Was the Phantom Menace neccessary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Grizham1, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. Empress Palpatine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 1
    Blatant generalizations! how nice! spare me your stereotypical bashers are evil rhetoric shelley if you don?t mind..

    Oh, just like the blatant generalizations of "gushers" in JenX's enlightening post the previous page? Whatever.

    And where in Shelley's posts did she ever say that bashers were evil? Don't put words in her mouth.

    Nothing in any of your nice anecdotal stories ever, happened in any of the theaters I was in, and I think I qualify as a "basher" personal stories are always open to question,

    In case you didn't notice, Shelley was being sarcastic. If you didn't get that, there is no hope for you.

    Name the good things tpm did for starwars if you don't mind I"d like to see what you Shelley think was redeemable concerning tpm. Then we can have a nice civil discussion about it.

    Why don't YOU name the horrible, terrible things TPM did for Star Wars, if you don't mind. I'd like to see what you think was so awful concerning TPM. And while you're at it, go back to grade school and learn how to type. Your grammar is atrocious.

    TPM wasn't the best movie ever made. Not even close. It's my least favorite SW movie, but I don't think it sucked.
  2. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    And why do people keep refering to Anakin's Immaculate conception? If the Catholic God and the fall of Adam don't exist in the Star Wars Universe, everybody's conception was immaculate.

    OK. Anakin's fatherless conception. Or maybe parthenogenesis exists in the GFFA.

    Thanks, Empress Palpatine. :)
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I don't think Basher's are evil, or even bad. They are just really dismissive.
  4. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Empress Palpitine, where exactly did I say anything about "gushers" in my post? Your points about putting words in other people's mouths would carry a great deal more weight if you didn't do exactly the same thing.

  5. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    Its offical now I'm hopeless
    I put words in people's mouth's
    My grammararar is horrible
    I need to go back to grammar school
    What a crock of S***

    Yeah she was being sarcastic, how nice, I didn't know she needed someone else to defend her own actions, but hey what are friends for? JenX's post is about as pointless as Shelley's both of them aren't relevant to the topic at hand. So back to the topic

    Things I take issue with in tpm
    1.) Jar-Jar
    2.) Jake Lloyd
    3.) Obi-Wan treated like a child
    4.) Chinese accents for the Neimodians (sp)
    5.) Bad Dialogue/Acting
    6.) Midicholrians (sp)
    7.) The entire Gungan race
    8.) Fart/Poop jokes
    9.) Marketing squarely directed at one target audience; kids
    10.) A story based on a trade dispute?!?!?
  6. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    Ever going to list one for me shelley?
  7. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    I_Am_Kit_Fisto, you've never seen anyone walk out on a movie before it's done? I find that hard to believe. I've seen this many times and have done it a few. (Judge Dread comes to mind! BARF) I saw that flick in the movies because I liked the comic, but once I heard Stallone was in it, I was already alerted to the suck-factor. Still, I couldn't endure it anymore and walked out about half-way through, I guess.

    Yes, people DO walk out of bad movies and go try to enjoy themselves, talk, have a nice dinner, rather than enduring what they find to be garbage. Sitting in a darkened theatre suffering through crap is hardly "getting your money's worth."

    Trust me. The folks I watched TPM with weren't "going for concessions"...they were heading for the hills! A couple (young 20's, I say) right in front of me, literally groaned at the virgin birth mention, then laughed. Then, I heard quite clearly the guy say "Let's get out of here." The girl didn't seem to protest a bit.

    By the time the movie got to Coursant, the theatre audience looked a lot thinner. I have no "agenda" to lie about this. I dislike TPM, but if the audience was jumping up and down clapping and cheering, I would admit it (then probably call them "easily entertained") but, they didn't.

    As far as walking out on a bad movie goes: my advice is...DO IT! If I'm with friends at a terrible flick and we can't take it anymore, we go out to eat and talk about how lousy it was and usually have a great time. It's much better than wasting 2 hours of your life watching some Stallone flick! ;)
  8. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Ever going to list one for me shelley?

    One what?
  9. Empress Palpatine Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 1
    JenX, you're right, your post said nothing about gushers. I apologize for that and for coming off more harsh than I intended to; I need to start taking my own advice. :)

    Its offical now I'm hopeless
    I put words in people's mouth's
    My grammararar is horrible
    I need to go back to grammar school
    What a crock of S***


    I'm glad you finally realized that. Sorry that you take offense on that, but the truth hurts, doesn't it?

    Things I take issue with in tpm

    Oh, goody! We finally get to see your reasons for hating the movie. Yay!

    1.) Jar-Jar

    What about Jar Jar? Be specific.

    2.) Jake Lloyd

    Again, be specific.

    3.) Obi-Wan treated like a child

    When was he ever treated like a child? I thought he was supposed to be Obi-Wan's APPRENTICE.

    4.) Chinese accents for the Neimodians (sp)

    And how is this different from British accents for most of the Imperials in the OT?

    5.) Bad Dialogue/Acting

    Examples, please.

    6.) Midicholrians (sp)

    What about the midichlorians?

    7.) The entire Gungan race

    What about them?

    8.) Fart/Poop jokes

    Yeah, they were lame, but so what? They took up about 5 seconds of the entire movie! Who cares about them?

    9.) Marketing squarely directed at one target audience; kids

    And how is this different from the OT?

    10.) A story based on a trade dispute?!?!?

    What did you EXPECT? A full-scale galactic war? Did you forget that TPM was set during PEACETIME?

    I'm disappointed in you. Your "reasons", if you can call them that, are pathetic and vague. At least elaborate on them if you want to get a real discussion going; don't come up with just a list.
  10. DarthVegas Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2000
    star 4
    Hey Feral,

    You're not alone.

    The person I went with to see TPM fell asleep next to me.

    Several people walked out throughout the duration of the movie. Original Star Wars fans? Probably not, but who knows.

    Instead of focusing on Gushers vs. Bashers, let's focus that people have an opinion that some like and some don't.

    Everyone has a right to not like TPM and still be a Star Wars fan. (GASP! IMPOSSIBLE!) No. Reality.

    There's a million and one valid reasons why so many people were dissapointed with TPM. If you want, you can start from the initial screenplay (which if it wasn't written by Lucas for his production company would have been sent back for rewrites more than thrice).

    To say if it was neccessary, well... there's the argument, eh? There were some elements of character introductions and concepts that we probably needed, but for the most part, it is very difficult to connect TPM with AOTC, in my opinion. It doesn't flow like the movies of the OT. Even ANH to ESB.

    Bashers should respect Gushers for liking TPM for the simple fact that it's Star Wars (as long as they're not blind Lucas Worshipers).

    Gushers should respect Bashers for critizing a movie in which they have every right to since they dished out money to see 'the product'.

    So... I guess what I'm trying to say is... Be mindful of your feelings. Your thoughts can betray you.

    And now back to the regularly scheduled debate...
  11. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Yeah she was being sarcastic, how nice, I didn't know she needed someone else to defend her own actions,

    I didn't know a defense was needed at all. I can't read Empress Palpatine's mind, but I presume she wrote her post to spell out what you failed to recognize, despite its obviousness: that my post was sarcastic.
  12. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    A list of the good things in tpm
  13. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    For the Empress, you can't please everyone, I'll elaborate later tonight I suppose.
    As for having a real discussion, making comments about me before you preceed to try and dissect a short list of number problems is always a good way to keep a discussion going now isn't it?
  14. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Here's a list of good things in TPM. It's not exhaustive; I just figured I'd confine it to ten:

    1. It finally shows us what Obi Wan Kenobi talked about wistfully in TPM: the galaxy "before the dark times...before the Empire." Despite Obi Wan's nostalgia, we see that the galaxy was like a whited sepulchre...pristine on the outside, but underneath it was filled with corruption.

    2. It shows what Anakin Skywalker was like as a little kid, thus adding a great deal of poignancy to his eventual fall, redemption, and death. Anakin didn't start out bad; he was a nice kid who loved his mom. That adds resonance to his final scenes in ROTJ: it is sad that that cute kid ends up the scarred, dying man that Luke unmasks.

    3. Seeing Obi Wan as a Padawan. Up until then, we'd only seen him as an elderly, sedate Jedi Master. Now we see him as a young Padawan, and though he appears to be a strait-laced rules player, there is a great deal bubbling beneath the surface. We see him lose his master, and nearly be killed himself--but then draw on his Force powers and Jedi skills to beat Darth Maul.

    4. Qui Gon Jinn. A totally new character, but one who immediately fits in...he's a Jedi Master with a touch of rogue in him. And he's not afraid to put haughty people in their place, all with a twinkle in his eye.

    5. Amazing new worlds, portrayed with equally amazing special effects, which are well-placed within natural settings.

    6. Palpatine. Really, I don't need to say more, but I will. Ian McDiarmid has a ball playing the evil Palpatine as a cunning, subtle schemer who heartlessly manipulates the young Queen and sacrifices his own people in his quest for power.

    7. Padme and Anakin's first meeting. It is arguably the cog around which the whole saga ultimately pivots (Anakin Skywalker meets the future mother of his children) and by rights should be a big, dramatic scene, but instead it plays out gently and undramatically.

    8. Padme's interactions with Jar Jar. No one likes Jar Jar, not even Anakin, who, being a kid, should love the goofy overgrown frog. However, Padme is quite fond of him (probably because he's from her home planet); she smiles at him, laughs at his clownishness, helps him when he gets his hand stuck in the exhaust vent of Anakin's pod, and confides in him when her situation seems hopeless.

    9. The lightsaber duel. Great music, great editing, just great all around.

    10. Qui Gon's funeral, in particular the long shot of Anakin, Obi Wan, Padme, and Palpatine: the four characters who will shape the story. Sheer brilliance. Lucas is a crappy director with no vision, eh? Ha!
  15. Any_kin__Skywalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Since,this has become a basher/gusher tread,I might as welll put in my 2 cence ,and give my bashes and my gushes for TPM & AOTC

    TPM(The bashes)
    1.Jake lloyd
    A truly terrible child actor,Haley Joel Osment would have fitted the part so much better.
    2.Fart/Poop Jokes
    The annoying things about these is that ppl always mention them,but I can't remember where they are.Guess they're one of those blink and you miss them things.
    3.Aniken's friends
    ,who r even worse actors then Jake Lloyd.
    4.Anakin saves the day.
    I didn't like how the boy who seem to be able to play anything ,wasn't able to figure out what the joystick did.
    5.C-3p0
    It would have been better if Anakin had built R2 and C3po was with padme's possee.

    TPM(Gushes)
    1.Palpatine manipulating
    I love how he plays everyone off against each other while staying completey innocent.
    2.Jar Jar Binks.
    He had so many funny moments and the character was used well,showing how oblivious he was,yet somehow innocent and wise.
    3.Qui-Gon Jinn
    a complicated character
    4.Watto
    So,single-minded ,and pround,yet lovable
    5.The imagery in the film.
    6.The plot being about a trade dispute.
    It was intriging how it showed how small things can effect the bigger picture.

    All in all,I think that TPM was a masterpiece which had a couple of small thing which detracted a little from it.

    I think it is one of the beat SW movies, and probably better then Aotc & ROTJ
  16. DarthHomer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2000
    star 5
    Personally, I would never trust the critical opinion of anyone who walks out on a film before the end.
    Then again, I'm usually good at avoiding films I know I won't enjoy. The only two films I've ever considered walking out on are Drop Dead Fred and The Spy Who Shagged Me, but I stayed to the bitter end just in case something funny happened :)
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I can list the bad things, it is easier.

    1) Ungrateful, selfish fans.

    I think that about covers it.
  18. YoungPadawanLearner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2002
    star 4
    If that's not asking for trouble, I don't know what is.
  19. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I can list the bad things, it is easier.

    1) Ungrateful, selfish fans.

    I think that about covers it.



    2 years and, as True Jedi would say, you still have yet to bring anything new to discuss to this forum. Why do YOU bother posting here?
  20. YoungPadawanLearner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2002
    star 4
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I figured if your points weren't going to change, I didn't need to change mine.
  22. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    My VIEWS have changed. Or do you forget how I supported you on the significance of the Big Fish? My views on CGI have changed. Recently I posted many positive things about it in the Defense Force. In fact, many a great discussion we have had with NEW and interesting ideas have been shared in the Basher's sanctuary and other threads. YOU, on the other hand, are like a broken record. "I am so sick of whiney fans", "You are all so ungrateful", "You can't see the significance of this and that", "you can't handle Jar Jar", "It's Lucas' baby". Why don't you come up with an original idea or thread for a change and stop trolling in other people's threads.
  23. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    Alright then Shelley let's go through your list.

    1.)Yes its a nice galaxy, a bit too nice. The technology in tpm makes the technology in the ot look dated. Everything is shiny, nice, etc., given I suppose that's your point that its supposed to be nice and whatnot, but the thing is everything is too nice, at least I think.

    2.)If Anakin works for you as a kid then that's fine, I just prefer adults I suppose, and if their had been another actor besides lloyd playing anakin I probably wouldn't have a problem with the role being played by a child.

    3.) I disagree here, all Obi-Wan seems to have to do in this movie is nood his head and say, "yes master." Given he's still rather young, I never understood why he needed to be a jedi in training, and couldn't be out on his own like in aotc, which I love him in b/c of his freedom to kick-ass so to speak. As for nearly being killed himself, I was hardly worried when he was fighting maul, since I know he was going to live, but it was good to see him fighting in his prime.

    4.) Qui-Gonn Jinn, mixed feelings here, he seems to be the only character other than Maul/Palpy that has any depth written into his character in this movie. Some of his lines are a bit corny, but its starwars so no problem. I don't understand why he takes jar-jar along, neither does Obi-Wan, no one likes the stupid creature, but he's ok I suppose.

    5.) Agreed

    6.) Right on

    7.) The scene was ok, until Anakin asked her if she was an angel....... then I remembered I was watching Jake Lloyd attempt to act ughhhhhh. Also the age difference is very apparent here which was kind of odd.

    8.) I loathe Jar-Jar, so if you see something btwn him and Padme, I can't really fathom what it is, their interactions? I think that's just her nature to try and be nice, and she's like that with everyone, not just Jar-Jar

    9.)The lightsaber duels/music were easily the highlights of the movie, both excellent. As for editing, I think it was subpar at best, watching to documentary on the dvd and seeing george digitially change an actor's performance was a bit disturbing to say the least, and the scene where anakin and qui gonn are running in the desert for no reason at all is bad editing period.

    10.) The funeral scene was nice, I just wished I cared about the characters more to enjoy the scene, the movie didn't really do that for me, that is give me characters to care about, I cared about characters like obi-wan that I know about from the ot, but hardly anyone in that movie really held my interest.
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Actually Hawk I do remember that change of thought and unprecedented support for my opinion.

    In return, I dropped the idea that Vader was not going to be shown to be Anakin clearly until ESB.

    What else did you change your mind on?
  25. Grizham1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2001
    star 2
    Now for the Empress

    1.) Jar-Jar, who is this stupid character? After about watching him for 5 minutes I was wondering what George was smoking when he wrote this guy, he's stupid, clumsy, ugly, annoying, and has an aptitude for ruining any scene he appears in, ex.'s the gugan battle scene, where his antics distract me from the battle at hand, everytime something happens having to hear him scream about it, and his poo/fart jokes.

    2.) Jake Lloyd; this kid can't act. Maybe George wanted a clumsy kid who didn't nail his lines or was a bit naive, I don't know, this is another choice by George that I don't understand, he seems like a good kid yet his acting abililties are poor, another kid should have been choosen to play Anakin.

    3.)Obi-Wan does two things in tpm, whine to Qui-Gonn and say 'Yes master.' This guy is nothing like the old man in the ot, the Obi-Wan of aotc is exactly how I imagined he should have been in the pt, but that deals with the title of this thread really, I don't think this movie was neccessary it's a prequel to a prequel

    4.) The british accents are different b/c they're aren't fake! The neimodians had dubbed chinese accents, they spoke with british accents when the scenes were being filmed, this is an example of not racist stereotyping at work, but really an example of bad taste. The aliens should have spoken a different language like jabba did or left the british accents in I think. Also the imperials were all humans and modeled after the british navy it seems, I get the symbolism there, so where's the symbolism here? That Asians are all greedy traders? God I hope not

    5.) Every scene with Jar-Jar is an example of bad acting/dialogue, most scenes with Anakin including him leaving his mother, talking to padme for the first time, yelling yippee, destroying the droid control ship by accident. Padme comes off as completey unemotional (an ice queen really) and rather detached from reality in most of her scenes. Obi-Wan has little to act on, Qui-Gonn is ok, Maul has too few lines to make a big impact, Palpy is fine, The Neimodians are cardboard villians that wouldn't scare a toddler, and nearly everything else is computer generated.

    6.) Midocholrians- I suppose Gl decided that the force needed to be demystified, BAD MOVE. The force as kind of invisible yet all knowing/helping/etc., was wonderful, adding this quasi-evolutionistic style element to the mix didn't help the force's case at all. I remember reading on this board some people telling me that I would understand eventually in the next few movies about midocholrians place concerning the force, That's not going to happen, its obviously been abandoned which was a good move to prevent further confusion concerning the nature of the force.

    7.) The entire Gungan race-they're all uneducated, can barely speak (the ability to speak does not make you intelligent, point proven here) they're ugly, jump around like monkey's, look completely fake, and change their hatred of the humans in one second to love, please........

    8.)Fart/Poop jokes, I didn't know starwars used this kind of humor, it obviously doesn't look at aotc.

    9.) This movie is a children's movie, all of the other movies, aotc including is directed at all age groups, whereas this film is solely directed at children.

    10.) I don't know what I expected, but a trade dispute? yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn . Lucas seems much more able to handle the topic of religion than politics as illustrated by the differences in the ot/pt, or at least I think.

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