' questions. Yes, it really was all that bad. It's easy to look at Palpatine, Vader and his closest minions as the originators of the Empire's evil, but that doesn't excuse the peon who pushes the button for them and blows up a planet, or even mops the floor outside of a holding cell while someone's being tortured to death.

To mix metaphors, 'the road to hell' is paved with people who were "just following orders" (and good intentions, of course).

 

Hmm, well if it wasn't for the stain of the racism and genocide of the Third Reich, Fascism would be just as acceptable a topic of debate as Communism.

But thanks to the Nazis, people just bring up the topic of the Holocaust and so forth and no one dares retort that for fear of being branded as a racist.

The fact of the matter is, that Fascism presents a form of government that is strong and secure in its power. It also ensures the subsequent preservation of that government by building in its citizens a sense of belonging and national pride.

The only problem with the Empire of Star Wars is the leadership of people like Palpatine and the anti-alien bias. And let it be noted that the anti-alien thing stems from Palpatine and his cronies, and is not inherent in the system. Looking at the Empire under competent leadership such as that of Thrawn or Pellaeon, it appears to be a fully acceptable state.

The main difference is that Palpy was more apt to give jobs to people he knew were so weak-willed or ambitious on their own, that he could rest assured that they would follow his orders to the letter either out of fear or because to do so would facilitate thier own selfish interests. This of course gave rise to the "Evil" Empire of the movies. Thrawn on the other hand, made a point of giving tasks to those most capable to do them.

 

The Flag Flies High!

Raise high the flag,
The ranks are closed and tight,
Storm Troopers march,
With firm and steady step.
< Souls of the comrades
Shot by Rebs and Countermight
Are in our ranks
And march along in step. >

Open the road
Just for the white battalion.
Let's clear the way
For the storm trooperman.
< In hope, to the Sunburst
Raised are eyes of millions,
Dawn breaks for Freedom
And bread for all man. >

This is the final
Bugle call to arms.
Already we are set
Prepared to fight.
< Soon Emperor's flags will wave
O'er every single street.
Enslavement ends
When soon we set things right. > .

 

GALCTiC EMPIRE= the good guys

They grasp the most important aspects of peace.

"peace through power"
and
"control the media , control the mind"

 

I believe the actual quote is "Peace through superior firepower."

 

nope , i can get the audio for ya but youll have to wait a while...

it was in the computer game Tiberian Sun (Westwood Studios) ...

 

Oh.

I was referring to Aliens, where Ferrero has it written on the dropship.

 

"peace through power"
and
"control the media , control the mind"


Sounds like it worked. Hurry, or you will be late at the re-education pod.

 

I personal Feel the empire is the right power in the SW galaxy.

I love how everyone show slavery as soooo bad. Well Boo freacking Hooo!!! EVERY!!!! every powerful nation in the world has come form slavery or off the death of others, welcome to reality people. USA is one of them so don't take the moral high road crap!! slavery, desrtocion of nations conquest. Romans, Britian,Japan, China, Russia, Gemany, France, hell pick one.

I love hearing the bleeding hearts wine about how thing like slavey and conquest are bad. Easy for you to say, It's already been done for you! so now that your safe, and have money this is bad, well with out it you would not be here. If as a country starting, you not ruthless and strong, you die!

It's easy to preach about freedom. But that term is relitive. With out order, peace, and a strong government there is no difference you just die. Its easy to say how great freedom is when you have anything you want, when your in a small, weak, poor country, you need a strong powerful government to get you up to where those idea's mean something.

Command& Conquer had it right
"peace through power!!"

The universe is a harsh place. And you get no where through peace. Because with out strengh no one will listen to your pleas for peace, they'll just come and kill you.

Welcome to reality people, the strong live and get stronger the weak die, thats how it is in nature, thats how it is in life.

 

And that's why I'm not a liberal.

 

The Empire as a whole wasn't bad, you just had some very evil people leading it.

 

hehe, well I'm gonna take a chance here and probably get flamed but oh well. The below is only my opinon, I'm not forceing them on anyone. They are my own, based on the books I've read and movies I've seen dealing with Star Wars


Well of course the Empire wasn`t perfect it has its flaws...But theres the circumstances that set the Empire to have to be so forceful. Disgruntled Senators were leading open rebellion against the established government. Useing terrorist acts to harm that government. The Empire had to go to extremes to protect the population, the entire galaxy from these terrorists of the so called "Rebel Alliance". The Empire though many can argue, successfully even, that the Empire went to extremes at times with dealing with these rebels. Alderann for example, was a viable military target. It was one of the central hubs of the Rebel Alliance money, weapons and many other various resources poured through "neutral" Alderann to support the Rebel Alliance. The destruction of an entire planet, although extreme in its harshness has to be weighed against what its destruction can do to halt the terrorist actions of the "Rebel Alliance" and restore peace to the Galaxy. The Empire was forced by the rebels to use many malcontents that had no moral objections to combating the rebels on a scale matching thier own. Those years of open rebellion against the Empire was chaotic times to say the least. Many things was done in attemps to restore peace and bring order from the chaos. The Empire had its good points and its bad points, like any government. But atleast, IMHO, the Empire was able for a time atleast to stablize the galaxy after the years of poor leadership by the "Old" Republic. The Republic it seems was more the cause for the galaxys problems than anything else. For centurys they let problems build up untill it took the actions by someone such as Palpatine to clean up the mess that was once the grand Republic.


My two cents

oh and to one someone said earlyer in the thread, don`t know about the guy the question was directed towards, but I do get a buzz out of seeing all those Imperials in RoTJ

hehehe


Hey just remember everyone, debate it all you want. Thats what these forums are for, so we can all get together and talk about this wonderful Star Wars universe we all love so well just don`t mad get at each other because someone has a different opinion. We all have own point of view on the subject and we can`t force someone to see it the same way we do. Thats just wrong. Try to be respectful of others hehe debateing if the Empire is bad or not is like debateing the size of a certain large star destoryer

 

Of course it wasn't. What you see "evil" and "bad" all depends on your point of view. I think I've said this many times already on similar boards.

Basically, I believe in semi-popular sovereignty. The government should be created in the people's vision. At the same time, these people must be educated and of good judgement, otherwise they'll draft constitutions where the elections are won by whoever is voted best-looking or something.