PT Was the war with the Separatists/clone wars unjust?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 19, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The republic and the Jedi went to war with the Seperatists, a large group of star systems in the galaxy who wanted to leave the republic. But why were they really evil? The Republic was corrupt, George Lucas said that himself and the movies said it too, that's why they left it. How was the Galactic Republic the ideal government in the galaxy if they started a war over people who wanted to leave them, for being a corrupt bad form of galactic government in the first place? They were not trying to harm the Republic.
    StampidHD280pro likes this.
  2. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    So you buy the propaganda?

    Seriously, though, on what do you base the assertion that the CIS was harmless? They invaded and enslaved planets. The motives of many of the separatists may not have been "evil," of course, but the movement was not benign by any means.

    And of course the Republic had corruption - EVERY government has some.
  3. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The republic went to war with the CIS because they wanted to keep them as part of their government. They wanted to control people who wanted to leave them. When did the Separatists invade and enslave planets?
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Trade Federation invades Naboo in TPM- and they're one of the chief groups of the CIS.

    That said, it's mostly the EU that outlines what was going on with the CIS just before and just after the Battle of Geonosis.
  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    The only reason the Republic attacked first would be because Obi-Wan alerted them that a Sep invasion was imminent.
  6. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    The Seperatists did not want to take over the galaxy. If they invaded Naboo once in TPM, I don't see why they have to start a big war over a little skirmish like that, a war that lets the emperor rise to power and get loyal followers, and, the events of the original trilogy. When did the movies say the Separatists wanted to take over?

    Was the Separatist government bad, the way that it ruled?
  7. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    They were bad because they were created by GL to be bad. If you can't accept the "creator's" word and don't see it in the movies, then nothing will persuade you and your complaint should be that GL didn't show what he's telling.
  8. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    There were heroes on both sides, according to GL.
    Bacon164 and StampidHD280pro like this.
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Which is not the same as saying that the war was just, or unjust for that matter- it simply means that there were people who behaved "heroically".

    You can have the Separatists planning on invading the Republic with their droid army (only to be thwarted in their surprise attack by the events of AoTC) and yet still have some heroes. Not every Separatist soldier was a battle droid, after all.
  10. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Well, the leaders of the Republic planned to impose a dictatorship upon the cosmos... Neither side was all good, or all bad. Planets should have the right to secede. It's a democracy - a voluntary union. Fighting a war about that is wrong, IMHO. But fighting a war because the other side planned to invade - its a debate of 'hitting first' which is different.
    DarthBoba likes this.
  11. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    While the Separatists aren't depicted in a heroic manner nearly ever in the prequels, we can't forget that the entire war (and Separatist movement) was planned and staged by the head of the Republic. The Separatist alliances weren't wrong for wanting to be free of restrictions, but they um... at least somewhat knowingly allowed a Sith to be their leader.
  12. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    And didn't have any idea what a Sith was. Dooku was a respected and beloved leader. Him being a butcher was not evident to the general populace. He was, fundamentally, a Jedi to them. Grievous was the nutter for them.
  13. StampidHD280pro Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah, but... the cape, the bushy eyebrows, the villain beard, all black, the red lightsaber.... he's going for the "maverick" image at least. Maybe even anti-hero, like Batman.
  14. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What's a maverick? Also, why would it matter if the Separatists had a sith as their leader?
  15. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    They were created by GL to be the antagonists in the Clone Wars, but not necessarily bad. If you have a thorough knowledge of what goes on during the CW you know there were genuine beings who wanted a civilized government separated from the corruption of the Republic for the better of their peoples. But yes, most of the CIS leaders were power-hungry war mongers.

    The CIS DID want to take over most of the galaxy, or what was ruled by the Republic. If you watched AOTC you see Dooku meeting with them plotting to use the droid army to overwhelm the Jedi and take over the Republic. That's taking over. Many of the CIS regimes were in fact brutally oppressive, but there were some like that in the Republic as well.

    If you have a Sith Lord as your organizations leader you are essentially adopting the Sith philosophy about cyclical changes in power, oppression and death. That's pretty bad. I know I wouldn't want a Sith Lord as my president.
  16. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    That's true. The Separatist government was ruled by Dooku, a sith lord. But, here's what I don't get. The sith are obviously evil. They did a lot of atrocities throughout the saga and that shows it. But, how exactly was Dooku himself evil? Why does a Sith's philosophy and religion matter, if they're the ruler, and it's their personal philosophy? What evil things, would Dooku have done if, what if, he became the leader of a successful seceded Separatist government? Would he have been a dictator, and, if so, what would he have done as a ruler?
  17. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Nobody knew what a Sith was. No Sith had been in the public sphere for a millennium. That's the equivalent of a Norman Duke or Spanish Crusader unmasking themselves. We know a lot about them from a historical perspective, but we do not know what drives them. We also know that history is wrote by the winners, so the opinions on the religion could be eschewed.
  18. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    the truth of the matter is this

    Lucas disagreed with the American war of independence and thought segregation from England was wrong and corrupt.


    I'm kidding of course ;)
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's interesting that the Separatists have a Parliament- with a very British aesthetic- whereas the Republic has a Senate.

    Like a reversal of the War of Independence in that respect.
  20. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    I believe this is what Owen Lars was referring to when he said "a foolish, idealistic crusade.", because both sides weren't worth fighting for.

    Here's what the movies tell us.

    Taxes had been imposed on the outer system trade routes.

    The Trade Federation, in protest of these new taxes, were persuaded to blockade Naboo so it would force the Republic to rescind this new legislation.

    The Republic is governed by a corrupt Senate and is heavily influenced by the Sith.

    The Naboo (with no help from the Republic) defeats the Trade Federation.

    A former Jedi named Dooku, who became tired of the ineptitude of both the Republic and his order, decides to leave both to return and reclaim his nobility.

    Count Dooku, for some mysterious reason, decides to get involved again and convinces several thousand solar systems to secede.

    In order to fund his campaign against the Republic, he tries to get the greedy corporations to side with his cause and therefore sign treaties in order to get these funds.

    In the end, the Republic is governed by the corrupt and so is the CIS.

    The Jedi Knights should not have gotten involved.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Oct 21, 2012
    DarthBoba likes this.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I think it was Obi-Wan being captured on Geonosis that convinced Yoda to get involved.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If they didn't, then PalpSidious will twist their actions around to have it look like they're siding with the Seperatists. He'll fool the Republic into believing this concept and have them declare the Jedi as traitors thus leading them to grant PalpSidious permission to initiate Order 66 upon the Jedi.

    The Jedi were doomed no matter what they do.
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    If palpatine didn't want absolute power and to transform the republic into the empire, order 66 never would have happened. The only reason that the Emperor had all the Jedi killed was so they wouldn't get in the way of him getting more power. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's the impression I got from the movies. There may have been other reasons for Order 66. The Jedi were not doomed.

    The Jedi should'nt have gotten involved with the Seperatist war. However, they did invade several planets. But that would have happened anyway. So, the jedi doing to war with the CIS was very unjust, but it would be just if they defended the planets that the CIS invaded.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    But PalpSidious DID want absolute power which is why he created both the Seperatist movement and the Clone Wars in the first place. He needed those events to scare the Republic into giving him more power and complete authority over the galaxy. As for the Jedi, they're not helping anyone by not getting involved in this war and the galactic population will hate them for their refusal to fight. PalpSidious will take advantage of the Jedi's inaction which brings me back to the whole "declaring them traitors" part and Order 66. He would need a legitimate reason to convince the Republic to renounce the Jedi as their protectors and other than an assassination attempt, which he framed them for, disloyalty and insubordination is the next best thing for PalpSidious to declare them "enemies of the Republic".
    FARK2005 and Valairy Scot like this.
  25. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    If the Jedi had stayed out, they still would have launched a coup inevitably to stop the violence.

    It was the coup which justified Order 66 after all.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.