Lit Was Thracia Cho Leem an Altisian Jedi?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by sidv88, Jan 29, 2015.

  1. sidv88 Jedi Master

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    Aug 22, 2005
    star 4
    I am looking through the novel 'Rogue Planet' on Kindle, and Master Leem boasts to Mace Windu about being married and having children, without Mace chiding her on the non-marriage rules. It's unclear how she could stay in the Jedi Order given that (it's noted she only outright leaves at the end of the novel). I think the novel was written before 'Attack of the Clones'? It's still odd that Leland or anyone at LFL didn't edit this beforehand, or provide some kind of retcon. Thracia's Wookieepedia page also notes that she is not considered to be part of the 'Lost Twenty' despite leaving the Order.

    'The Clone Wars: No Prisoners' shows a subgroup of Jedi known as Altisian Jedi that allow marriage and have rules differing from the main Order. Could Master Leem have been part of this group? It would explain how she was still considered a 'Jedi' despite marrying. Maybe it was the Altisian Order she left at the end of 'Rogue Planet'.

    While the Altisian Order doesn't outright contradict anything in the films, it does undermine Anakin's dilemma in ROTS. 'No Prisoners' has Anakin contemplating an offer to join the Altisian Jedi. If he had the Altisian Jedi to call on for advice with regards to Padme's pregnancy, it does undermine ROTS' implied dilemma that he had no one but Palpatine to turn to. I guess the point is moot since all EU pre-2014 has been declared non-canon now.

    I also note that Wookieepedia states that the Lost Twenty consisted of Jedi Masters who left the Order, but I don't know the source for this. Maybe it doesn't count Altisian Jedi. I thought a more fitting explanation might be that the Lost Twenty only consisted of Jedi Council members that left the Order. The Clone Wars' official website apparently indicated that Dooku was once a member of the Jedi Council, so this explanation could fit. It would also explain how Vader considered himself a 21st member of the 'Lost Twenty' in 'Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader', since he was actually a member of the Jedi Council.

    Is there anything in the EU that prevents Thracia from being an Altisian Jedi? It does seem strange that Nejaa Halcyon of 'Jedi Trial' didn't join...
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  2. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 6
    Real-life explanation: Rogue Planet came out pre-AOTC, I believe, so the no-attachments rule hadn't been established in canon yet.

    Canon explanation: No idea; I guess her being an Altisian Jedi was the best logical explanation, but it's like everybody forgot about her. That would've been something I would've liked to be explained before the Great Canon Purge.

    Also, one time I was talking to my brother about her and I told him "she was bragging about being married to Mace Windu." He misconstrued my (admittedly off) sentence structure and replied "Wait, Mace Windu was married?!?" [face_laugh]
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    It's not so much a brag, as a "You're less qualified to assess Anakin's situation, because you've not raised your own kids - I have" statement.

    A small female figure clad in Temple robes stepped into the circle, and a clear voice sang through the chamber. "Just as I thought. A little inquisition going on here, eh?"
    Mace got to his feet, smiling broadly at the sarcasm. "Welcome, Thracia."
    Obi-Wan bowed his head in respect.
    "Anakin, may I stand beside you?" Thracia Cho Leem walked slowly toward the center of the chamber where Obi-Wan and Anakin stood. Her gray hair was cut to a close cap on her long skull, and her aquiline nose sniffed at the cool air as if she judged all by their scent. Her eyes, large and bright, irises like ultramarine beads, swept the empty seats. She gathered her long dark robes and pulled up her sleeves to reveal strong, thin arms. Then she thrust out her chin. "I should have warned you I'd return, Mace," she said.
    "It is always an honor, Thracia," Mace said.
    "You seem to be ganging up on this boy."
    "It could be worse," Mace said. "Most of the Council are away today. Yoda would be much harsher-"
    "That big-eared tree stump knows nothing about human children. And for that matter, neither do you. You've never married, Mace! I have. I have many sons and daughters, on many worlds. Sometimes I think you should all take a break, as I did, and sniff the real air, see how the Force manifests in everyday life, rather than mope around learning how to swing lightsabers."
    Mace's smile became one of delight. "It is wonderful to have you with us, Thracia, after so many years." There was not a hint of irony in his tone. He was, in fact, pleased to have her in the room, and seemed even more pleased that she had surprised them. "What do you suggest for young Skywalker?"
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jan 30, 2015
  4. Revanfan1 Force Ghost

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    Jun 3, 2013
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    Ah. She says she "took a break." So she left the Jedi, had a family, and then came back. Interesting...
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  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    The phrase "many sons and daughters, on many worlds" raises questions - just how long was her break? And what kind of parent is she? How many times has she married? Or did her family tend to spread out - seeking different worlds to live on? Was the marriage at the start of the break, or "on Jedi time"?
  6. sidv88 Jedi Master

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    Aug 22, 2005
    star 4
    Thracia says Yoda knows nothing about human children?? He's been training younglings likely longer than Thracia's been alive! Rogue Planet does seem jarring in respect to the rest of Legends canon.
  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    In TCW Season 6 Lost Missions, in Yoda's visions, Dooku is seen talking about past missions together when they were Padawan and Master, and of how they "fought the terentatek on Kashyyyk" - though Yoda eventually remembers that Dooku has fallen, and that some of the people are actually dead.

    If that's a snippet from his memories though, then maybe he hasn't been training younglings for generations- but took up the task after he finished training Dooku to Knight?
  8. DurararaFTW Jedi Knight

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    Jul 5, 2014
    star 3
    Which would still be longer then Thracia's been alive. Dooku's pretty old in his own right.
  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    He was about 72 at the time of Rogue Planet (since he's 83 in ROTS).

    If Dooku finished his training sometime in his 20s like Obi-Wan, then that's 50 odd years in which Yoda can become, at some point, the trainer of Jedi younglings specifically.

    It's quite possible that with her grey hair, and "many children, on many worlds" Thracia's "break" has lasted a long time.
  10. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    First of: that is prejudice against non-married parents, foster-parents and families made up by different species.

    Secondary: what dose she mean with “real air”? What count as “everyday life”? And did she truant from all the jedi classes but lightsaber combat and the optional ‘moping for jedi who want to be fan favourites’ class?


    Or maybe he took turns at being stay at home youngling trainer for some time followed by some time in the filed? Over 900 years give you lot of time to change your lifestyle.
    Last edited by Gamiel, Feb 1, 2015
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  11. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
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    Maybe Thracia's criticism of Yoda wasn't accurate? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  12. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 6, 2007
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    Sorry to raise a dead thread here. But I just finished re-reading Rogue Planet and I was fascinated by the character of Thracia Cho Leem. A Jedi Master who was allowed to come and go from the Jedi Order and Temple as she pleased. Seemingly unanswerable to the Jedi Council, she has had numerous relationships and children over the years. And she seems to address the leaders of the Order with astounding disrespect. She calls Master Yoda a "big-eared tree stump"!

    Who was this stranger Jedi that Mace Windu seemed to respect and didn't chastise for insulting the Jedi Grand Master?
    Last edited by Vialco, Mar 11, 2017
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  13. LelalMekha Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 29, 2012
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    I did find her character fascinating, and I wonder why she was never used again. Truth to be told, I was always fond of maverick Jedi like the Dark Woman, Altis, the Corellian Jedi...
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  14. Gamiel Force Ghost

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    Dec 16, 2012
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    Personally I find them overwhelming, some time it feels that every jedi that gets some personality or a longer time in the spotlight is some kind of maverick, rebel or have some dangerous forbidden technique.
    The authors pet :p;)
    Last edited by Gamiel, Mar 11, 2017
  15. Vialco Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 6, 2007
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    Cough *SabaSebatyne* Cough
  16. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Aug 8, 2016
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    She sounds somewhat similar to An'ya Kuro in that they both spent a lot of time away from Coruscant and the temple. I imagine she was allowed to go as she desired and got away with her disrespect because the Jedi felt they needed her more than they could do without her.
  17. patchworkz7 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2004
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    I think one thing that's interesting about the Jedi that doesn't get talked about much is that they were fairly loose with what their Masters did, and Thracia Cho Leem is a Jedi Master. We know that there were a few Jedi in the main Order that were considered Grey or Gray (the meaning of which wasn't clear at first and seemed to get reworked a few times, but still...) in that they had some issues with how strict things were, and Jedi like Ki-Adi Mundi were allowed to break the rules, but just looking at Thracia Cho Leem it seems like she was able to control her attachment, as she left kids on multiple words, which suggests that she wasn't really THAT attached. She may well have raised them to a certain point and then just left we really don't know.

    So if she was on leave, as well as skirting the spirit of the law by not forming deep connections, they may well have just decided that having her on their side was better than pushing her out of the order.

    By the time a Jedi is a Master, they're faced down a lot of challenges, and one can assume the Council just decided that a Jedi like Thracia was committed enough to navigate the issues of relationships, children, and attachments without forming bonds that would compromise her.

    There were also other academies and teachers that were more estranged from the core Jedi Order on Corsucant, and these were the Corellian, the Altisian Jedi, and the Almas Academy Jedi among others. They, for lack of a better word, could be seen as different denominations of the Jedi Order, ones that disagreed with small issues, but overall stayed within the teachings and didn't stray into the heresy of the Sith or some other Force Sensitive groups that were considered not Jedi.

    I don't think it's that hard to imagine Jedi Masters were just afforded a greater latitude, and perhaps as a way to keep them from wander too far astray (and becoming another of the Lost), many were allowed to keep small academies and training facilities as...not quite offshoots of the Jedi Order, but clearly Jedi who were kept at arm's length from the core order and their Jedi.

    Honestly, it just adds to the richness of the lore, imo.
  18. Ulicus Lapsed Moderator

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Hm. I like it!

    *likes it*

    That take on things would also lend to Anakin's "I need to be a Master", thing. It's not just about getting access to the holocron repository (or whatever the novel said), or his own sense of pride, but also about being in a position where once his marriage to Padmé comes out he can play the "I'm a Master and I know what I'm doing", card.

    And Palpatine, knowing that Jedi Masters get more leniency, knowing that leniency is what Anakin needs, and knowing that the Jedi Council won't allow Anakin to be auto-promoted to Master just because he's on the Council . . . .
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  19. Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Master

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  20. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Mavericks are noted because there so notable.
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  21. sidv88 Jedi Master

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    Aug 22, 2005
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    Wow, someone dug up my old thread ;) . Curiously, some time after starting this thread, I looked through the novel Clone Wars No Prisoners, where Anakin notes that he had heard rumors of maverick Jedi who married but never met one until meeting the Altisian Jedi during the Clone Wars. That means during the Clone Wars, Legends Anakin forgot all about Thracia (in real world, more likely No Prisoners writer Karen Traviss forgot about her...)

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N910A using Tapatalk
  22. SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2016
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    The No-Attachments rule was pulled out of GL's shebs to create conflict for Anakin in AotC. I don't recall it being a thing prior. The Altisian Jedi were created as a retcon for all Jedi who violated said rule, so it likely applies to this character.
  23. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Aug 8, 2016
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    Given the Jedi's pseudo-Buddhist proclivities in the prequels its not insensible as a rule IU.
  24. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 6
    You know, the Jedi order really should have trademarked the Jedi name to prevent all those people that don't have to go through their training or follow their rules to call themselves Jedi and use the orders hard earned respect and privileges. :p
    Last edited by Gamiel, Mar 13, 2017
  25. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

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    Aug 8, 2016
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    I imagine in the prequel era the various offshoots were nearly autonomous tied to the main order on Coruscant only by adherence to shared doctrine and similar principles.

    I always wonder how An'ya Kuro got away with apparently spending decades away meditating, her fierce training methods and some of her more obscure abilities most certainly would have brought questions her way.

    The only answer I can give is that if your valued enough as a master the Jedi will tolerate your idiosyncrasies and misbehavior.

    Qui Gon Jinn seems to be a lighter version of this-disagrees with the Jedi leadership on a more philosophical level but they let him do special missions, entertain him with Anakin and the chosen one business even though you can tell they aren't interested at the time, and seem to give him leeway.

    Basically if your a valued master you can get way with disrespect, intense philosophical disagreement, affairs and children, and spending years away meditating.