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Saga Was the prophecy misread?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by darklordoftech, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Ananta Chetan

    Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Aug 11, 2013
    Yes, and once one gets a taste for the the saga's depth and complexity and Lucas' brilliance, to hear someone denounce them, instead really reveals the limit of that person's understanding, though I suppose it is a sort of default setting for most minds to deny the existence of what they haven't experienced. I have observed that you deal very gently and compassionately with those who try to debate and bait you into choosing a single way of looking at things. You often are able to "transcend and include" those who have a narrower view. A good skill to possess on the boards, so it seems! :)
  2. Darth Gartin

    Darth Gartin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 2, 2013
    Aside from Dooku Anakin is the only Jedi to turn to the dark side as far as Banes rule of two and Sidious was never gonna let Dooku surpass or defeat him. He had his eyes set on Anakin from the time he was a little boy. Even Darth Maul was trained to be expendable. He wanted the most powerful apprentice possible and clearly it was Anakin. By Sidious telling Yoda that Vader would become more powerful than both of them clearly states that one day he expected Vader to kill him and become the Master. (IMO). That way he would be sure of the siths survival.
  3. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    If you go into the EU, there's lots of Jedi who turn to the Dark Side- although not so many in the period between Bane's establishment of the Rule of Two, and Return of the Jedi. Still, it does happen. Including in The Clone Wars TV series- Pong Krell, for example.
  4. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    Well I am going to disagree with some here in that I found the prophecy/chosen one thing in the PT to be largely a waste.

    I don't mind the concept but I felt that it was just tossed out there with little follow up. It didn't seem that the prophecy influenced the jedi's actions, aside from allowing Anakin to be a Jedi. Did Anakin get special training, was he ever told what he was supposed to do, what did he feel about it? Then in the OT the whole thing is never talked about.

    Anohter reason is that I found it to be unneeded. There is enough going on with Anakin as a character and the republic as a whole that you don't need to add this as well. Anakin is a moving force on his own. He trains to be a jedi, he looses his mother in horrible circumstances, he falls in love and marries, in defiance of the rules, he is torn between his duty as a jedi and his feelings which he can't control. In the end he betrays his friends and co-workers and the whole republic and turns to evil. That is more than enough for an epic story, you don't need to add a prophecy as well.

    Had they done something good/interesting with the prophecy then fine but as it it stands in the films, I think the films would have been better off without it and that time could have been spent elsewhere.

    About Palpatine and him saving Anakin.
    From Palpatine's POV, it would make all the sense to let Anakin die, if the chosen one is dead then Palpatine can't be killed as only the chosen one could do it. In theory, it would make Palpatine immortal and unkillable, as long as he is the last Sith and with no chosen one, he can't die, even from old age. Sure the Force would then have to make a new chosen one but it would take years before he or she becomes a threat and without any Jedi to train him/her the odds become even smaller.

    Also, when Palpatine turned Anakin, he did not know that Anakin would get injurded so he did not plan to have a weak apprentice.
    For all he knew, Anakin would be fine and grow even more powerfull and knowing Anakin as he did, he would figure that Anakin would grow impatient and challenge him sooner rather than later.
    Add to this, people argued that injurded Vader would not be able to kill Palpatine. Why?
    This reasoning, I think, is based on the faulty assumption that Vader would challenge Palpatine openly and it would be a fair fight.
    Why would Vader be this stupid? Remember, Palpatine killed his own master in his sleep, there was no honorable fight there.
    Vader could plant bombs, use poison, or any number of methods to kill Palpatine.

    Thirdly, about other Force sensitives.
    It is likely that the jedi found their potential jedi though midi test in all new born babies in the republic.
    So all Palpatine has to do, is to continue this pratice, except he doesn't let the parents say yes or no, he takes the child and the parents vanish.

    In closing, one other problem have with the prophecy if it indeed means "Kill all Sith", then this means the Force has been unbalanced for however long the sith have existed, well over 1000 years and would become unbalanced againas soon as a jedi falls to the dark side.
    Simply killing another person isn't terribly unique or special, it would have been more interesting if it had been something different, like a new understanding of the nature of the Force or something.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  5. Darth Gartin

    Darth Gartin Jedi Padawan star 1

    Sep 2, 2013
    I think when when Darth Plagueis and Sidious was doing all the midi-chlorine experiments was when the force got threw out of balance in favor of the dark side. And in return they unwittingly created the chosen one. It was the forces way of retaliating against their dark ways.
    darth ladnar likes this.
  6. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Mar 20, 2013
    I eally liked the Chosen One storyline, but I like a lot of the points you make.

    I think they didn't want to get to into it too much because we know that Anakin ultimately fulfills the prophecy, but I certainly think they didn't show enough of it on Anakin's side of things. You never really get to know what Anakin thinks of being the Chosen One. The Clone Wars animated series, which I mostly didn't care for, actually did do something cool with it when Anakin has his encounter with the Ones. Anakin learns of his future and the horrible things that he'll do, and he doesn't want to go down that path. For this reason, the Father erases Anakin's memory of this vision of the future because he feels that Anakin has to become Vader and turn evil and do everything else so that in the end he will fulfill the prophecy -- sort of an ends justify the means view. I think this would've been a cool thing to include in ATOC.

    I do think the prophecy is dealt with in a cool way in regards to Palpatine and how he tries to thwart it. Palpatine never directly says that he's trying to thwart the prophecy because there's no one really to tell his plan to. He has to keep it to himself, but it's clear that he has set up the confrontation with Mace to turn Anakin. For instance, there's the fact that he allows himself to be placed in that position in the first place when he knows the Jedi are coming for him. There's also his boast -- "Unlimited Power" -- which only makes sense in that he's just turned Anakin, his prophesized killer into his ally, and it doesn't make sense if he's simply frying Mace. There's also his conclusion that "Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy," showing that turning Anakin was key to Sith domination in his mind. I think these little hints that GL gives the viewer are cool, and I also like the basic concept of trying to trap your prophesized killer as your ally. That's a unique strategy, especially because it goes so well with what we learn in the OT -- that every wise Jedi and even Vader himself think that he can't be turned back to the light.

    I see what you're saying here, but I'm not sure the prophecy means this, or at least, I can think of an interpretation of it that remains consistent with the films and still would allow Palpatine to die of old age. My interpretation is that the prophecy is saying that only Anakin can destroy the Sith. I don't think it's saying that the Sith simply can't die apart from Anakin killing them. The prophecy, in my view, means that if others try to destroy the Sith, those others will fail because only Anakin can destroy the Sith. This interpretation would not protect the Sith from being killed off by passive means -- for instance, growing old and dying. I'm not sure I'm making myself totally clear, but my main point is to distinguish between actively trying to kill Palpatine vs Palpatine dying from passive means, i.e. dying as the normal consequence of being a living thing that ages and then dies on its own.

    I think this one does make sense. Like all Sith, Palpatine wants the most powerful apprentice possible to continue on his legacy and what's most important to him is that the Sith rule on forever. All Sith place themselves in this position by taking on the best possible apprentice, and if they didn't, the Sith would get weaker every generation because the young Siths who replace their old masters would all be weaker than whoever preceded them. Palpatine makes it clear that he's okay with this when he says to Yoda: "You will not defeat me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us." So, he's basically saying: "My definition of winning is that the Sith will live on, and whether you kill me or if Vader kills me, it doesn't really matter, because you won't be able to kill Vader once he reaches his full potential." In the EU, the fact that Palaptine kills Palgueis before Plagueis has mastered the power to keep himself alive also shows that the Master-Servant relationship is more important to Palpatine than living forever is.

    I think this is a good point. Two things I would add. I believe Palpatine never allows himself to sleep just to prevent such a sneak attack. Also, Palpatine can sense what Vader is up to, so it's hard for Vader to do something behind his back.

    I really like this point. I had never thought of this before. Now, someone having Palpatine's potential seems really rare. There seems to be only 2 guys who are at or near his level -- Mace and Yoda -- and one guy who has greater potential, Anakin, and he was created by the Force itself, making him a special case. So, it would be really hard to find a Force baby whose potential exceeds Vader's (who tops out at 80% of Palaptine's level after the injuries). Then, it would take a long time for that baby to grow up and reach his full potential. Anakin started a little late, but he hadn't reached his full potential at 22 years-old, and 23 years passed between ROTS and ROTJ, so it would't be very likely that any young adult picked from this Force baby corps would surpass Vader during that period of time. Still, what you're saying make a lot of sense, and Palpatine should've been searching the galaxy for suitable replacements, and I don't think he does anything like this in the EU.

    This also brings up the question of where young Force-senstives come from. My view is that the Jedi can procreate but not enter into marriage because marriage involves such a strong attachment. With all the Jedi wiped out, the gene gool of strong Force-potentials would be watered down drastically. However, if it's common for the child of 2 non-Force sensitive parents to gain the power to use the Force by a mutation, then this would mean that new Force sensitives could continue to be born at the old rate.
  7. TX-20

    TX-20 Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 21, 2013
    Knowing that the Fates are usually D-Bags. I'm sure the Sith had a similar prophecy about another chosen one unbalancing the Force. Or at least one has to be created to get more Sith into the Universe if Disney wants to make a new SW film every other week for the next thousand years.
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    But we don't even know that Palpatine even knows about the prophecy or if he did, that he would pay it any mind. As you said, he never talks about it. So while his actions might be in response to the prophecy, it might also be that he views Anakin as his greatest threat because of his power potential and what better way to win by turning your enemy's greatest weapon to your side.

    I didn't interpret Palpatine line about the Sith ruling the galaxy as having anything to do with Anakin.
    On the whole, Anakin doesn't play a large part in Palpatines overall plan to take over the galaxy.
    Anakin had nothing to do with Palpatine becoming chancellor, ordering the clone army, the extra powers or the clone war. All of that did not realy on Anakin.

    The only thing Palpatine used Anakin to, was to tell the Jedi that he was a Sith, and that he could have done in many other ways. Or not told them at all and just unleashed order 66.

    But if only Anakin can kill the Sith then if Anakin is dead then this means the Sith are unkillable, they could fight an army of Jedi and win because the other jedi are unable to kill them.
    Even if we allow death by old age or such, it still would be far better for Palpatine to kill Anakin.
    With him dead, Palpatine need not worry about any other remaining jedi being able to kill him, they can't. He could train a new apprentice and if that apprentice ever gets strong enough to kill him, the apprentice is also safe from any surviving Jedi.
    Keeping Anakin around allows the prophecy to come true, even in indirect ways.
    If Anakin kills Palpatine and stays a Sith and then gets himself killed before training an other apprentice, the Sith are all dead. Of Anakin kills Palpatine but is mortally wounded in the fight and dies. With Vader in the suit, this is a big concern. Say Vader gets bold and attacks Palpatine, who uses Force lightning but Vader is able to kill Palpatine but his suit is damaged and he dies shortly after. This would fullfil the prophecy.

    But the situation Palpatine finds himself in after RotS in, I think unique, to the Sith. I haven't read much EU but I think that the last time the Sith ruled, the Jedi were still around in considerable numbers. After RotS, most Jedi are dead. In ANH, almost all of them are dead.
    So the need for the strongest possible apprentice is not as pressing when your most powerfull foe is gone. With all the might of the empire behind them and the Jedi gone, the Sith are safe, except from each other.

    Also, this relies on the flawed assumption that only greater power can defeat great power.
    Not so, if the ship Vader is in explodes, he is dead, no matter how strong he is.
    Also, if Palpatine thinks that the prophecy might be for real, Vader can fullfill it by dying if he is the last Sith. So again, a dead Anakin means he and the Sith that follows him are all unkillable.

    Excpet when vader picked up Palpatine and tossed him down the shaft.


    Well we don't know how midis work of how it is passed down. But since Luke and Leia were assured a high number due to their father. Any of the sibling to the PT jedi would have s high a count as them. If Mace had any brothers or sisters, they would have as high a count as he had.
    Further, the children of those jedi sibling would also have as high a count if not higher.
    So the pool might not be as small.

    Got to run, finish this later.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    He does in the RoTS novelization though.
  10. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

    Sep 4, 2012
    But my response and overall feeling about the prophecy and how it was handled based on the films. What is in novels etc. does not matter to me. I judge the films on their own merits.

    To darth ladnar,
    Good and interesting discussion, thank you.

    One last item.
    Right after RotS, Palpatine is emperor but the senate still has some power. Palpatine is a political animal and his connections and savy is what holds it together. Anakin has none of that. If an uninjured Anakin gets impatient and kills Palpatine too soon after RotS, the empire could crumble if Anakin isn't skilled enough to hold it together. So Palpatine would not just be thinking about the Sith but also the empire, if he is killed and the empire crumbles as a result, it will ruin all his plans. So I don't think he was planing to die any time soon, even if Anakin would be strong enough to kill him.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  11. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Jul 2, 2004
    Which Lucas is said to have line-edited, and he supposedly removed some things he found objectionable. So that could be taken to mean that he basically approved of the rest of it ( except there are a few mistakes which conflict with Lucas' screenplays ).
  12. Jedi Comedian

    Jedi Comedian Jedi Knight star 2

    Oct 27, 2012
    The real point to consider is that we don't know the actual wording of the prophecy. We can't say whether it was misread or not, because we don't know what there was to read in the first place. The only thing I think we could say for certain is that it concerns a "Chosen One", distinguished by their unprecedented midi-chlorian count, who will bring balance to the Force.

    Take, for example, the Sith. Does the prophecy actually mention them? Does it just speak of a great enemy, or "evil" in general, and the Jedi have taken it to mean the Sith? Or is the no mention of defeating/destroying anything, and the Jedi just believe that's what "bringing balance to the Force" must mean?

    Or the destruction of the Jedi Order - did the prophecy ever say that would not happen? Or did it say that it would, but in a cryptic way?

    (Of course, this is just going by the movies, not including the EU.)

    So yeah, we have no way of knowing whether the prophecy was misread or not. Especially with new films on the way.
  13. Darth_Panicius

    Darth_Panicius Jedi Knight star 2

    Apr 7, 2013
    Firstly, excellent thread, thank you.

    A lot of the points made are well thought out.

    Now for my tuppence worth:

    I don't recall the exact wording of the prophecy being stated, I may be wrong. However, I feel that the prophecy was misinterpreted. It talks about the Chosen One bringing balance to the force. Since the Rule of Two, the large number of Jedi against the small number of Sith would plainly indicate an imbalance. It was Jedi arrogance that interpreted the prophecy to mean that the Sith would be destroyed and that they, the Jedi, survive.

    Order 66 brought the number down to two a piece. Luke begins training, Vader kills Obi Wan. Still two a piece. Yoda dies, Vadar kills Palpatine (let's not get into the reasons Vader does this, it isn't relevant) 1 a piece. Vader dies of injuries.

    From Order 66 through to Vader's death there is balance, prophecy fulfilled.

    My only other point, which contradicts the above, but the term is from EU. A Sith is a person who follows a set belief system, much the same as Jedi do. A Dark Jedi, or a Dark Side user, is not necessarily a Sith Lord.
    niel6658 likes this.
  14. IIA_MasterSHenson

    IIA_MasterSHenson Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 1, 2013
    It was not misread (not by Yoda at least).
    The prophecy was about balance. Not about light vanquishing dark or dark vanquishing light but balance. Yoda talks about it being misread but what he means is misinterpreted. The prophecy is very clear. The Jedi believed that it meant the dark would be vanquished but they didn't understand that the Jedi Order lasted for so long without the Sith at all. They thought the chosen one was supposed to destroy the sith (which he was) but not on the time schedule they predicted. He was supposed to balance the score and almost wipe the scorecard to start anew. It's similar to Noah's arc and the great flood. The chosen one is supposed to cast off the overwhelmingly corrupt lightside of the Jedi (it was corrupt and arrogant, etc, etc) and cast off the tyrannous Sith empire. But he had to bring the sith [basically, the darker side to the force] back first. Balance doesn't mean all light or dark. It means something different. The Jedi had grown arrogant, haughty, and were not necessarily serving the will of the force under the chancellor's thumbs. They were too corrupt to believe it meant anything except that they would triumph over their greatest foe (basically fallen jedi). the will of the force isn't always good, good, good. if balance is the will of the force, that doesn't mean being a saint or abiding by all the jedi rules. If the current Jedi Council was just as much against the force as the Sith were, both would need to be decimated so that another spring for the will of the force could be carried out. [and later, we see the new Jedi Order's leader has a wife--defying one of the eldest Jedi Codes]
    (Just my take on it but it's mentioned in SW Essential Guide to the Force, SW Essential Chronology, SW Essential Guide to Characters, and in George Lucas's interviews [I'm taking some of this from his own words] in the bonus discs of Episode I, Episode and III)
    Ananta Chetan likes this.
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

    Sep 2, 2012
    From the introductory documentary for A New Hope, Special Edition (on the VHS version), I'm told Lucas says:

    "The first film starts with the last age of the Republic, which is it's getting tired, it's old, it's getting corrupt.
    There's the rise of the Sith, who are becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this we have Anakin Skywalker, a young boy who is destined to be a significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and to the Republic...
    Then in the second film we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sort of the beginning of the end of the Republic. And it's Anakin Skywalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of Anger, Hatred, Sense of Loss, Possesiveness, Jealousy, and the other things he has to cope with.
    And then we will get to the 3rd film where he is seduced to the Dark Side..
    Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001
    The misread statement is about the fact that Anakin was becoming emotionally compromised and apparently, the Jedi believed that he should be above that. They're wondering if they should have trained him at all, given the things that have happened in the last few years. They don't realize that while he will bring balance, it didn't necessarily mean that he had to be a Jedi Knight at the moment it happens.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  17. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jan 6, 2004
    I reckon by episode three they'd come to realise the whole-sage implications of the prophecy storyline and they were trying to grey it all up a bit. ;)
  18. IIA_MasterSHenson

    IIA_MasterSHenson Jedi Youngling star 1

    Dec 1, 2013

    As I said, he was supposed to destroy the Sith (just not on the time schedule the jedi interpreted) but the prophecy was somewhat misread in the sense that they interpreted it as Anakin becoming the Jedi hero and vanquishing their enemy even though they, too, as Yoda points out are arrogant and too sure of themselves. The order is flawed and we see that it is scrapped and recreated differently in the process of Anakin bringing balance. Vader destroyed the sith and himself. He joined them and vanquished the clouded evil and, in the doing so, recreated the somewhat corrupt jedi order. True balance, not what most of the Jedi had interpreted.
  19. Master Shinobi

    Master Shinobi Jedi Youngling

    Jan 8, 2014
    Anakin is the chosen one, it may have not been the perfect fairytale but he was. Think about it, Palpatine was going to do what he did no matter what. He already made the moves and had everything set up for him to destroy the Jedi and establish the galactic empire. Order 66 was programmed into his clone army and it would have been executed whether Anakin was there or not, he did everything to put himself in a position where he had complete control of the senate. If Anakin would have not been around then Luke would have never been born either and the situation would have never came up where Vader destroyed him, the Jedi would have been extinct. The emperor would have ruled the galaxy with Dooku or some other apprentice at his side. Anakin is the chosen one and did bring balance to the galaxy, it was just a bumpy ride.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  20. Bullhead CIty

    Bullhead CIty Jedi Knight star 3

    Dec 1, 2012
  21. Ezekial

    Ezekial Jedi Master star 3

    May 24, 2002
    Eh...there have been *many many* Sith since the death of Anakin Skywalker. Darth Krayt even came to rule the galaxy...

    Of course, that's the EU.

    But even in the universe, eh, I find it hard to believe that in a large universe such as that, with the many trillions of beings, that you could fully stamp out anything.

    So it's silly. This isn't balance at all. It is...ideological cleansing. Balance would mean something like Sith and Jedi sitting together on a ruling council. That would have been interesting.
  22. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Sep 3, 2012
    If the Sith and Jedi were sitting in the same room, they would be arguing about on how to kill each other :p
  23. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

    Mar 18, 2013
    I don't think it was misread, it just was never made clear. I think what happens is Anakins strays off the path for awhile. By the end of ROTJ he comes back onto his path and fulfills the prophecy. The films hint that there is both fate and free will in the SW galaxy.

    From the films it is clear it goes to his head and inflates his ego which adds more to his character. He knows he is supposed to be the most powerful Jedi and it makes him more arrogant.
    Darth Raiden likes this.
  24. Fastback

    Fastback Jedi Padawan star 1

    Jan 12, 2014
    I believe Anakin was the chosen one but how the prophecy would be fullfilled was unclear. You can say Anakin joining the darkside and defeating the Jedi brought balance back to the force and also him having kids who later on defeated the sith and empire rule. I think no matter a person born with no father because of the force and becomes one of the greatest sith lords and has a son who becomes one of the greatest jedi masters. The skywalker family to me is part of the prophecy through out EU history after Ep. V and they continue the fight to restore or keep the balance in the force either as a sith or jedi.
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jun 28, 2001

    The only reason the EU did that was because they wanted to have the Sith. They didn't need them. As it is, the Sith were confined to two beings at a time and with the teachings lost with Palpatine, there wouldn't be any more Sith. The EU used stuff like, "The True Sith were hidden outside of the Republic" and Lumyia was a self proclaimed Sith. Now, odds are they won't be in the next films. So their order can be wiped out.