Was the Phantom Menace neccessary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Grizham1, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. DarthVegas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
    Darth Torgo you are so right...

    I think TPM could have been scaled down to half the time to show the more important elements that would tie the prequels together.

    Even ANH had items that tied the OT together. Ex. is the imperial meeting where Vader chokes the officer in front of Tarkin. The Emperor was an enigma back then and was never seen, but at least they mentioned him.

    Fast forward to TPM... Sifo-WHO?
  2. Qui Gon Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 1999
    star 1
    Some of it was definitely. There is no denying that showing Palpatine's first step to power was necessary. It was imperative to know how he manipulated things to become Chancellor.

    Anakin's early life on Tatooine and his relationship with the Queen were necessary.

    Jar Jar and his bloated role in Episode I was entirely wrong. Obi-Wan was a blip on the radar screen in comparison to his role in AOTC. And what about the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force? Are we going to see more in depth of discussion of that?

    TPM, for me, is definitely necessary, but on the other hand, some of it was not. A shame because it onle leaves us wondering what if?
  3. DarthVegas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah and what a big what if it is.

    So many cool things could have been inserted to tie the prequels together, but we had to watch a bumbling idiot tell unfunny jokes.
  4. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    He compared along the lines that no one liked to the hobbit because it was a stupid kids story but as time has gone by the hobbit has become a classic piece of children's literature, I suppose he thinks tpm is going to do the same maybe or be viewed in the same light, I don't know which.

    Wrong way to view TPM, but let's work on this. Suppose Tolkien wrote the epic Lord of The Rings first and then announced he would write a prequel about how the One Ring was discovered.

    *Lurking takes his copy of LOTR off the shelf*

    Now, suppose we take one chapter for this...*turns pages* ah yes, "The Council of Elrond". Suppose during this chapter, when Bilbo related his tale, he said something like this:

    "I found the ring. Gollum called it his precious, called me a thief for stealing it."

    And blah blah blah. And suppose somewhere in this chapter, Bilbo also said:

    "I used the ring to confront that dragon, Smaug! I taunted him into revealing his weakness!"

    Now, from that, those awaiting the prequel (which Tolkien announced would be called "The Hobbit") would reasonably assume the following things (among others) would happen:

    -Bilbo would find the One Ring
    -Bilbo would bravely confront Smaug

    But, lo and behold, on the day this "The Hobbit" was published:

    -Bilbo didn't find the ring! Thorin did! Thorin had the contest with the Gollum! Thorin was the one who discovered that the ring could render one invisible! *Gasp* Bilbo was just along for the ride, and only had the ring since Thorin on his deathbed insisted good ol Baggins have it. For most of the tale, Bilbo was not around, it was Thorin Thorin Thorin.

    -What's this...Bilbo didn't confront Smaug at all! No no! Indeed, he just stumbled around Smaug, hardly two paragraphs, no confronting around at all!!! And he certainly didn't find out Smaug's weakness. Instead, Bard accidently shot an arrow which pearced Smaug!

    See what I'm getting at? In ROTJ, Ben said:

    "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    In ANH, Ben said:

    "He didn't want you following old Obi Wan on some damn idealistic crusade like your father did."

    (my own emphasis)

    From two prequel movies, those statements are contradicted again and again.

    That's how you compare "The Hobbit" and TPM, kiddies: if "The Hobbit" was made after LOTR. But it was not, so it's a pretty lousy comparison.

    Just MHO :D
  5. ElfStar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2001
    star 4
    [face_laugh] at Lurking!

    Don't forget the part where Bombur steps in poop, and then gets farted on by a troll!
  6. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    :D :D :D You like it? Probably only Tolkien fanatics will appreciate that post ;)

    Bombur eh....hmmm...I'd select Balin, but Bombur it is!

    :D
  7. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I have heard before that the target audience for The Phantom Menace was 12-13 year old boys, since when does starwars have a target audience?

    Since ever. It was always targeted at the younger teen male audience. No matter how much TPM-haters want to make the OT into a series of movies aimed at adults, so as to "set TPM apart," it was not aimed at adults. Some elements were added so adults could enjoy it too, but its target audience was always kids.

    I am sick of hearing about how TPM was a "little kid" movie. It had some juvenile elements, but the same is true of the OT. It was not saturated with juvenile elements. It had one fart joke and one poop joke, though to hear the bashers talk it was filled with those sort of jokes.

    How was TPM a "little kid" movie? I keep hearing that said but no one ever explains it.
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    TPM, for me, is definitely necessary, but on the other hand, some of it was not. A shame because it onle leaves us wondering what if?

    Some parts of every movie in the SW saga are not necessary. Can you honestly tell me that every scene in every movie in the OT was necessary to move the story forward?

    How come TPM is held to a different standard?

    Do you consider it unnecessary only because you don't like it, and Lucas didn't follow your personal design for Episode I?
  9. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot."

    When Obi Wan first met Anakin, he'd just won a pod race. Pod racing involves flying a pod. People who fly things are called pilots.

    "But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him."

    Where is this contradicted?

    "I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Obi Wan Anakin's training upon himself. He did the training that Yoda normally does, thinging he could do it just as well he was wrong.

    Maybe a better speech would have been "When I was first introduced to him, your father was already a great racingpilot. But before I even met him, when I took a sample of his blood and checked it for midichlorians, I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. When my master who wanted to train him (because he thought he was the Chosen One) died, I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him in the areas that Yoda normally teaches young Jedi just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Maybe not...


    ANH, Ben said:

    "He didn't want you following old Obi Wan on some damnfool idealistic crusade like your father did."


    I always assumed that this is to do with Obi Wan being "General Kenobi", and Anakin being a pilot in the clone wars. (ie. Episode III)

    (Didn't Anakin go off on a bit of a damnfool idealistic crusade following Obi Wan to Geonosis?)
  10. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    How was TPM a "little kid" movie? I keep hearing that said but no one ever explains it

    "Yippie!"

    "Ouch time!"

    *Jar Jar falls and stumbles*

    *fart*

    Jar Jar falls and stumbles*

    *villains with the cunning of Pinky and the Brain*

    *little kid accidently wins the day*

    *no Gungans can be seen dead, we must shelter little kiddies from such things. At least Ewoks, we get to see the poor guy trying to wake his friend.*

    *Did I mention Jar Jar falling and stumbling around*

    [face_mischief]
  11. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Maybe a better speech would have been "When I was first introduced to him, your father was already a great racingpilot. But before I even met him, when I took a sample of his blood and checked it for midichlorians, I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. When my master who wanted to train him (because he thought he was the Chosen One) died, I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him in the areas that Yoda normally teaches young Jedi just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Yup, that will be the new Ben speech in the Ultra Edition of ROTJ! And old Ben will be CGI-d so that Ewan with make-up can play old Ben. It's what GL always intended!

    [face_mischief]
  12. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    Um, we see alot of dead gungans in TPM. During the first long shot of the droid marching towards the gungans, we see the entire front line shot down. We see dead gungans in TPM, just not in the foreground.



    ST
  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    "Yippie!"

    "Yahoo!" and "Yeeha!" shouted by grown men in the OT.

    "Ouch time!"

    Huh?

    *Jar Jar falls and stumbles*
    *fart*
    *Jar Jar falls and stumbles*


    Yeah, so? Those take up maybe five seconds of time in a two hour movie. That you focus solely on them and act like they dominate the movie says more about you than it does about the movie.

    *villains with the cunning of Pinky and the Brain*

    Er...Palpatine had the cunning of Pinky and the Brain? You mean the way he manipulated everyone while still appearing to be a good guy wasn't cunning?

    *little kid accidently wins the day*

    Little kid who is the main character in the PT and also happens to be the Chosen One.

    *no Gungans can be seen dead, we must shelter little kiddies from such things. At least Ewoks, we get to see the poor guy trying to wake his friend.*

    There were plenty of dead Gungans. I'm sorry you didn't see blood spurting everywhere and decapitations and disembowelments like you probably wanted to. Oh, and you probably complain about the cutting away from the Tusken slaughter in AOTC. You know what SW needs is GRAPHIC VIOLENCE! We had a ton of that stuff in the OT...didn't we?

    *Did I mention Jar Jar falling and stumbling around*

    Yes, twice. You sure are obsessed with Jar Jar. I can ignore him if he gets really annoying; I wonder why bashers can't do likewise?
  14. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
  15. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    just not in the foreground

    My point exactly! Can't put those in the foreground, it'll upset poor kiddies. Let 'em grow up thinking that no one die in wars, and that there'll always be a purple singing dino who'll always help them!

    [face_mischief]

    And the 'Pinky and the Brain' comment was directed to the ummm...I can't spell them! Neimodians? You know, the Trade Federation guys. They come complete with funny accents to amuse the kids.

    Just MHO :D
  16. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    My point exactly! Can't put those in the foreground, it'll upset poor kiddies. Let 'em grow up thinking that no one die in wars, and that there'll always be a purple singing dino who'll always help them!

    What?! You're complaining for the sake of complaining.

    And the 'Pinky and the Brain' comment was directed to the ummm...I can't spell them! Neimodians? You know, the Trade Federation guys. They come complete with funny accents to amuse the kids.

    Let's see...the cowardly Trade Federation, who were being manipulated/controlled by Palpatine...

    I don't see what your point is. Again, you seem to be complaining for the sake of complaining.

  17. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    I'll try to illustrate my points better (cut me a break, English ain't my first language :p)

    Complain about Gungans: again, the deaths aren't noticable. No amtter how childlike Endor was, the movie didn't shrink away from potraying the horrors of war. I feel (and yes, this is just an opinion, feel free to disagree :)) that TPM failed to illustrate the aforementioned horrors of war, unlike the other movies (AOTC included, at the very least we see Mr Dumb Jedi shot by Jango [face_mischief] though other dead Jedi can be seen dying as well).

    Complain about villains: again, if they're manipulated, fine. But their behaviour...panicking around, always fumbling the plans. It's just a wee bit cartoonish. Again, my opnion.

    Just MHO :D
  18. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Complain about Gungans: again, the deaths aren't noticable. No amtter how childlike Endor was, the movie didn't shrink away from potraying the horrors of war.

    By showing exactly one dead Ewok? The dead Gungans were there. I don't understand why they need to be in your face before you'll notice them. I guess a lot of dead Gungans don't count as showing the horrors of war. Should we have seen them being blown to pieces?

    I feel (and yes, this is just an opinion, feel free to disagree ) that TPM failed to illustrate the aforementioned horrors of war,

    Actually, to be technical, it wasn't a war but a battle. Besides which, the movies aren't about the horrors of war. When did we see the horrors of war in ANH? Indeed, one of the complaints about it was that it made war look like fun.

    unlike the other movies (AOTC included, at the very least we see Mr Dumb Jedi shot by Jango though other dead Jedi can be seen dying as well).

    I didn't see any dying Jedi. I saw a lot of dead Jedi on the ground, like there were a lot of dead Gungans.

    Complain about villains: again, if they're manipulated, fine. But their behaviour...panicking around, always fumbling the plans. It's just a wee bit cartoonish. Again, my opnion.

    And again, I think you are complaining for the sake of complaining, and trying to make the movie fit into your opinion that it was juvenile and kiddie.
  19. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Mr Dumb Jedi. Aww c'mon, how could you miss Mr Dumb Jedi. He's like the Ewok in ROTJ: see, my standards ain;t that high. Just one is enough but one good moment is better than a movie lenght of not-so-good stuff.

    When did we see the horrors of war in ANH?

    ANH clearly showed those pilots being shot down. No fleeting glances of planes blowing up, no sugar coating, no "not in the foreground". I'm sure every SW fan can remember Red leader's last cry before he crashed:

    "Get set for your attack run! Yaaaaaaaaaah!!!"

    Or that other guy:

    "They came from behiiind!!!"

    Or the poor guy who's last words were, unfortunately:

    "Loosen up!!!"

    :p What a way to go. My point is: they were shown being killed, and not in a graphic John Woo sort of way. Done with elegance and style.

    Just MHO :D
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Mr Dumb Jedi. Aww c'mon, how could you miss Mr Dumb Jedi.

    No, who is Mr. Dumb Jedi?

    ANH clearly showed those pilots being shot down. No fleeting glances of planes blowing up, no sugar coating, no "not in the foreground". I'm sure every SW fan can remember Red leader's last cry before he crashed:

    "Get set for your attack run! Yaaaaaaaaaah!!!"


    I don't.


    What a way to go. My point is: they were shown being killed, and not in a graphic John Woo sort of way. Done with elegance and style.

    Uh...yeah. So in order for death to affect you, you need to see the person shot down? Otherwise the movie failed and it's a juvenile little kid movie?
  21. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Mr Dumb Jedi (forgot his name, I'll try lurking in the AOTC forum for that if you want :)) is the guy who got shot by Jango. Pathetic really, but I like the fact that his death was shown.

    And to answer your question: it's not just death, It's a genuine sense of danger. Other than the duel (which I will never ever bash, except perhaps the ending, even then if I;m really in a basher mood :p) there was no sense of danger to the heroes. Jar jar can be as clumsy as he wants, nothing will happen. In the words of little Ani: "Yippie!"

    With regards to the Gungan battle, I sense more danger in 'Home Alone' than I ever did with that battle :p

    And hey, if you can't remember how well the OT potrayed the horrors of war, watch 'em again. I'm willing to watch TPM again if you'll point out to me what I should be watching for, with regards to the grievances I listed.

    Hmmm? Deal?

    ;)
  22. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    "the horrors of war"?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to save that kind of imagery for the actual galactic civil war, rather than a diversionary battle?
  23. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    It was still a battle, whatever it's nature. Why sugar coat it?
  24. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Mr Dumb Jedi (forgot his name, I'll try lurking in the AOTC forum for that if you want ) is the guy who got shot by Jango. Pathtic really, but I like the fact that his death was shown.

    Ah, that guy. Did you like that his death was shown because he was dumb?

    And to answer your question: it's not just death, It's a genuine sense of danger. Other than the duel (which I will never ever bash, except perhaps the ending, even then if I;m really in a basher mood ) there was no sense of danger to the heroes.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I mean, we know the heroes won't die, because they have to be in the next movie (and in the case of some of them, the next trilogy).

    With regards to the Gungan battle, I sense more danger in 'Home Alone' than I ever did with that battle

    The dead Gungans weren't enough to indicate to you that there was danger in that battle?

    And hey, if you can't remember how well the OT potrayed the horrors of war, watch 'em again.

    I did. Last week. Aside from ESB, which makes combat look very uninviting during the Hoth scenes, I failed to get a sense of "This shows the horrors of war." More like, "These are fun movies for the kid in all of us, although they do have some serious undertones."
  25. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    It was still a battle, whatever it's nature. Why sugar coat it?

    Sugar coat it? I don't understand what it is you want. It showed dead Gungans. Why do you need to see Gungans killed up close before you think something isn't "sugar coated"?
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