CT Was the Rebel Alliance really the bad guys?

We don't know that.

And its part of the Empire who's leaders were actively undermining Imperial rule (committing treason really).

 

So? Just because it's treason, doesn't mean that, in this context, it's wrong.

Or that a reasonable response is "destroy whole planet"

 

I agree with you about the intent of the senate. In fact, I'm not even sure the senate had intent. I think they were relieved that the war was over and were ready to accept anything that would prevent such an event from happening again. I guess they were also grateful that Palpatine had stood tall and lead them bravely through the conflict (or so it would seem).

There does seem to be only one house in the Republic but you have to remember that this is a government for an entire galaxy. Having an upper and lower chamber is probably impractical. There must be so many divergent interests in the Republic what with each planet wanting to look after number one that I can hardly imagine much would get done in the Republic at all (strong evidence for that in TPM). As for the Supreme Chancellor, not all leaders are elected by the people in democratic systems. In the UK people vote for the party, not the Prime Minister. The party leader (who will become PM if they win the election) is chosen internally. In the USA, as I understand it, the President is chosen by the electoral college, not by the people. From the evidence on screen I think the Republic can be said to be fairly similar to Republics on Earth and with that will come the expected checks and balances. I think my point about the Senate not representing unlimited power still stands.

I focused on the senate because that was my point of contention with sluggo1313 who seemed to feel that their cheering in ROTS makes the Empire legitimate. I'm convinced that it doesn't but I guess we all have different opinions.

 

Says you. Obviously the Imperial perspective is that was a reasonable responce. The people chose to lead Alderaan made that decision and they made an example.

Thats what I've been saying this whole time - it all comes down to perspective.

Lord Chazza - the fact that Palpatine doesn't break and Republic laws (that we know of) and has the support (cheering and political/legal) of the Republics ruling body means that him becoming Emperor was legitimate.

 

As for this Alderaan thing, does Tarkin's line "Dantooine is too far too make an effective demonstration" not make it blindingly obvious what Tarkin's intentions were? He didn't blow Alderaan up because there were rebels there. He blew it up because he wanted to hurt Leia, find the rebel base and show off his new toy to the galaxy. That fact that there were rebels there was just an added bonus. Tarkin would have blown up ANY important. He would probably have destroyed multiple planets just for fun. He was drunk on his power, blown away by his title of Grand Moff and his command of the most deadly weapon that ever existed.

 

Dissolving the Republic IS breaking Republic law! We do not need a copy of the Republic constitution to determine that. Find me an example of any democratic administration where it is legal for the leading politician of the day to dissolve the government and assume absolute power on a whim and I will eat my words.

 

He doesn't do that until ANH, and its not if its one of the powers they elected him during the war and allowed him keep when he became Emperor.

What you're saying has happened many times in human history and Lucas as credited those times as the inspiration for how he wrote the PT. He didn't want a story about someone who forcable takes control, but who gets people to give up their freedom to him.

 

You do know its possible to have more then 1 motivation right?

If he didn't have a rebel leader standing in front of him he probably doesn't go to Alderaan at all.

 

Again, Chazza, it's all a matter of perceptions. No, Tarkin's intentions were not wholly 'blindingly obvious'. I think he wanted to go after Rebel Leaders and make a point to the galaxy as a whole not simply hurt one girl. For me, his intention is to quell treason and rebellion not merely show off.

 

If I remember right so was Bail not a prince regent, just a prince. He belonged to the circle around the Alderaanian leadership but was not part of it. Is this right or do I remember wrong?

 

I think it's spelled out best in Death Star, from the point of view of an army sergeant and combat instructor:

The man gave his report, and Nova kept his face stolid as he listened. So the girl that the doctor had spoken of in the cantina had given Tarkin and Vader a false lead. Brave, but not very smart, since Tarkin was now irritated enough to tell Vader to execute her.
Once upon a time, Nova would have shrugged that bit of news away. It wasn't his business how the higher-ups behaved; he just followed his orders and did his job, a good and loyal soldier. But if blowing up Despayre had been terrible, killing Alderaan was several orders of magnitude more horrifying. Billions of innocents had died there, not hardened and convicted criminals - billions of civilians of all ages - and how could you in good conscience serve somebody who thought that was the way to wage war?
It had rocked him to his core, maybe because of the whole Force thing. But he hadn't been the only one. Sure, there were always some kill-'em-all types who said they must have deserved it, else it wouldn't have been done; but there were a lot of people on this battle station who couldn't accept these actions as things even to be contemplated in a sane and rational universe. It wasn't supposed to have gone this far. From everything he'd heard it was to be merely the threat of mundicide. Blowing up a planet - killing everything that lived on it - just to make a point?
This was his last tour, Nova decided; he wasn't going to stay in a military that would commit such atrocities. And if there was anything he could do to help prevent it from happening again, he ought to seriously consider it.
Killing civilian populations on a planetary scale was evil beyond comprehension. Nova could fight a room full of men straight-up, face to face, and if he had to kill half of them to survive, he'd do it. But he hadn't signed on to slaughter children asleep in their beds.

and from the point of view of the gunner:

The destruction of the prison planet had been gut-wrenching enough, even though he'd known the place had been home to killers and spice dealers and other scum of the galaxy. He reminded himself of that often, trying to find comfort in it, trying not to think about the thousands of guards and other personnel stationed on Despayre, some of whom had been his friends, not to mention the considerable number who had been wrongfully convicted and exiled there, all of whom had died in fire because he had thrown the lever. Try as he might, he couldn't justify their massacre simply as collateral damage.
And even if he could, there was still Alderaan. That hadn't been collateral damage. That had been genocide on a planetary scale, an entire world wiped away, and for what? Why did all those millions of people have to die?
As an object lesson. To show the galaxy that the Empire meant business, that Palpatine was not to be trifled with. To make sure that Tarkin's fear doctrine was taken seriously.
And to punish - no, to torture - a young noblewoman who was part of the Rebellion.
He'd heard the story from more than one source. There had been no Rebel force hidden on Alderaan - if he could have believed there had been, it might have helped. But there had been guards there when Tarkin had told Motti to drop the hammer. They had heard the truth.
And it had been Tenn who had pulled the trigger. He had sent the beam that killed at least a billion people, maybe more; he didn't know what the planetary population had been. No doubt there was an up-to-date census in some datafile somewhere, but he wasn't going looking for it. He didn't want to know the figures. The bottom line was that he had done it.
That knowledge was worse than gut-wrenching. Much worse. Tenn hadn't had a peaceful night's sleep since he'd done it, and he didn't see how he ever could again.

The ANH novel doesn't say- however, the RoTJ novel does:

"The Organa family was high-born and politically quite powerful in that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage - no-one knew she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, since Alderaan had long been a democracy. Even so, the family continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster father's path, became a senator as well. That's not all she became, of course - she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause.

That's what she was doing when her path crossed yours - for her foster parents had always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became desperate."

 

What? The Republic is dissolved in ROTS when Palpatine declares the first Galactic Empire.

I never denied that. That's besides the point. The question is this: Did Palpatine legitimately become Emperor? Answer: No. Because to create an Empire requires an overthrow of the current regime and a seizure of power. That is always illegal under any government. That the senate goes along with him is merely meant to illustrate that the Republic is corrupt and dying. It is not meant to confer any sort of legitimacy.

I disagree. Palpatine did take control by force. He cloned himself an army, orchestrated a war, eliminated his opposition e.g. Jedi or elements of the Seperatists and then proclaimed himself Emperor. That is what is so brilliant about Palpatine. He orchestrates what is effectively a coup d'état yet he makes it look like he is the defender of the current system.

 

I certainly do. In fact, if you read my post properly I think you'll find 3 motivations

 

That makes sense.

That's a technicality. The very purpose of the existence of the electoral college is to vote for president, and the people of each state get to choose who their electors vote for. So it's not like the U.S. Senate is determining who will be president the way the Republic Senate determines who is Supreme Chncellor.

It is tough to know for sure since the movies don't really go into any details, but I think this is a fair assessment.

 

A rather important technicality I'd say. Did the American people choose George Bush in 2000?

 

After the loss of the DS maybe but people seemed to argue that the empire begun spinning the destruction Alderaan right after the DS blew it up. So that is why I asked.
I would imagine Tarkin doing the opposite of that. He would have sent a galaxy wide message right away, basically saying "Look at the AWESOME might of the Empire, kneel and submit to your masters." The intent of the DS is a weapon of terror and the empire would want people to know about it, otherwise the terror is less effective.

And if they play, "the rebels are lying card", they could simply say that the DS was not destroyed or that they have many more of them. The Empire certainly was in a bind after ANH, the senate was disbanded and the emperor basically said, "Your freedom is now totally gone, do as I say or I'll blow you up." Then he lost the ability to blow people up. So he had shown his true colors, first with the senate and then with Alderaan. Trying to play the good guy again would be hard.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Yes he wanted to stamp out rebellion. He wanted to enforce an Imperial reign of terror. I agree with you fully there. But I think that is almost a secondary issue from his POV. The Death Star was Tarkin's pet project. It had taken years and yet here he was, at last, with the most powerful weapon in the galaxy under his command. He had accrued so much power I think he was desperate to use the Death Star just to, in a funny sort of way, shout at the galaxy. The way he dies is so telling. His refusal to evacuate, a refusal to acknowledge that the Death Star and his own power have limits or may be flawed.

 

About whether or not Palpatine becoming emperor was "legal" or not.

We don't know what the republic constitution said but in my country, there are a number of laws that the prime minister and the parliament CAN'T ignore. They can change them but that requires a vote, then an election and then another vote.
So if the prime minister did something in violation of those laws, even if the parliament supported him, those actions would still be ILLEGAL.

So that the senate supported him might not be enough evidence to say that him becoming emperor was legal.

And suppose that some senators had been bribed, is it legal then?

Take the film, "V for Vendetta." In that film, some people create a deadly virus, releases it in a fake terrorist attack in order to cause panic and fear. Thus they win the next election and make themselves absolute rulers. Was that legal?

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Yes they did. First, the citizens spent about 6 months deciding whom to nominate and then, in the general election, the citizens cast their ballots for either of two options: George Bush or Al Gore (or one of the assorted 3rd party candidates). So the people are voting for one candidate or the other among the choices they themselves nominated. Yes the system allows for a candidate with a minority of the popular vote to win a majority of electoral votes, but it isn't like the U.S. Senate of House of Representatives decide completely among themselves whom to nominate and elect as President (like they do for, say, Speaker of the House).

If enough people in this country wanted George Lucas to be President, and he was willing to take the job, then he would be President no matter what the Senate or House or Courts had to say about it.

 

Sure. I wasn't trying to say it was exactly the same situation. I was merely pointing out that it is not so unusual for a head of a democratic state to not be chosen directly by the people.

 

Incorrect. You don't know that.

Star Wars has existed in many media, more than you may have encountered, and the National Public Radio adaptions expanded on the stories of both A New Hope and the Empire Strikes Back so I'm not just flapping my mouth when I am saying that Bail Organa's affiliation had NOTHING to do with the destruction of Alderaan.

In your mind, Sluggo, Bail being a Rebel would have been reason enough to destroy the planet. Tarkin got to that conclusion, but by a different set of reasoning.

 

For the most part it seems pretty easy to hate the Empire, at least from an outsider's view that we as the audience are given. But I started to question that suggested hatred after I read the Republic Commando series. Really, the Empire is no worse than the Old Republic except that it is more efficient. From a soldier's perspective, few things changed between being part of the GAR to being part of the Imperial forces.

Also, I believe the Empire itself wasn't inherently evil, just the Emperor. As Mara points out later (I believe in Survivor's Quest, though I am not sure), the Empire might have been much better than even the New Republic or Galactic Alliance had someone like Thrawn been at it's head instead of a Sith lord.

 

The Empire might have been much like the Republic early on - but by the OT era, the sheer brutality of its actions was producing a lot of backlash.

 

This sentiment drives me insane. How are absurdly expensive Death Stars that BLOW UP PLANETS and then get blown up at all "efficient"?

Except for the genocide, planetary destruction, mass enslavement, terror tactics, mass murder of innocent civilians, and the fact that the clones now have to fight flesh and blood beings instead of droids.

Thrawn was at its head for a while, and he used his power for.....you guessed it, enslaving entire species, making disposable clone armies, teaming up with insane Dark Jedi, and completely uncalled for executions of Imperial officers.

SO MUCH BETTER GUYS.

And can we drop the perspectives nonsense? The thread is asking YOU if the Rebels were really the bad guys, not someone in-universe.

 

Round and round, up and down, forwards, not backwards, upwards, not forwards, upwards, not sideways - enough.



"Evil Galactic Empire".

Unless anyone has an in-universe explanation regarding the fallibility and subjective perspective of a race of hooligans wandering the GFFA littering space with giant yellow writing, I'm locking this thread.

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