Was the Phantom Menace neccessary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Grizham1, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Annointed one has hit the nail on the head I think for many that feel a bit let down by the prequels. Why does GL seem so determined not to show the backstory he laid out in the OT. It was so simple. Get those things down in concrete first, then weave the rest of the plot around them. Half the problems the naysayers have revolve around things not turning out as we expected. The counter argument being that we aren't 100% satisfied because the prequels don't match the movies we had in our heads. If GL had concentrated on showing the following things, unequivocally(by which I mean they don't have to be explained with the certain point of view defence) half the problems would disappear.

    (As usual- if you have no problems with the prequels then I am jealous of you)

    Anakin and Obi-Wan' friendship needed to be established from the onset and fully developed.

    Obi-Wan was amazed at how strongly the force was with Anakin.

    Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin.

    Obi-Wan thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda.

    Yoda was the Jedi master that instructed Obi-Wan.

    Obi-Wan was reckless.

    Anakin was a cunning warrior.

    Anakin was the best star pilot in the galaxy.

    Owen felt that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine and not followed Obi-Wan on some damn fool ideallistic crusade.

    Obi-Wan does not seem to remember R2.

    Owen does not remember either droid.


    Now to be fair, episode 3 could certainly amend some of the issues I have and if it does then I will gladly eat my hat. As for the droids, that is more of a nit pick, although I feel it highlights one of Lucas's major failures as a writer-he doesn't kill his darlings. He was so enamoured with the idea of telling the stories from the droids' pov. What does it actually add? Sure, SW fans love 'em, but doesn't it just make the universe a lot smaller? Vader creating 3po? OK the idea of Anakin being a whizz of a mechanic is good, but why can't he make another droid? A new memorable character. Then you wouldn't have those who think that Anakin being the maker is just too cute. You also wouldn't be thinking, why doesn't Obi-Wan remember the droids? Does Vader realize that's 3po? Stuff like that that has nothing to do with the main story. And now we hear Chewie's going to be involved. Doesn't he learn? I love Chewie, but does he need to be in the prequels?

    Most of the inconsistencies between Obi-Wan came into play when Qui-Gon became a major player(Loco's started a thread on this) and Lucas gave him Obi-Wan's lines, character and actions. Again I love Qui-Gon, but that's because he is the Obi-Wan from the OT. Imagine TPM without Qui-Gon. I know you don't want to. Try. Suddenly you have the story that Obi-Wan related in the OT. Qui-Gon is reckless. Qui-Gon finds Anakin. Qui-Gon is amazed at how strongly the force is with him. Qui-Gon takes it upon himself to train him. Obi-Wan agrees to train him as a promise to his dying master. You must see how that differs from the way Obi-Wan told it. And yes, we know that Obi-Wan likes his old certain point of view, but that is the lamest cop out ever. The point being that in his original drafts Obi-Wan said and did everything Qui-Gon now does. Why did GL change this? Hopefully episode 3 holds a good answer.

    As for the age, I think having Anakin as a nine year old kid was a terrble idea that made it difficult for GL to develop both his friendship with Obi-Wan and his romance with Padme.Make everybody the age they were in AOTC. Set TPM two years before AOTC. Why does he have to be nine for leaving his mother to be traumatic? It doesn't matter anyway because GL doesn't do anything with it in the 10 years that pass between the two films.er in slavery, I hear you cry. So what. The way GL shows it slavery isn't such a bad life. Watto's not oppressive, just grumpy and greedy. They live in comfort, Anakin makes droids and races pods. Throw the slavery out, it's a cheap plot device that goes nowhere. But she has to be a slave so that he leaves her behind. Exactly. How lame. Make it his choice to leave. He choose
  2. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    To me, withouth TPM you completely ruin the awesome power of myth and emotion that you get from SW. Im sorry, but if Anakin were 16, it would look stupid to see Anakin saying, "I miss my mum. I miss her." That scene where he is saying goodbye to her would not look anywhere near as powerful or emotional. That is one of the most emotional moments in the SW saga. Also, you need the 10 year gap in order to allow for Palpatine's political machinations. THese things take a long time to carry out. Plus, you need it for Palpatine's seduction of Anakin to the darkside. And you need it for Anakin's training as a Padawan.
  3. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>True! Was it me, or did they (especially Anakin) come across as not really liking each other in the elevator?

    Out of interest, where in the OT were we "told" that Anakin liked Obi Wan? Or, to take it a step futher, what were we told about their relationship from anyone who wasn't spitting out barefaced lies about some bizarre schizophrenic suicide at the time?

    (Apologies for the misuse of the word schizophrenic. And misspelling, probably...)

    >>>You also wouldn't be thinking, why doesn't Obi-Wan remember the droids?

    True. Provided you can think of a reason that he would remember a droid he never met, and a droid who looks identical to hundreds of others, except he heard it's name being mentioned about 35 years previously...

    >>>If GL had concentrated on showing the following things, unequivocally(by which I mean they don't have to be explained with the certain point of view defence) half the problems would disappear.

    Why those things?

    Why not;

    Han meeting Chewbacca,
    Han winning the Falcon off Lando,
    Han making some "special modifications himself"
    The Falcon doing the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs.

    Would problems disappear if that part of the backstory was showin in the prequels?
  4. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    To answer your comments-obviously you would not keep the exact same lines in the same context. As it is I like most of the stuff in AOTC, but just because it is that way does not mean things couldn't have been improved. Obviously if you don't think it needs improving then I am certainly going to change your opinion nor should I even try. I'm trying to articulate why some of us have problems with the prequels. If you don't have those problems then I respect your opinion.

    I never said I would make him 16 either. I would start with him as a young man in his early 20's. If you think this makes the story less dramatic, why? Are the only films that have been dramatic been those involving a nine year old protagonist? Once again it boils down to the fact that many are happy with it as it is and can see that as the only possibility. Fair enough.

    As for Obi-Wan not remembering the droids-Obi-Wan has met both droids and they are both significant players in fairly dramatic events in the galaxy. You're using technicalities to get around these inconsistencies(granted they may be fully resolved and explained in episode 3).

    Obi-Wan mentions that Anakin was a good friend, as if he were his best friend. that was always the implication and also by far the most interesting story to tell. That also implies that the friend ship was mutual. Obviously the friendship should strain and ulimately tear apart with disastrous consequences but so far I feel this could have been developed a lot further.

    As for not showing Han's backstory? Oh please!
  5. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    And you are so out of it jKburtola. It's funny seeing fans like you that let the eye-candy distract you from the real truth..

    That there is no character development, good direction, and too much reliance on CGI. Too bad for you, you won't let yourself see that just cause it's Star Wars.


    Thanks for the flame [face_plain]

    Is it not fathomable to you bashers that I might actually like TPM & AOTC because they entertain me and are really enjoyable? ?[face_plain]

    And for your information thanks to films like TPM & AOTC I wouldn't be talking to you bunch of geeks at all. So don't give me "just cause its Star Wars" BS. [face_plain]

    I apologise to the moderators for my strong tone but I do not like my intelligence questioned by ignorant people.


    Jasper:
    Anakin and Obi-Wan' friendship needed to be established from the onset and fully developed.

    AOTC gives us a look at their friendship, believe it or not some friendships are like the one shown between Obi-Wan and Anakin. When you've known and been around someone for such a long time its hard not to be like that.

    Obi-Wan was amazed at how strongly the force was with Anakin.

    Well he is, in AOTC despite the fact he says that Anakin has become arrogant, he still acknowledges the depth of his skills.

    Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin.

    Exactly what happened in TPM, he did so despite great opposition from Yoda. Just because his Master made him promise to do so, doesn't mean he didn't actually take it upon himself to train Anakin.

    Obi-Wan thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda.

    Right and how has this been ignored/contradicted?

    Yoda was the Jedi master that instructed Obi-Wan.

    Ah Obi-Wan strikes again "From a certain point of view". Yoda did train Obi-Wan, like he trained every young Padawan that came into the Order. He did all the preliminary training and then a Master or Knight would take over.

    Obi-Wan was reckless.

    Let see: His fight with Darth Maul and jumping out of a window to grab hold of a droid. Hmmmm I think that about qualifies that he was in some way reckless.

    Anakin was a cunning warrior.

    Well he survived the droid factory and the Arena confrontation, he showed alot of skill there. Episode 3 will doubtless expand on this.

    Anakin was the best star pilot in the galaxy.

    I'll leave this to the end when I make my sum up.

    Owen felt that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine and not followed Obi-Wan on some damn fool ideallistic crusade.

    I'll have to concede this one, but then storioes evolve and change. Plus......

    Obi-Wan does not seem to remember R2.

    Right so he is supposed to remember a droid he doesn't own and doesn't see very often if at all in the PT. Interesting. Plus there are many R2 units, he isn't likely to remember one and instantly spot it.

    Owen does not remember either droid.

    Again there are many droids of the same type. Plus C-3PO was in dirty old plating when Owen last saw him, Owen is hardly going to recognise a Golden plated droid as C-3PO.

    Just to sum up really, you're saying these things aren't in the PT, yet most of these come from the mouth of Obi-Wan and he is hardly a totally reliable source of information. You're incredibly trusting of someone who lied to Luke about his father.

    As Obi-Wan himself would say...."Curious."
  6. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    If you're satisfied with the way all of these things have been portrayed then great! I'm not. All of the ways round my points are loop holes. You're right they do work to a certain extent, but I don't think it's harsh to say that all of these things should have to be explained with a sentence in brackets.

    Yes, I know that many friendships are like the one depicted in AOTC. When Obi-Wan talked of his good friend I expected more than this though. I will concede that GL can't compete with anybody's expectations or OT rose tinted glasses(TM). However, I don't think I'm alone when I air these grievances. For me the prequels could have been far greater than they have been and where else can I discuss this point if not here.

    As for Anakin being a cunning warrior because he told the pilot to aim at the fuel cells, is that the best way you can imagine to show him being a cunning warrior? Again, though this can still be shown in episode 3.

    Yoda training all the Jedi is a cop out that GL had to come with after shoving Qui-Gon into the story. It works and I suppose this on it's on doesn't really affect anything.

    I won't accept that Obi-Wan is reckless though. Yes he fights, yes he jumps out of windows, he's a jedi and a hero in an action film-it would be pretty dull if he didn't do those things( I actually think it would have made more sense for Anakin to jump through the window). But his character is not reckless. Qui-Gon is. That's because he was Obi-Wan originally. Obi-Wan is now the straight man. The voice of reason every time. He does not even show the slightest hint that Anakin is exceptional in TPM. He agrees to train the boy because "Qui-Gon believed in him." Admittedly for the rest of that scene it appears that he has become reckless. He has become Qui-Gon. Had this been the case it would have been very good character development. But they seem to forget this by the time it comes to AOTC. It's the little details. Why not give him Qui-Gon's lightsaber for episode 2? It adds to character but they ignore it, much like the Japoor snippet. not hugely important but often it's the small touches that add depth. In AOTC Obi-Wan is not reckless. He asks the counccil for advice every step of the way.

    As for Obi-Wan not thinking he could train the boy better than Yoda- all they had to do is change some of the dialogue around. Have Yoda or Mace Windu voicing concern that Anakin may not be ready and was too young to train and Obi-Wan refuses to listen. That's it. Simple as that. Could be a great dramatic scene. As it stands now Obi-Wan just basically admits that he may have been wrong to train the boy.

    I've butted heads on the reckless subject before and I 've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why he can be described as reckless. Qui-Gon gets written into the script, taking Obi-Wan's role and lines so Obi-Wan ends up as the towing the jedi council line mechanic with nothing to do. Qui-Gon is reckless, I think that's fairly obvious. Obi-Wan is not.
  7. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    Stop flaming, stewart-18.
  8. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    You are right Jasper. Ep1 should've been just Ob-iwan, and Anakin. No Qui-gon. That would've given the film time to establish the so-called friendship we have not seen so far.

    They ban people at the official site for cutting up the PT films I hear.


    Peace.
  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    My first post to you was not arrogant. I just showed that you are blind just because of the "SW" lable. You fanboys are Lucas suck ups.

    This is aflame bait. Your new here stewart-18 so you might want to watch what you say.

    We can not talk about posters. And call some one blind because they like the PT well that is a flame. So again your new. I'm jsut letting you know that you should be careful and not start calling people who like the PT blind, etc, etc.
  10. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    My first post to you was not arrogant. I just showed that you are blind just because of the "SW" lable. You fanboys are Lucas suck ups.

    [face_plain] Again you ingored what I said (typical!) without TPM or AOTC I'd not be the Star Wars fan I am today.
    I'm not blind and not a suck up.

    To tell you the truth before 97 and 99, if Star Wars was mentioned to me I'd have told you I hate it. How much that changed in just a few years.
    Just because I like TPM & AOTC does not make me blind or a suck up, and again I stand by my earlier comment you are an ignorant person who is a terrible generaliser.

    Your whole post was nonsense RK. It is to obvious that Lucas is just making this up as he goes along now. If he had the whole story planned out since the 70's there would not be all the inconsistancies we are getting.

    Its JK actually and of course he makes it up as he goes along. He did however do a outline of the PT back when ESB was being made. Yet with every film he expands upon the outline by making it up. I mean thats what you do with you OWN story right?
    And there are no inconsistencies.

    "Your focus determines your reality"
    "Whats in there?" "Only what you take with you."
  11. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "And there are no inconsistencies."


    See? you just proved you blinded yourself with the eye-candy. Either that, or you better be joking.

    Let me break it down.

    The age difference between Anaikan/Obi. in Ep1-2

    None of Ani's "great piiloting" so far.

    3p0 does not know vader made him in the OT? does not remember the skywalker name before he meets Luke?

    And others I'm sure Jasper brought up.

    You are the arrogant one.



    Peace.
  12. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
    "Your new here stewart-18 so you might want to watch what you say."


    You mean "you are new here so I have the right to tell you what to say here."


    What is this place? Germany 1945?


    Peace.

  13. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    JK, I didn't read the part about you not really being into SW until the PT came along. In that case, fair play to you. Did you know every detail of the OT before or did you watch them again having seen and loved the PT? Because I fully admit that if you were to watch the films in episodic order then none of the things I I have issue with would be such a problem. I may still think there are inconsistencies and plot holes but I don't think they would bother me the way they do now.
  14. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    "you are new here so I have the right to tell you what to say here."

    I'm saying you can talk about the movies but you can not talk about the posters. No one is ever aloud to flame or make fun of any of the posters here. You can talk about how you don't like the PT all you want. Just as long as you don't flame or call any of the people who like the PT blind, etc, etc.
  15. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    Let's not de-rail the thread with this.
  16. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>>As for Obi-Wan not remembering the droids-Obi-Wan has met both droids and they are both significant players in fairly dramatic events in the galaxy. You're using technicalities to get around these inconsistencies(granted they may be fully resolved and explained in episode 3).

    So exactly when did he meet them?

    He certainly never even came within a mile or so of C3P0 in TPM, and only heard R2D2's "name" once. (I wonder how many identical R2 droids are in the films... I'd guess at well over a hundred.)

    AOTC- he sees R2D2 again briefly as Anakin is leaving for Naboo, but doesn't find out his "name". Again, doesn't meet C3P0.

    And if you want to get picky, in ANH he says he doesn't remember owning a droid. He doesn't say he doesn't remember meeting one!

    >>>As for not showing Han's backstory? Oh please!

    Please explain exactly why the backstory of the most popular OT character is irrelevant, while the backstory of another (conjured up from an overinterpretation of a single line of dialogue from a big fat LIE of a speech!) is a crime to even deviate from.
    Please.

    As for Obi Wan being reckless, what makes you think he should be? Oh yeah- "was I any different when you taught me?" So in other words, Obi Wan was reckless when he was about 9, therefore he should be when he was 29.
    [face_plain]

    Oh, and let's take a quick look at these terrible inconsistencies...

    >>>The age difference between Anaikan/Obi. in Ep1-2

    What are the ages of them in each film?

    >>>None of Ani's "great piiloting" so far.

    Except for the piloting pod racers and piloting speeders around coruscant...

    >>>3p0 does not know vader made him in the OT? does not remember the skywalker name before he meets Luke?

    Gee... I wonder if he'll have his memory erased in Episode III...
  17. stewart-18 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2003
    star 1
  18. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "Please explain exactly why the backstory of the most popular OT character is irrelevant, while the backstory of another (conjured up from an overinterpretation of a single line of dialogue from a big fat LIE of a speech!) is a crime to even deviate from."

    Simple. Nothing from Han's backstory ever figures into the plot (except for the interlude with Lando, an issue so minor that all the relevant details are fully explained in seconds.)Besides, the timeline would be off; at the latest point Episode III could possibly work them in, Han and Lando would be five years old at most.
  19. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I'll admit you have me on Obi-Wan not meeting 3PO. Touche.

    Han's backstory. Sigh. The whole point of the PT is to show the story of Anakin Skywalker as alluded to in the conversation Obi-Wan had with Luke. He's an old liar is he? Yes we know he hid certain truths before but you could argue that Luke was not ready for the burden. However, the prequels so far have proved him even more of a liar.

    I wasn't sure about some of your other points because either you seem to have misquoted me, I wrote down the wrong thing in the first place or you were referring to someone else. If it was me, I think it would be odd that Vader would not recognise 3PO. It doesn't take Anakin too long in AOTC.

    And I think Obi-Wan knows who R2 is. If you're happy with the one droid upon millions approach fine, but I think the point is that they are both quite unique characters. Of course 3po at least will have his memory erased. It still doesn't go against my initial theory that the PT would have been better off without the droids.

    I won't argue the reckless case, especially based on what he may or may not have been when he was nine. To me, he's anything but reckless. If you think otherwise, then bully for you.


    As, I said before, if you're happy with how everything's been shown then you will have no problem with this. I do. I'm trying to articulate my reasons why.
  20. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Loco for Lucas, Jasper Jones, my 5/13 10:51pm post was directed at Stewart for his flame. Im sorry if you thought it was directed at you two. I didnt mean for it to be. I respect both your opinioins about the prequels as well, and we will just have to agree to disagree. About the backlash, yes, I was refering to the media. Not only are they changing thier views on TPM, they are bashing both prequel films with nonconstructive criticism. Things like David Brin mimicking Anakin Skywalker in his review just arent needed. ("Hi. Im Anakin Skywalker. And my mother is the Virgin Mary!!! Ha Ha!! And your mother isnt!!! Ha hAH Ha!!!")
  21. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    And where does that come from? Even after the SE, Lucas was exalted and honored as a filmmaking and creative genius. Why did that change all of a sudden? I admit, it was chic to be anti-Star Wars, but only because Lucas and TPM made it possible. Were the films as "great" as they are proclaimed, Lucas would be hailed as a genius like he was for years before. You need to take a closer look at what it is you're defending. I don't mean that as a veiled flame, but as a statement said with respect. You need to look closely at that film, and at the entire PT, and wonder "why" there is so much backlash. There has to be a reason why, and it's not the fans; we're only responding to what we see, so naturally the problem has to originate from the screen.
  22. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Im not talking about fans like you all, (well I am talking about SOME people on this site, but not you in particular), I am mainly talking about the media.
  23. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I understand, yes; I'm not standing up for the media, but there are indeed weaknesses in that film that those vultures have seen and exploited for the past four years. Yes, there are flaws in all film, but these are some biggies that really stand out.
  24. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Here is part of what I am talking about. In RObin Clifford's negative review of AOTC (which can be found on the first page of AOTC revies on rottentomatoes.com), he mentions TPM and how terrible it was. Then he says "I cant beleive I gave that turkey a B+!!" Well why did you???!!! Man, talk about grade inflation.
  25. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    But you still haven't answered "why" they talk about the movie like that? I was a big defender of the film for a long time, and I was trying to convince the people around me that it was every bit as good as the Classic Trilogy (which is what I'm calling the "OT" from now on :p ) until I just stopped believing it myself. The film hasn't stood the test of time so far, it grows more contemptible as it gets older while the OT got better with time.
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