Was Vader forgiven too quickly?

In the end of Episode Six, we see the touching scene of Luke looking at the apparitions of his father and two mentors reunited again - Anakin finally redeemed for his fall by defeating the Evil Emperor. Yet the more that Vader's past and fall to darkness is chronicled, the more I feel that perhaps that sort of forgivness was given somewhat rashly.

Were he the impartial tactician, always distant and commanding soldiers into battle dispassionately, then it'd be easier to forgive him if he served a dark ideology, but as we all know Anakin's transformation to Darth Vader was riddled with acts of brutality and cruelty. The acts aren't even vague or part of some generic "Evil Background", as the Expanded Universe continues to detail each gruesome slaughter of surviving Jedi that Vader perpetrated.

The man killed children with his own hands, choked his pregnant wife in a fit of rage, and oversaw the destruction of a planet. Sure, he had reasons - manipulation by the galaxy's foremost silver-tongued schemer, a myriad of family and personal issues, a strained psyche that did not fit the life of a Jedi - but there's an important difference between an excuse and a justification. Just because he had a reason doesn't mean it was justified.

The more I read and learn about the years shortly following Order 66, the more I learn of the reprecussions from his various acts of tyranny and violence, the more individuals I find whose lives, families, beliefs, worlds - all ruined by this man, the more I start to think that he was beyond forgivness. His actions on the second Death Star could be consigned to family loyalty and his lingering love of his dead wife rather than any desire for a just galaxy. One action, even one so very significant, should not turn back a lifetime of misdeeds.

At the very least, it was not the place of Luke, Yoda, or even the Force to forgive him for his actions. Only a victim can rightly forgive being victimized, which is one of the reasons murder is unforgivable. That he should be granted a hallowed place at one with the Force, standing so readily by the side of his former masters, without the voices of the departed being weighed in the balance? Does that seem like justice?

There are any number of arguments that could defend him and his redemtion, however - perhaps because the Force is connected to all life, the fact that it saw him as redeemed was indicative of a universal or divine judgement? And what about the prophecy that claims him as the Chosen One? If not for Vader, would not some other servant have taken Palpetine's side? One that wouldn't have cast him into the depths of his own superweapon? Such abstract and highly theoretical and spiritual justifications for what ammounted to cold-blooded murder on a massive scale confuses the facts of the case. If some overarching "power" sets events in motion that require the deaths of millions - nay, billions - to undo just one villain's scheme, then the galaxy is better off without that power at all.

The most important fact that I put forth in this argument is the most undeniable: By our standards, Darth Vader was one of the most callous, murderous, unforgiving villains that could ever have lived. He discriminated not for gender or age in his slaughters, and did not shy away from commiting them with his own hands. The books, shorts, films, and comics that detail - some gruesomely - his atrocities are many, and likely to increase as the time period between episodes 3 and 4 are better explored in the post-ROTS world. They include the murder of children, the torture of innocents, destruction of entire societies, planets, and ways of life, and perhaps worst of all, the twisting of good people into shadows of what they could have been.

He was a co-creator of the Empire, a willing disciple of its' unforgivable Emperor, and entirely guilty of having the chance to avert the disasters that wracked the Star Wars galaxy for decades afterwards when Mace Windu had Palpatine defeated. He was, in my mind, entirely unforgivable, and that the Force would

 

what i find so odd in this type of argumentation is that apparently when you are discriminating for gender and age in your killing sprees it somehow makes them okay?

by extension you seem to say that.

by extension you also say that a little slower forgiving would be appropriate in your entirely subjective view of course, even though murder is wholly unforgiveable. which is it now, really?

oh, and btw, there is divine judgement involved. quite obviously so. (prophecy anyone?)

 

I think you are correct in a lot of what you say however there is a loophole you must underline and it is this: A distinction must be drawn and is drawn in the movies between Anakin Skywalker and DarthVader. The redemption at the end of ROTJ is of Anakin and not Darth Vader, it was Vader who murdered younglings, choked Padmé and so on, there is a definite distinction between the two and this cannot be overlooked. This is not to excuse the actions of Anakin who, lets face it, was hardly the sharpest tool in the jedi box, chosen one or not. Imagine you are a slave to some wretched elephant-humming bird thing on some forgotten dust bowl planet and this Jedi sweeps in and gives you a life you never believed you had a right to expect, you are given access to resources and the doors of power are thrown open to you, you can jump into your very own space craft and be on the other side of the republic in an instant and to top it all off you are elevated to hero status throughout the known galaxy. All that is required of you is that you band together with your brothers and sisters in ensuring peace for those who are unable to achieve it for themselves.

But no, not Anakin, none of this is enough for him, he wants more and all it takes from Palpatine is an appeal to the one organ in Anakin's body capable of doing any thinking (and I'm not talking abou his brain). The sum total of Anakin's experience is anger and violence whenever he doesn't get his own way, there isn't a single person who wouldn't understand his reaction toward the sand people after his mother's death but how he concludes that the Jedi are evil is astounding given that all it is based on is some half baked promise to discover a hidden dark side power from a Sith lord. On the basis of that promise he abandons everything he has been brought up to believe in, to jepordise his own life to defend. And what happens to him after he becomes Vader? He becomes nothing more that a lackey, a yes-man, a lap dog to the whims of the emperor, totally incapable of acting independently or expressing his own will, he cows down and rolls over at the slightest diktat. The smartest thing Anakin did was assert himself in destroying Palpatine and in doing so killing Vader as well, forfeiting his own life became Anakin's redemption, not Vader's.

I know It's a bit convenient to blame all the nasty stuff on Vader as though he has developed some sort of schizophrenia, but you can see that as Vader he is totally bereft of any trace of his former humanity, indeed barely any part of Vader is human and even Obi-Wan concedes that he is more machine than man. When Padmé and Luke refer to the goodness in him they must surely be referring to the part of him that is still Anakin.

Powerful, yes, but intelligent? You have to wonder.

 

No he wasnt forgiven too quickly. There was only 5 minutes left in the movie so they couldn't take any longer with the forgiveness...yeah that's a joke, before anyone flames me haha

 

Divine judgement, multiple personalities, and declaring that morality and forgivness is subjective and thus entirely not our place to judge - all these things are clouds that obscure the real issue.

If some divine force (The Force, as it were) decided that Anakin was now redeemed, then I feel that that force has overstepped its' bounds to make such a judgement. The scale and bredth of Vader's crimes are such that no one entity, individual, or organization could possibly fairly give an all-encompassing decision on wether he should be granted forgivness. Should a despot, even a benevolent one, have the power to unilaterally forgive a mass-murderer?

As for the argument that he was two people, Anakin and Darth Vader, I attribute this to denial. Obi-Wan started this train of thinking when he said that Darth Vader 'destroyed' the good Anakin according to his 'point-of-view'. Of course, his particular point of view was coloured by his love of a good friend and his wish to preserve that memory of the good times before the fall. How many lives might he have spared from Vader's vengeance if he'd simply finished Anakin off on Mustafar? There is not one person here who could convince me they'd forgive someone who murdered their loved ones yet claimed to be under the influence of some dark force or personality conflict.

Lastly, the inevitable 'morality is subjective' argument. Obi-Wan brought up 'Point-of-view', again suggesting that although I might think it unforgivable, that's just my opinion. That is a dangerous argument to employ, however, because 'from a certain point of view', Palpatine was entirely in the right - he streamlined and revitalized a bloated and corrupt government in an attempt to restore order in a chaotic galaxy.

Eventually, even in a world of moral grey areas, we must admit that there is still black and white at either end of the scale, and some things inevitably fall into one or the other. Someone might have an excellent and eloquent justification for their mass-murder that could turn it into an easily debatable grey, but so far as I can see, Vader was the lowest and most base murderous scum in the galaxy short of the Emperor himself. One act of (ultimately irrelevant since the Death Star blew up anyways) defiance does not justify him putting those events into motion himself. If you cannot see the clear injustice of the situation then I ask you to put aside the emotions and pathos of the character and merely look at the facts.

 

of course. being forgiven by a divine force which sees all, knows all and hopes all (paraphrase from corinthians) is a convenience.

the thing you overlook in the silliness of your argument is that it actually happens. you don't criticize divine forces for their omniscience.

you can gape in wonder and you'll have to accept.
granted, for you it seems a tough thing to do, this forgiving business, for the force it isn't.

 

If there's one thing you learn from nearly every form of religion, it's that there are vast differences between the mortal realm and the divine/metaphysical realm, especially when it comes to forgiveness and redemption.

Vader's actions have been truly atrocious. Hypothetically speaking, if he were a tried as a war criminal in a contemporary setting, he would be found guilty, sentenced to life imprisonment, or even executed. And rightly so. As with any other individual, he should be held responsible for his actions.

Take for example David Berkowitz, aka "The Son of Sam", an infamous serial killer who confessed to the murder of six people during the late 1970s. Still in prison where he will likely remain for the rest of his life, he proclaims himself to be a born-again Christian. He refused every parole hearing he was called for, deeming his past actions brutal and that his place is in jail. As of 2005, Berkowitz has been writing his memoirs, donating all proceeds from his book to the victims of his crimes.

Now take Charles Manson, a clearly deranged sociopath who convinced his followers to kill in his name, a man who not only makes no apologies for his actions, but has declared them somehow righteous.

The difference that separates these two mass murderers is a very thin line. Both have committed terrible crimes. Both have proven themselves dangerous to society. Both are in prison where they belong. One, however, admits to the evil of his actions. One seems to have profound regret for what he has done. One is doing what little he can to make amends.

Do I believe David Berkowitz is redeemed? That's debatable, and in no way for me or anyone else to decide. He certainly seems penitent. Does that mean he should be free? Absolutely not! This man has proven himself to be a danger to society in the past, and quite frankly should still pay for his past crimes, which he is doing.

But that's not what we're talking about, here. We're talking about the Force. Call it God, Tao, Brahman, Kharma or Valhalla, they're all connected with the spirit. And the spirit world is more concerned about what lies in your heart.

What I see in Anakin/Vader --at that critical moment on the second Death Star-- is a man who Vader realizes the evil of his ways, who deeply regrets what he has done in the past, and does whatever he can to end that evil. In this case, it is saving his son's life and destroying the Emperor, at the ultimate price of his own life.

My point is this: George Lucas himself pointed out that Anakin is not necessarily a villain in his story, but rather a victim. If you take a closer look at all those evil people and take into consideration the circumstances that led them to be the terrible people that they are (abusive childhoods, traumatic experiences, lost loves, etc.), then you should see people who should be pitied rather than hated.

 

Oh ho! What have we here? The Force has bounds? Set by whom? You?

Do not presume to view the divine (God, Force, ect) as subject to your will. That leads to the Dark Side.


Personally, I think that being burned to a crisp, losing everything and everyone you've held dear, being confined to a tomb-like life support suit (a prison, of sorts), and being forced to serve a man who has ruined his life is punishment enough. I mean, it's like what those soldiers did in Abu Grahb: by continually and needlessly punishing a monster, you become a monster. And no, I'm not refering to Bush.

 

So now my argument is silly, Darth Frarad? Well, I'm afraid I find yours lacking in substance. The Force may be a divine power but I do not have to "Gape in awe and accept". I defy it's judgement, and indeed, take that very judgement as evidence that it lacks the substance and moral fibre to deserve being heeded. The Force may not be subject to my will, but the fact that it is subjected to no one's will, not even the will of the many (And certainly not the will of the victims who might have a say on wether Vader should be forgiven) is just as bad as if it were wielded by a despot or personified by a selfish god.

Maybe my inability to see past the confines of mortality limit my ability to argue this point - perhaps, if I had a greater respect for the difference between a soul at peace and a living criminal serving his time, then I would agree that in death Darth Vader deserves redemption based on the content of his character, not simply his deeds. But I cannot. I am a practical man, and will not be swayed by any talk of gods, prophecy, or divine judgement. Han and Leia even named one of their kids after him! What next, a bridge to honour Tarkin? What about a commemorative coin for Palpatine himself?

Perhaps a compromise argument would be that - should Vader have survived his final battle - he would have deserved jail time or even execution for the nature and bredth of his crimes, but once he leaves the land of the living, then the nature of his character and the circumstances that affected him may enter into consideration. Personally, however, I would not see it as just for history to remember him as anything more than a monster who had a brief attack of conscience.

 

yes, it is a silly argument (see, it's a bit like arguing with my conception. sure, i can criticise it, but it's not really my place and not within my power to change it. therefore it's a silly argument. not because it's your reasons are off)

i understand that you feel this way towards the character and i understand the need for making him suffer.

see, i go by a divine force setting things in motion and people responding to them in their fashion. everyone responds to it differently, but it is not our place to judge what we are being subjected to at all because we have no idea about the whole picture. we might have a divine spark but we lack providence. we are incomplete and humility for me is to accept that incompleteness as a given. it's not to do with saying 'whatever' and being impractical, it's to do with knowing who you are.

spiritual journeys aside, it's fruitless to argue that the force ought not have admitted anakin into the realm of the ghosts as clearly the force deemed otherwise. (i'm personifying here, as a matter of making things a little simpler). we could argue that only those enlightened to the nature of the force will be admitted (it's the interpretation i hold to) or we could argue there's technique behind it.

either way, whatever we come up with in our rather feeble minds and very limited vision, anakin comes out as a force ghost and there's absolutely nothing we can do.

the question i would like to ask you, is how you deem people redeemable? what are the criteria? because for all your practicality and confinement to human judgement you haven't really committed that here. what's the catalogue of sins that are okay and which are beyond redemption? is it number of people? discriminating for gender and age? the length of the act?

you see, i'm not sure you can answer this and not make a case of your ethics being off.

oh, and it's frared

 

Some Jedi you would make.

Your argument disregards the involvement of the metaphysical, of things more powerful than ourselves like love and redemption, when this topic (indeed, Star Wars itself) has everything to do with just that.

But let's forget that for a second. Forget the spirit-world, forget the realities of the world. Do you really consider Vader's final moments "a brief attack of conscience?" You really don't think he was profoundly changed by that experience?

 

for a fleeting moment i thought you were talking to me

Do you really consider Vader's final moments "a brief attack of conscience?" You really don't think he was profoundly changed by that experience?

the thing that i really cannot get my head around is that personally i believe in order to do what he did, much of what he does before has to happen. it would render his acts very shallow if they were all just paintings by numbers, saving luke would not have the impact on him if he hadn't duelled before, hadn't tried to have him join his ranks etc etc.

so, he has to understand who he is in order to be enlightened.

but, if he has to cause so much suffering on him and on others in order to become enlightened enough to be himself, really, it's quite the prize to pay, right?
maybe lucas has created a loophole there.

 

Personally, I think deep down inside the one thing Vader hates more than anything else is himself. I think he believes himself to be so far gone that there's no hope for him to come back. That's why he tells Luke "It is too late for me, my son." He is forever trapped by the darkness, which is symbolized in the suit that sustains his life, and as far as he's concerned he deserves it. He masks this incredible guilt and self-loathing through denial and self-justification. He's convinced himself that the Jedi are evil, that the Empire has restored peace and order to the galaxy.

 

I'm not sure I really understand the question of the thread. Asking whether he should be able to be redeemed is more of a legitimate question IMHO. Being forgiven isn't down to anyone but those who forgive him. It can't be too quick or too long. If he is forgiven, which he was, then you can't argue with that. Forgiving is a very important thing to do. It helps you move on. It certainly aided Luke. There's no point in hating people for the rest of your life. It makes matters worse.

So no, I don't think Vader was forgiven too quickly. Whether he was acutaully forgiven by the galaxy as a whole is another question. But his son and old Jedi friends certainly forgave him.

Did he deserve to join the netherworld of the force? I don't believe its a case of that. In the end he did the right thing and was able to let go and be compassionate. Those attributes IMO are all that anyone needs to be able to pass on into the netherworld. But of course we should also look to Kenobi and Yoda who, due to their forgiveness, helped retrieve Anakins spirit and thus aided him in joining the force as well as retaining his identity.

 

Excellent post!!! Well done, Master Shaitan. That's what I've been trying to say, but couldn't find the right words.

 

I don't think people matter that much in the equation, it has more to do with being redeemed through the Force, rather than having humans forgive you for your actions. Anakin was conceived by the Force in order to bring balance to it, which, as the Jedi interpret the Prophecy, means destroying the Sith. If that's what the Universe wanted, it doesn't matter if he killed 2 or 2 million people in the process, as long as order is maintained at the end of the day. Life means nothing to nature, animals kill females and children all the time. Why should the Force treat people in the GFFA any different?

 

Master_Shaitan, you have a point but i do think that forgiving someone right away, or forgiving them after years is a difference. forgiveness isn't forgiveness no matter what - time does contribute to it.

 

Well, Vader is supposed to be a badass. He's not Anakin, he's a different person at the time. He has been hurt and betrayed beyond belief and unleashes his hurt, anger and frustration in horrible ways. I'm sure everyone has had moments where they are so depressed or angry that they don't care what they do or who they hurt, can you imagine being in Vaders dark metallic boots?

1.Anakin sacrificed his career as Jedi knight, betraying his family, friends and mentors so he could 'free the galaxy' of corruption and save his wife and child from dying. Then padme says she doesn't agree with what he's doing or who he's become. His whole sacrifice is in vain within the end because she dies anywaise, by his hands. Thats a huuuuuge guilt trip there.

2.He was unable to save his mother in AOTC and vows to never be so powerless again. Even though vaders evil, he's very very powerful.

Also the darkside corrupts people and changes there thinking. You can even see at the end of ROTS Anakin isn't thinking straight anymore, he can't even hide his evil intentions from padme even though deep down he knows she wouldn't agree to ruling the galaxy with him. He became power hungry very quickly.

Anywaise I'm defending Anakins actions because the farther you fall the less in control you are. He's supposed to be evil, and Ben and Yoda both know vader isn't Anakin, that deep down Anakin doesn't want to be doing what he's doing. Vader gives up on life, and on his old self because he feels he can never go back on what he's done, he can never bring padme back and never replace the thousands and thousands of lives he's taken. He feels its no use, he's been doing the 'evil thing' for a good 20 years, why stop now. I mean, up until Luke he had no one to stop for. When he destroys the Empire, sure it doesn't completely make up for everything he's done but its a step in the right direction. He frees the galaxy and gives the Rebels the upper hand against destroying the evil Empire. Sure he helped establish and mass it, but atleast he realized his mistakes and finally had the courage and strength to throw the first stone. That atones for what he did because he's finally redeemed himself, finally broke the shackles which kept him down in darkness for years. The fact that he did that meant Vader was no more,and that Anakin was alive once again.

 

The problem with this argument is that it applies earthly values of punishment in the afterlife (seen mostly in christian religions). The force is not God, and it doesn't chose who's good and who's bad and send them to heaven or hell. Anakin retaining his consious was because of Yoda and Ben. The Jedi do not hate or hold on to anger for people.

 

First, regarding the Force as impersonal, that's actually up for debate. After all, Qui-Gon refers to the "Will of the Force". How can an impersonal energy field have a concious will? Perhaps the Force is more than Ben says it is in ANH.

Second, I personally doubt that Ben and Yoda had anything to do with Ani's survival beyond death. Given their views earlier, they seem to have given up on Ani. Why aid someone whom they believe is already dead and gone?

Third, you can't really distinguish between Ani and Vader. Same man, different names. Ani didn't have a multiple personality disorder. He just decided to distance himself from his painful past by saying, "I'm not him anymore. He's someone else." Doesn't make it true, though.

Fourth, regarding Ani's redemption, it seems to me to run along Christian principles. A good comparison would be the second thief crucified with Christ. He was clearly a criminal and most likely led a dishonest life. But, in the end, he recognized his sin, accepted his punishment, and asked Christ to show mercy. In response, He granted him Divine forgiveness and redemption in return for a genuine acceptance of salvation. It's somewhat the same with Ani; he realized his sin and his crimes and made an act of repentance by saving Luke, giving up his own life in the process. In return, his faith was rewarded by survival beyond death. (As a side note, I tend to think that the Force afterlife isn't solely populated by Ben, Yoda, Qui-Gon and Ani. I'm sure there are others who found peace and survival in Force Heaven, if you will.)

Finally, in all likelihood, Ani will never be forgiven by everyone. That's up to them and it's a purely personal matter. But no one can say he wasn't punished for his sins. He had his limbs amputated, was burned alive, suffered permanent disabling injuries, lost his wife to a premature death, had to work for the tyrant who lead him to disaster, was separated from his children for many years, lived with a terrible sense of self-loathing and sorrow, was humiliated in battle, was electrocuted, and finally died. Our society wouldn't subject the worst murderer on Earth to such a penalty. He was ultimately redeemed, but he surely suffered for what he did.

Well, that's my view anyway...

 

I regard the Force as a force of nature (no pun intended), so I like to think of the will of the Force as a river. The Will of the Force is a natural path of progression, and the Jedi do their best to follow the current (natural path) of that river. The Sith move against that current and try to move things to the way they want it. In all, the Will of the Force is an enigmatic thing, and you can't know the will of the Force for certain any more than you can decypher the will of God for certain.

It's interesting to note that the word "Sin" in Greek means "missing the mark." By that sense, we are all trying to reach Enlightment/the Kingdom of Heaven/becoming One with the Force, and sometimes we get sidetracked, but that doesn't mean that we can't find our way back to that path. No matter who we are, no matter what we've done, forgiveness is never beyond your grasp if your heart is genuine. All it takes is an acknowledgement of your misdeeds (guilt and regret), a genuine desire to atone for your sins and an acceptance of punishment, even be it your death.

 

just because the force forgave him dosen't mean the public will forgive or that they have too,you think the public is going to care that he brought balance to the force after all he did.

 

I never said that. When did I say that? I never argued that the people should forgive him. I argued the difference between public/mortal forgiveness and spiritual forgiveness.