Was the Phantom Menace neccessary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Grizham1, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    That's a good point Loco. There must be reasons why the new films have divided opinion so much. I mean, it's not as if I want to find flaws in the PT. Far from it. Had TPM been a better film the anti-SW feeling in the media would not be there. In fact, I think if AOTC (with a few amendments obviously) had been episode 1 it would have got a far better reception. As many have commented, noone would ecpect a great love story or dialogue from a SW film, but TPM felt so different and things like Jar Jar put people off to the point where they won't let those things slide.
  2. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    I think thats one thing about the Prequels and Star wars in geenral, nearly everyone has an opinion about it.
    Its got to such a position where everyone knows what Star Wars is and actually has an opinion.
    And TPM (and AOTC) hasnt really divided public opinion (monkey see monkey do type thing). But fan opinion yeah, I can accept that.
    The problem with it, as I see it, is there was too much hype and expectation with TPM. Which is why people got disappointed. And if you were to just say "I didn't like it because it was a bad movie with bad acting/dialogue" etc etc that shows that that persons expectations and view of Star Wars is kinda wrong.
    We should all know that Star Wars is not oscar material, that its not about the dialogue, the acting or anything else.
    Its supposed to be about the story, and how that entertains us. Everything else becomes good to us because of the story.
    Now I know what someone will say "But thats it the story was bad" yeah well doesn't that tell you something? That maybe Star Wars doesn't entertain you anymore? I mean yeah the OT does, but you've grown up with it and you got used to it. TPM was something new, different yet it still had the ability to appeal to everyone. Or as it seems with some of you, maybe not.
    Now those that didn't like TPM have essentially either not liked that genre, have become older, more cynical etc and just plain don't have the capacity to enjoy a film like TPM.
    I understand that its not to everyone's tastes, but that does not mean that TPM isn't necessary for the Star Wars story.
    No one apart from George Lucas himself knows what the Star Wars story is. Ok sure we have the old scripts, treatments even the old outline but thats not the real clue as to what the story is in Lucas' world.
    And when people's ideas of what "should" have been TPM, that those people have missed the boat, gone off course and followed the wrong road map.
    Star Wars never stopped being Lucas' story. And as such what he did with TPM is what his story is. Whether we like it or not, because its Lucas' story from start to finish, TPM IS necessary. Despite what the detractors would say.
    Its funny when people (even myself yes) start quoting what they thought or wanted from the PT. It kinda throws into the real logic of what I've just said above.
    Those that say "it should have been this way and not that" are acting like Star Wars is a hollywood production and that Lucas would listen to us. But the only time we have come into the process is when the film is released. Thats when we have to throw what we wanted and expected away and watch the film for what is, not it isn't.
    In the end Star Wars never has been anything to do with us. We didn't ask for it, we didn't go "yeah I'd love a mythological space fantasy", we were given it from someone who thought that his story would delight us and entertain us. In 1977 right through to 1983 it did. Even if there were a few groans at ROTJ.
    Yeah we paid good money to watch it, and yeah we do have our say once we've seen the finished product. But other than that, with Star Wars we are but a public that is given something to view which has not been tailored for everyone to splash out on and completely like. If people like that fantastic, if people don't then maybe he will have to start to change his attitude about how he makes his movies.
    So far the PT has been successful, and the naysayers are in the minority.
  3. Scott3eyez Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2001
    star 4
    >>"We should all know that Star Wars is not oscar material, that its not about the dialogue, the acting or anything else.
    Its supposed to be about the story, and how that entertains us. Everything else becomes good to us because of the story."


    #CoughAlecGuinnesscough#

    Have to say that I have yet to see a film with as much information in as little dialogue as the Star Wars prequels. Maybe that's because I read into them too much, maybe it's because I don't pay the same amount of attention to other films...

    >>>Simple. Nothing from Han's backstory ever figures into the plot (except for the interlude with Lando, an issue so minor that all the relevant details are fully explained in seconds.)Besides, the timeline would be off; at the latest point Episode III could possibly work them in, Han and Lando would be five years old at most.

    Well, to throw an argument that I picked up from the Bashers Sanctuary, there was nothing written in stone that the PT had to be about Anakin Skywalker, and set 20 years before the OT...

    The point I'm trying to make is that there are things hinted at in the OT that the PT isn't going to show.

    Some of them ("the Jedi master who instructed me" for example) get jumped all over, presumably because we've been shown Obi Wan being instructed by someone else, which although it doesn't contradict ESB, it's a different backstory to the one people hoped/expected to see.

    Some of them ("I won her off you fair and square") aren't going to be shown at all (I presume...), and much a I'd like to know how Han got the Falcon and whether Obi Wan knew anything about it before he met Han in ANH (I like to think that he did, personally), I'm not going to be upset if it doesn't happen in III.

    >>>Yes we know he hid certain truths before but you could argue that Luke was not ready for the burden. However, the prequels so far have proved him even more of a liar.

    How so? I can't think of anything other than "he betrayed and murdered your father" that was actually a lie, and that's an ESB thing, rather than a prequel thing.

    >>>If it was me, I think it would be odd that Vader would not recognise 3PO. It doesn't take Anakin too long in AOTC.

    AOTC- Anakin is with his mother, who he made promise not to sell C3P0. He was being spoken to by him, so if he didn't recognise the new coverings, he would have recognised the voice and put 2 and 2 together.

    In the OT, Vader never meets C3P0 in a place where he would expect to meet his old droid. I can't think of a single scene where he hears his voice, and the C3P0 in the OT is a different colour. He never sees him in ANH, he's in bits on chewie's back in the only scene they are together in in ESB, and he never sees him in ROTJ.

    Ignoring the theory that Vader is protecting C3P0 from Boba Fett in that scene, when and why would he recognise him?

    >>>And I think Obi-Wan knows who R2 is.

    In ANH, you mean? Why? Where from?
  4. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    Well, I think one reason for the backlash is mispercieved contradictions in the story of SW. When people saw TPM, people got all bent out of shape when it appeared that Yoda did not teach Obiwan. Luckily, Lucas later explained this. People need to have more faith in Lucas's ability to cover all the plot holes and preventing any contradictions. Lucas is not a stupid man. In my opinion, he is one of the world's greatest geniouses. Every potential contradiction that you have thought of, you can bet Lucas has thought of it.

    Also, Durwood made a good point in another thread that people were expecting TPM to be BETTER than the OT. WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT??? This is a 12 hour story. It would incredibally suck if the first chapter was the best chapter. It was never GL's intention to make TPM better than EMPIRE. If your watching the saga in order, it would suck to have the best chapter first. It would suck for the first 3 to be better than the second 3. THat just wouldnt make sense if it happened that way.

    TPM has also decreased in quality in my eyes, but that is from the best SW movie to the least SW movie(but still very worthy addition to the SW saga and perfect introduction.) I still view it as on the same level as the OT. When I saw it at first, I was saying , "Noooo! Its better than EMPIRE!! NOOO!! It cant be!!! Please God NO!!!!!! This is the first chapter!!! Its not supposed to be the best chapter!!!!!" I thought I was in denial by keeping EMPIRE as my sentimental favorite SW movie, but deep down TPM was my favorite. Luckily, that has changed, and time has shown that it is not better than EMPIRE, but I still view it as the perfect introduction to the saga. If I were Lucas, I wouldnt change a thing about it.

    Another thing is that people need to keep in mind that this is part of a 12 hour story. The 12 hour story is more important than the individual movie. I would rather have 6 mediocre films that make up an awesome 12 hour story, than 6 awesome films that make up a mediocre 12 hour story.

    Another reason is that people forgot that SW is cheesy and corny, and it always has been. They forgot that SW has never really been Oscar material. (Did they really think ANH was going to win best picture in 1977?) People were expecting the GODFATHER or something like that. The lines in SW movies have always been as lame as crap. People need to understand that Lucas has forceed himself into a certain style back in the late 70's, and he needs to stick with that style, even though today's audience might not respond as well to it.

    I dont think people understand that the PT is a TRAGEDY. It does not have a happy ending. THerefore, you are not supposed to feel Happy when you see it. Therefore, it is not supposed to have the the kind of jaunty banter that you see from Leia and Han ("would it help if I got out and pushed?") The humor is specifically meant to be toned down to match the tone of the TRAGEDY.

    Here is another thing. I freely admit that the PT lacks a lot of the things that attracted the mainstream audience. BUt these things should not be of importance to hardcore SW fans. Lines like "I reckonized you foul stench when I was brought on board", should not be of primary importance. Sure, it would be nice if Padme said something like that, but it wouldnt really be right for her character nor the story. This is why I get surprised and disheartened when hardcore SW fans say that the prequels suck. I can understand how a casual mainstream fan wouldnt like it, but how could a SW fan not like it? Han Solo's wisecracks should not be of primary importance. Without these mainstream qualities, I think it actually makes the PT better in some ways. It's like a more pure version of SW.

    Also, I have found that people attach more importance to certain things that were not meant to have much importance. For instance, the japoor snippet that Anakin gives Padme is only important to each of their CHARACTERs , NOT the story. So they get mad when those things arent expanded upon. They mistakingly attach more importance to things that are
  5. 800-pound_ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2002
    star 2
    nice post! well-said!

    cheers!
  6. DarthVegas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
    Plain and simple, TPM was an awful movie with great potential.

    'nuff said.
  7. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Well, I think one reason for the backlash is mispercieved contradictions in the story of SW. When people saw TPM, people got all bent out of shape when it appeared that Yoda did not teach Obiwan. Luckily, Lucas later explained this. People need to have more faith in Lucas's ability to cover all the plot holes and preventing any contradictions. Lucas is not a stupid man. In my opinion, he is one of the world's greatest geniouses. Every potential contradiction that you have thought of, you can bet Lucas has thought of it.


    I'm sorry, but Lucas created more problems in trying to be "clever" and "fresh." He had a very simple task before him, tell a straightforward story and that was that. He isn't clever or deep enough for twists and large scale deceptions, he's a straightforward man that needs to stick to straightforward filmmaking.

    The inconsistencies created in the first movie can only be rationalized with the whole "Certain Point of View" angle. Ironic, since that was originally meant by Lucas to be a one-time line to cover up for a single conversation back in Star Wars; now he needs to depend on that to save the entire Prequel Trilogy from becoming one big convoluted mess.

    LUCAS: "It is consistent, you know, from a...uhh...certain point of view." *waves hand*

    FAN A: "Yes...it is consistent...from a certain point of view..."

    FAN B: "You weak-minded fool! That's an old Jedi Mind Trick!"

    Also, Durwood made a good point in another thread that people were expecting TPM to be BETTER than the OT. WHY WOULD YOU WANT THAT???


    Not so, I can agree that the hype building up to this movie was absurd, but once the hooplah died down, all that's left is the film and the gaping holes that are there. One only has to look to see them, they aren't very hard to miss. In the end, with the passing of the initial downer from the Great Star Wars High, were this at least a decent Star Wars film, I assure you, there would be no rifts in the Star Wars fan communities.

    This is a 12 hour story. It would incredibally suck if the first chapter was the best chapter. It was never GL's intention to make TPM better than EMPIRE. If your watching the saga in order, it would suck to have the best chapter first. It would suck for the first 3 to be better than the second 3. THat just wouldnt make sense if it happened that way.


    ...

    Okay.

    ...

    So, thematically, Lucas held back and made these movies underwhelming intentionally? So as not to overshadow the first three? Then why didn't that philosophy cross over into the realm of Special Effects? If he were thinking that, then why not be at least consistent? Why hold back on the writing, plot, and character development but completely blow the other films out of the water with massive land battles, CGI stormtroopers, CGI Yoda, CGI Jar Jar, CGI Jake Lloyd (Okay, I made that one up, but it's possible :p ) and more? Why is that okay? If he were following that mentality, he would be using rickety old Muppets for all the CGI characters and have spray painted styrofoam for asteroids in the Obi-wan chase scene.

    Another thing is that people need to keep in mind that this is part of a 12 hour story. The 12 hour story is more important than the individual movie. I would rather have 6 mediocre films that make up an awesome 12 hour story, than 6 awesome films that make up a mediocre 12 hour story.


    How about having six awesome films that make up an epic 12 hour story? In actuality, Lucas isn't even thinking about the twelve hour story, he's just looking at it chapter by chapter, making these films with his "Eh, it's good enough attitude," and using some PR to say it's all intentional. Were he thinking about the entire story, he would have the entire story written with complete screenplays, not going into principle photography without a completed script. That may have worked back in the 80s, but trilogies are done differently now.

    [b
  8. DarthVegas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
    Well said. I look forward to the conclusion...
  9. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    >>>>He isnt clever enough for deep for twists and large scale deceptions. He's a straightforward man that needs to stick with straightforward filmaking.<<<<<<<<<<

    I disagree.

    >>>>>>The inconsistenies created in teh first movie can only be rationalized by the certain point of view argument.<<<<<<<<

    What certain point of view? There is no certain point of view that is needed because there are no inconsistencies. Its that simple.

    >>>>>>>>>In the end, with the passing of the initial downer from the Great Star Wars High, were this at least a decent Star Wars film, I assure you, there would be no rifts in the Star Wars fan communities.<<<<<<<

    And I saw a terrific SW film at the end.

    >>>>>>>>>So, thematically, Lucas held back and made these movies underwhelming intentionally? So as not to overshadow the first three? Then why didn't that philosophy cross over into the realm of Special Effects? If he were thinking that, then why not be at least consistent? Why hold back on the writing, plot, and character development but completely blow the other films out of the water with massive land battles, CGI stormtroopers, CGI Yoda, CGI Jar Jar, CGI Jake Lloyd (Okay, I made that one up, but it's possible ) and more? Why is that okay? If he were following that mentality, he would be using rickety old Muppets for all the CGI characters and have spray painted styrofoam for asteroids in the Obi-wan chase scene. <<<<<<<<<

    This is exactly why I hope the AE rumors are true. But you also need to realize that he is creating worlds in the PT that have much more scope and detail, so he needs these effects for the PT. The technology in the PT is better because the galaxy is in a time of prosperity right before a great intragalactic civil war, so it makes sense that the effects arent as good in the OT. (They still wont be quite as good in the AE, but hopefully a lot better.)

    >>>>>>>>How about having six awesome films that make up an epic 12 hour story? In actuality, Lucas isn't even thinking about the twelve hour story, he's just looking at it chapter by chapter, making these films with his "Eh, it's good enough attitude," and using some PR to say it's all intentional. Were he thinking about the entire story, he would have the entire story written with complete screenplays, not going into principle photography without a completed script. That may have worked back in the 80s, but trilogies are done differently now. <<<<<<<<

    Well, so far I have seen 5 awesome films.

    >>>>>>>Nobody expects Shakespeare out of these films, though it would help achieve the epic nature of the story and the grandeur of it. The strength came not from the cheesy dialogue alone, it was a combination of the hokey dialogue with a cast that was ACTUALLY CHARISMATIC. They were able to deliver the hokey lines with a hint of flair. <<<<<<<

    "Not this ship sister." - I dont see a hint of flair in that. Just a hokey line.

    >>>>>>>By that rationale, you have just proven that Jar Jar was completely unnecessary. Besides, you said this makes up an entire 12 hour story, so this isn't a tragedy, it's the first part of an entire tale that on an uplifting note; since we're not supposed to look at the PT on it's own, the way it ends does not matter<<<<<<<<

    Jar Jar is necessary. He is the wise fool, and he is essential for me in creating the impressive cognitive dissanance in TPM. His lighthearted image of a character that tries to be funny but is not helps cover up the sinister plot underneath, and the dark destiny that is ahead. It is exactly these lighthearted images that make TPM all the more chilling.

    >>>>>>>Is that why Lucas was bashing us over the head with the hammer labeled HUMOR when he introduced us to Jar Jar? Or how about the inserted humor and wit of Obi-wan in AOTC? If the humor was "tuned down," Obi wouldn't be cutting one-liners at the most inappropriate places, like before execution or while chasing down a would-be assassin<<<<<<

    As I said, Jar Jar was for cognitive dissanance, and I was talking about the kind of humor b/t Liea and Han,
  10. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I disagree.


    Ah, but it is true. He gained this reputation of being a master of plot twists when in actuality, they were mostly attempts to cover holes he had written himself into in prior movies. He isn't a master writer, he isn't even a good writer. He was lucky enough to have had people around him competent enough to bring his "vision" to life.

    What certain point of view? There is no certain point of view that is needed because there are no inconsistencies. Its that simple.


    Oh, like:

    - Anakin being a great pilot when Obi-wan met him, even though he was only a little kid. CPOV Argument: But he was a podracer, so from a certain point of view Obi-wan was right.

    - Obi-wan saying that he was amazed at how strong the Force was with Anakin, even though we see that it was Qui-gon who was amazed with the boy. CPOV Argument: But the kid destroyed a Trade Federation ship on his own, so from a certain point of view it's true because as soon as he heard about it, Obi-wan must have been amazed with Anakin.

    - Obi-wan saying he took it upon himself to train Anakin, thinking he could do as good a job as Yoda when it was Qui-gon that took it upon himself to train Anakin, and when he was dying, Obi-wan got the boy passed on to him. CPOV Argument: But when he did get the boy, he insisted that he would train the boy without the Council's consent, so from a certain point of view it's true, even though Obi-wan was against the boy and had no faith in him and took the boy not out of his own initiative, but rather obligation, he still persisted in training him.

    I could go on all day.

    And I saw a terrific SW film at the end.


    Yes, when those films have clearly caused a breach in a once solid fanbase with their shoddy work. Well, whatever.

    This is exactly why I hope the AE rumors are true.


    And if they are, it is further proof that Lucas has no idea what he's doing. Rather than create a series of movies that meet up to what he and other people created twenty odd years ago, he'd rather cover his butt by going into movies he supposedly "finished" in '97 and tweak those so they can agree with what he did today. If he has any shred of dignity, those rumors better be false because he will only be causing further damage to a once classic and highly-valued series of films.

    But you also need to realize that he is creating worlds in the PT that have much more scope and detail, so he needs these effects for the PT. The technology in the PT is better because the galaxy is in a time of prosperity right before a great intragalactic civil war, so it makes sense that the effects arent as good in the OT. (They still wont be quite as good in the AE, but hopefully a lot better.)


    So the theme explains the difference in the effect qualities? Because the Galaxy is in a civil war the effects aren't as good?

    ...

    Rrrrriight...

    So, that ideology will pretty much be thrown out if he does those Ulitmate Expanded Super-ity Duper Really Really Awesome Ultra Magical Deluxe Special Editions because the effects will be "brought up to par" with that of the PT; which has amazing effects because it takes place in a time of "prosperity." (Which I never really saw; since everything's almost exactly the same as in the OT, only nicer looking.)

    Well, so far I have seen 5 awesome films.


    Really? Where are they? So far, we've been treated to three awesome films from the late-70s early-80s and two amazingly underwhelming movies that had success because of name recognition. What movies were you watching? ;)

    "Not this ship sister." - I dont see a hint of flair in that. Just a hokey line.


    More flair in that than "Uh, well, negotiations with a lightsaber."

    Jar Jar is necessary. He is the wise fool, and he is essential for me in creating the impressive cognit
  11. Agent_Smith_ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    It was necessary... in parts...
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