Was the Phantom Menace neccessary

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Grizham1, Jun 2, 2002.

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  1. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    Grizham1,

    "You will know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

    This is not from John 8:2
    Why dont you try John 8:32
  2. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    "Refusing the movie doesn't mean it wasn't offered to you. You cheat yourself out of a movie if you ask me."

    unless you love every movie you see, Go-Mer, you have just made the most nonsensical comment ive seen yet on these boards.

    "Star Wars doesn't need everyone to be fans. It can get by with those who are left over."

    why is it a good thing that TPM has dirven fans away from the saga? there, now you have yet another opportunity to sidestep the question.
  3. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It is only driving away the "fans" who suddenly realize they aren't fans.
  4. DrEvazan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 4
    in other words TPM drove away fans.

    last time... why is this a good thing?

    its a simple question
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If they are driven away, then they aren't fans anymore.

    Problem solved.

    This is a good thing, becuase then the only people left will be people who like SW.
  6. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    "If they are driven away, then they aren't fans anymore."

    Why is that?


  7. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    If they suddenly renounce their fanship, then they aren't fans anymore right?
  8. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    Who says the renounce it? They jsut are appalled by it, and are driven away from TPM, there are other movies
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well then they are still fans.

    Can't understand why they would not like TPM, but they are fans if they say so.

    I am talking about the ones who are driven away completely. Not the ones who are only mildy put out by it.
  10. jaja7799 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2002
    star 1
    I see, well then youre right, i was put out over TPm, but ill live through JarJar and the fart jokes, as well as jakes acting.(I hope)
  11. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    This discussion looks all too familar.
  12. Master_Grover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2002
    star 2
    my 2 cents.

    TPM is like ANH.

    In ESB they couldve just told us that Luke was found by Obi Wan on tattoine and destroyed a death star.

    In AOTC they couldve just told us that Anakin was found by Qui Gon on tattoine and destroyed a droid control ship.

    Yet no one is complaining about the irrelevance of ANH. I dont get it.

    BTW, heya gomer, its me PruneF8ce.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Hey PruneF8ce, its good to see you over here.
  14. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
    Without ANH's huge unexpected box-office there never would've been TESB, ROTJ, TPM, or AOTC. I think that makes it pretty relevant! :p
  15. DarthTerrious Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 5
    Just a note on Anakin being 9 and to show that he is a good kid.

    I heard the view that as kids we are all good.

    Wrong, we are born good. But as we grow up and how we brought up by our parents determines whether we are good or bad. And at 9 i refuse to believe that we are all good children. In fact I know this to be false.
    When I was in middle school there were several 9 year old bullies and kids that had chips on their shoulders. And thes guys weren't very nice at all, especially to me.
    As it is I know that a child can learn alot from their parents and because of situatins which involves their parents can have problems such as jealousy of others.
    On the whole though most children at 9, would be yes good.

    And Anakin has been the product of good parenting, he has been taught well and it was shown in TPM. Thats the truth behind the tragedy that we se later on. He could have been a bully at 9 and that would have made his fall predictable. Thats why seeing Anakin as a child is crucial. And a good one at that.

    No one is born evil, but its how they are brought up and what happens around them in their enviroment which affects whether they are good or evil. So no not all nine year olds are good but of course they aren't all evil. There is a balance though and Anakin falls on the good side.
  16. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    This place seems familliar...

    It's like...
  17. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    I know this isn't a Christian forum, but according to the Bible, we are all BORN evil. I know that is not something we want to face, but it takes the responsibility of our own decisions and places them back on ourselves. We have no one or no thing to blame our bad choices on except our own wicked nature. When we make good choices, we actually overcome the evil within us.

    The point being that nine year old Anakin has nobody to blame his choices on except himself. Same thing with 20 year old Anakin for that matter.
  18. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    Since my thread was deemed redundant (I didn't know of this one's existence), I'm going to repost my two primary posts from that thread (for archival purposes) regarding the subject and hypotheticals as to what little TPM does contribute to the over-all saga thats essential can be integrated otherwise. The link below leads to my original thread.

    Retrospectively, was The Phantom Menace really necessary? (long post)

    While skimming through the annotated screenplays and various Lucas, Kurtz and misc quotes/hints we've gotten about both the PT prior to the mid 90's and insights into the character dynamics of the OT that were to be extrapolated into the PT, I started thinking about TPM and the rather detached feeling it has in relation to the other 4 films.

    That lead me to start wondering if TPM was really necassary to the Star Wars saga and if what it actually contained could have been presented through a storyline that was seemingly more connected to the overall story arc of SW ala AOTC.

    If one thinks about it, beyond character introductions (which can be inserted anywhere along the line) the only things of relevance to the SW story arc that occurs in TPM are Palpatine's election as Chancellor, Obi-wan's knighthood and subsequent taking of Anakin as his apprentice, Anakin's first meeting Amidala, the situation of Anakin's mother and, finally, the death of Qui-Gon. The rest of the film, like the invasion/blockade/freedom of Naboo, Darth Maul, Gungans and even the podrace to a degree have no direct relevance to any of the events in AOTC or the OT.

    Ok, so that breaks down what is essentially the meat of TPM and what it contributes to the saga overall- basicly what amounts to occurances that could be placed in many, many other situations. Now, for some of what I percieve to be problems in TPM that result in it's detached feeling from the rest of the saga, and how those problems seem to (so far at least) have harmed the the later film's execution:

    -Setting it ten years apart from the next chapter in it's particular trilogy contributes greatly to the detached feeling it has, and this also causes some other problems, such as the length of time Anakin spends away from his mother (despite the Jedi's position on relationships such as that, if they were able to identify that he was fearful of losing his mother and knew that fear was the path to the darkside, they should have taken measures after ten years to secure her well being so that that fear would not lead to anger...had the passage of time between TPM and AOTC been reduced to 2-5 years, their lack of action (given the complications of the Republic and Jedi procedures) could have been explained or seemed more reasonable. Now, if we reduce the amount of time between the two stories, that obviously affects the age of Anakin, which brings me to the next point:

    -Anakin's age in TPM. Now, don't get me wrong, I have no initial problems with a young Anakin and showing how he was innocent at a time and nor do I have any issues with Jake's acting, I think he did a satisfactory job given the dialogue he was to deliver.

    However, where this backfires is in his relationship to Amidala. At 9/10 years old, he's too young to have any sort of romantic spark between the characters. This ends up putting too much pressure on Episode 2 to develop the love story from start to end, resulting in what many have observed as a rushed feeling to that subplot.

    Had Anakin been older by say, 3 or 4 years, in TPM, he could have still been portrayed as an innocent kid, but something could have been hinted at between him and Amidala which could then be developed further in AOTC- much like what was done with Han and Leia in ANH and ESB. They established the relationship between Han and Leia in a subtle manner, and then let it blossom in ESB.

    -Obi-Wan Kenobi's character. Kenobi's character dynamic has been changed quite a bit since the 80's. His relationship with Yoda in TPM and, to a lesser degree, in AOTC is much mor
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Yes, it was very very neccessary.

    First of all, I think the reason you may think TPM doesn't seem as "attached" to the classic trilogy as AOTC is because TPM needs AOTC and episode III to attach itself to the classic trilogy. Even without Episodes II and III there are many direct connections that TPM has with the classic trilogy.

    Obviously, Anakin is the main focus of the entire saga. It imperative to show Anakin as the good man who was Luke's father before they could ever get into how he became an agent of evil. Without having this period where Anakin is as pure as the driven snow, there would be little reason to be happy about his final turnaround in ROTJ. Sure as it was without the prequels, it was very touching. But with TPM especially, it becomes a real tear-jerker.

    With Palpatine, there are a lot of important things aside from his election at the end of the movie. His manipulation of both the Trade Federation and the Naboo to manufacture a a situation that could be stalemated as long as it took to make Chancellor Vallorum look like an ass really adds substance to his line in ROTJ: "Everything that has transpired has been by my design." It may seem as though the whole invasion of Naboo and Darth Maul revealing the Sith's existence to the Jedi is nothing more than a Phantom Menace, it is intrinsically important to Palpatine's plan. It was his complete control over this situation that led to his eventual election.

    Obi-Wan goes through a character change before becoming a Jedi Knight that is just as important. He goes from a straight laced Padawan who would never question the Jedi Council to a free thinking Jedi Knight ready to train Anakin even if it meant defying the Council.

    Qui-Gon Jinn illustrates the concept of bucking the status quo in a way that seems justified. This contrasts with the apparent motivations of Count Dooku who is also bucking the status quo by creating a separatist movement. Eventually, Anakin himself will turn against everything he knows is good with all the intentions of doing what's "right". The length of time Anakin is separated from his mother will help to serve Anakin's decision that the Jedi are fundamentally flawed. This is part of the reason he will eventually see fit to pass judgement on the entire order. The reason the Jedi didn't go secure her is because for one, the Republic have no jurisdiction there, and for two, they wanted Anakin to sever all emotional attachment to her. Making her slave life seem more like a job than a severe hardship helps make this decision seem reasonable.

    I think one of the reasons they had Anakin meet Padme when they did was to establish a paternal bond between them. Part of the point to it is Anakin ends up using Padme has a surrogate mother figure which adds quite a bit more complexity to their eventual romantic relationship later on.

    Sure TPM doesn't show how close Obi-Wan and Yoda were, but as you can see in AOTC, they are becoming closer, and I am sure that when everything hits the fan in Episode III, they will be fighting back to back. I don't see any problem with this approach if that is how Lucas is doing it. Obi-Wan does end up taking it upon himself to train Anakin as a Jedi and the point of having Yoda teach the younglings is to show the important part of early Jedi training that Anakin ends up skipping. Yoda's training represents the foundation that Obi-Wan felt Anakin didn't need. That's why he says he thought he could have taught Anakin just as well as Yoda. His arrogance is all there.

    You assume that Obi-Wan knew about Leia, but in ESB Yoda had to tell him there was another. Also you assume that Luke is "forced" upon Owen by Kenobi. I got the impression that Owen had taken it upon himself to protect Luke after watching Anakin become evil, and that Owen insisted that Kenobi stay out of Luke's life as not to cause the same trouble with him, that Owen felt he had caused with Anakin.

    You put a lot of thought into the way you would have combined TPM and AOTC, but I think it takes a whole film to show us ho
  20. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >>Yoda's training represents the foundation that Obi-Wan felt Anakin didn't need.<<

    But Obi-wan never says he feels this- in fact, he admits in both TPM and AOTC (deleted scene) that he feels Anakin should not be trained because of that very issue.

    >>Also you assume that Luke is "forced" upon Owen by Kenobi. <<

    Not an assumption- the Annotated Screenplays express this as being determined during ROTJ's story sessions.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    He shows it by insisting on training Anakin against the council's wishes if he must.

    I shouldn't have said it was your assumption if it was in the annotated screenplays, but until we see Episode III it could go in any number of ways. According to the ROTJ novelization, Obi-Wan was Owen's brother.

  22. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
    We are all born good, but in being human we are also born evil.
    (nothing to do with christian original sin)

    The big question is, having established Anakin as a good little saint (and cutting that excellent scene with greedo) and a 9 year old boy, how can we accept the Anakin of AOTC? What has changed him? What's happened in those ten years? ObiWan doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be a bad parent. Why does he let Anakin become so arrogant?

    The transition is unbelievable. The biggest mistake of AOTC was to start ten years later, without showing any of that crucial process that changed a nice nazi-poster boy to an actual nazi (which is the focus of the story is it not?). As it stands, we've been introduced to a completely different character and that relegates TPM to that "unnecessary movie" shelf as all its place as the "setting things up" episode was virtually ignored.
  23. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It all seems pretty believable to me.
  24. Jedi_Waster Jedi Youngling

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    Jun 1, 2002
    star 2
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    >> He shows it by insisting on training Anakin against the council's wishes if he must.<<

    But is he showing that he feels that the youngling training is unecessary, or rather that he is simply insisting on following his word to follow his master's last request no matter what?

    >>but until we see Episode III it could go in any number of ways.<<

    True, true.

    >>According to the ROTJ novelization, Obi-Wan was Owen's brother.<<

    This was the case with the screenplays and story sessions as well. Obviously Lucas changed that idea when he actually sat down to write the prequels. So, it's hard to say if the "forced upon" deterimination will end up still being utilized. Still, it's useful for comparison of what is and what once was as far as Obi-Wan's character goes.
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