PT Was Valorum useless to the core? Or did Palpatine influence the senate against him?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by BoromirsFan, Mar 6, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    If Valorum was a weak Chancellor even without Palpatine's machinations then its sad...but it reminds me of many real world parallels where a weak ruler is blamed for the problems and is traded for a more extreme replacement.....causing even more problems!
  2. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I'm inclined to think that Valorum was a competent Chancellor, although perhaps not the greatest the Republic had had. Palpatine saw weakness in him and moved to exploit it by manipulating the bureaucracy to work against him.
  3. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    According to official sources, Palpatine manipulated a number of senators into turning their backs on Valorum. "Cloak of Deception", a novel that takes place prior to TPM, sheds some light on this.





    Light - it is shed
    /LM
  4. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I read cloak of deception. Great novel.

    Don't remember much of it! ;P

    All i remember is the fabled pre-AOTC lightsaber colors used for the various jedi council members, vergere, etc.

    Thanks for answering my question though :D
  5. Cryogenic Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 4
    *SPOILERS*

    From http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/better-part-valor-discretion -->

  6. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    "Useless to the core" [face_laugh]

    I think he was a somewhat effective politician who had someone really conniving (Palpatine) deftly use his weaknesses against him... and really the weaknesses of the Senate as a whole, too.
  7. shanerjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2010
    star 4
    In the shooting script for TPM, Palpatine mentions a manufactured scandal surrounding the chancellor.

    That term suggests the scandal surrounding Valorum is a bunch of Bantha hooey cooked up by his enemies....*ahem*.
  8. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I also think that Valorum's screen time and lack of leaving an impression also contributes to his supposed "weak" and "useless" persona.

    He's just there while Palpatine is chewing up scenery! :)
  9. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Valorum comes across as inconsistent, at the start the senate can't resolve a tax dispute and trade blockade.
    So he decides "**** it, I'm sending these two Jedi to settle the matter." So here he shows strength and resolve. And this was when it only was a tax dispute/blockade.
    But when Qui-Gon comes back and informs him that things are now much worse. That war has broken out and the TF have conquered Naboo and could very well plan to attack other planets.
    This is a far more serious situation and given this severity why doesn't he call the Jedi as witnesses or push harder? The republic has not got an army but the TF do and they showed themselves willing to use it. If the TF is not stopped, who knows how many will die?

    Regards
    Nordom
  10. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Valorum is already facing incriminating accusations and if he calls Qui-Gon and Obi-wan as witnesses, Everyone in the Senate will know that he sent 2 Jedi to Naboo without consulting them first. They'll accuse Valorum of treason and abuse of power which will then lead to what we just saw in TPM with the senators voting Valorum out of office.
  11. Teegirloo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 6
    Palpatine already had the senate in his pocket before he even set foot as Chancellor. Valorum was a bit weak but the situation was out of his control. Even if he was a competent leader the odds were stacked against him from the start. Palpatine was smart and conniving. Once he had Padme enter a vote of no confidence it was all over for Valorum.
  12. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Treason? Nothing in the film suggest that what Valorum did was in any way illegal, much less treason.
    He sent two Jedi to try and negotiate an end of the blockade, that's it. All we know is that he did this without consulting the senate. BUT we do not know if this is in violation of any laws or regulations.
    Perhaps the chancellor can do such things on his own authority, afterall he is the head of the republic.

    IF it was illegal then Nute could simply send the Jedi away on the grounds that their missions was illegal.
    Also, the TF did not seemed suprised that ambassadors from the senate was coming, what they did not know was that they were Jedi. If an official senate vote was needed to send ambassadors and since the TF has a man in the sneate, they would know that the senate had not ok any such thing. Lastly, if this was so illegal, grounds for treason even, then Palpatine need not bother with the treaty or Padme, he has got all he needs to remove Valorum. But he didn't, instead he waited around and sent Maul to get Padme.

    In all, there is no basis for these claims that Valorum was doing something illegal and besides, the republic was at WAR! I would think this would matter a bit more than a suposed breach or protocoll.

    Regards
    Nordom

  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Palpatine is only toying with Valorum and is just waiting for the right moment to oust him. Valorum's unauthorized use of the Jedi would be considered industrial espionage and is punishable by law. Nute Gunray can't inform the senate that the ambassadors are Jedi for they would expose his illegal invasion of Naboo and he would be in big trouble. Palpatine couldn't prove to the senate that Chancellor Valorum sent 2 Jedi in secret since he has no evidence so he had to rely on Padme's vote of no confidence to get rid of Valorum.
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Is there any indication in either the films or the EU that the Chancellor can't order the Jedi on a mission without Senate approval? I haven't seen any. The opening crawl of TPM says that the Jedi were sent secretly--not illegally.

    As far as Valorum, per the EU he was way too beholden to special interests to be as effective as he should have been. He wasn't weak per se, just a sellout.
  15. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    Industrial espionage? You are making less and less sense.
    The Jedi were sent to try and negotiate a lifting of the Naboo blockade, not spy on the TF. You still have not presented any evidence that the chancellor can not send the Jedi on missions, something that Palpatine does on more than one occasion.

    When the jedi ship apporached Naboo, Nute could send them away imideatly and then inform the TF representative in the senate that the chancellor sent ambassadors illegaly.
    This could be done BEFORE the invasion. In fact Nute would have been informed before the ship even approached Naboo. This message would be evidence that Palpatine can use against Valorum. "See, this message shows that the chancellor sent ambassadors to Naboo without asking the senate, he is a traitor, arrest him!"
    Also right after the invasion Palpatine's plan was to capture Padme, have her sign some treaty and then he could use this somehow. The plan to use Padme he only thought of when Padme arrived on Corsucant, which was days later.

    Regards
    Nordom

  16. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    I like the framing of one part of the TPM Senate scene. Valorum and his advisers tower over the pod with Palpatine and Amidala on it, which I get the feeling symbolises that Valorum at first holds more power than the two Nubians.
    Very contrasting to the scene where Sidious appoints himself Emperor in ROTS, triumphantly raising his arms and standing dominant over the whole Senate.
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The fact that Valorum sent the Jedi to Naboo in secret would give the impression that he sent them to spy on the Trade Federation. You really think that noone is going to be raising eyebrows if they found out that Valorum's 2 ambassadors are Jedi? Bill Clinton was almost impeached from office for having a secret affair with his intern, Monica Lewinsky and the same thing would've happened to Valorum if the senators knew that he sent the Jedi on a secret mission. Palpatine is different because he has taken all power and authority from the Republic so no one will have any say on how he does his job. Nute Gunray and the other TF members were freaking out when that 3PO-lookalike told them the ambassadors are Jedi and it's too late for them to inform the Senate of who the ambassadors are knowing that Obi-wan and Qui-Gon will expose their illegal occupation. That's why they contacted Sidious instead and he gave the order to have the Jedi killed so that they won't get a chance to gather evidence.
  18. Nordom Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2004
    star 4
    You are still making little sense.
    a) Doing something in secret is NOT the same as doing something illegal. If you go to the bathroom in secret have you then broken the law? Until you can PROVE that the sending of the Jedi was illegal, you have no case here.
    b) Why would people care that two Jedi were sent instead of two regular officials?
    The mission is the same, negotiate with the TF to lift the blockade. Are Jedi NEVER used to help in negotiations? The Jedi serve the republic and the senate so why can't they be used for these kinds of missions?
    c) Having a secret affair with an intern and then lying about it is hardly the same as sending jedi on missions. And the big deal about the impeachment was about if Clinton had lied or not, not the affair itself.
    d) In AotC, BEFORE Palpatine gets the extra powers, he is able to send Jedi on missions WITHOUT asking the senate. And noone makes any claims that by so doing he is breaking any laws.
    e)You are wrong, at the start of TPM, the occupation has not happened yet, there was still only a blockade and this was known to the senate. So the Jedi can not expose anything. Why the TF guys got scared is because they thought that the Jedi would Force a settlement and the BLOCKADE would be over. The TF guys are such cowards that they can apparently not simply tell the Jedi to get lost. And this is why Sidious told them to kill the Jedi, if the blockade is removed then the big crisis is over and he looses something to remove Valorum with.
    Add to this, IF the sending of the Jedi was so illegal, then let them settle the dispute and take that back to the senate. Then Palpatine or one of his goons can say "Valorum sent two Jedi without asking, this settlement is proof, he is a traitor!" And Valorum gets removed. This did not happen and Valorum was hoping that the Jedi would be able to solve the matter. If his actions was so illegal then he has just signed his own resignation.

    In closing, you have NOT presented any evidence at all that Valorum did anything remotely illegal. And nothing IN the film supports this reasoning.

    Regards
    Nordom

  19. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    I've long been an enemy of the PT. Having said that, I read Cloak of Deception earlier this year and found it quite enjoyable. In fact, I think it would've made for a far superior film than The Phantom Menace.

    Perhaps a combination of the two stories would've been ideal since there is no Anakin or Jedi/Sith lightsaber duel in Cloak of Deception.

    Personally speaking, I've always liked the politics of the PT. I know that many don't/didn't. The idea being that it somehow takes/took from the action. But for me, action should only serve to compliment story, and not the other way around.

    So I think you should give CoD a read. It answers a lot about Valorum. It also delves in the Republic's downfall due to personal greed (senators), selfishness (concern over particular star systems over others) and general apathy.
  20. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2010
    star 4
    Valorum had good intentions but problems with political pressures. Just politics, really.
  21. EHT New Films Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2007
    star 6
    Agreed. I was going to write more, but noticed that my original post in here still sums it up for me:

  22. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    He seemed like he wanted to be an honest man, but he also seemed like he was being controlled by the corrupt senators. I always felt he tried to do right by sending the two Jedi Knights in secret, hoping they would mediate and quell the problem on Naboo, instead of sending political figures to represent the Republic.
  23. darth_mccartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2008
    star 2
    I think he was fit for purpose and had the best of intentions...until pesky Palpatine started stirring the pot...!
  24. Lumiyas_Head Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2007
    star 2
    Cloak of Deception reveals that Chancellor Valorum was denied the right to dispatch Jedi without the approval of the Senate. So yes, what he did was technically illegal. The Jedi, however, were loyal to Valorum to a fault and accepted his request because of that fact. Palpatine can dispatch Jedi on missions before Attack of the Clones because that was a right of the Chancellor. It was an act that could ultimately be suspended by the Senate though.
  25. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 1
    I think the idea is that he was a good politician and well intentioned but out of his depth.
    Zeta1127 likes this.
Moderators: Bazinga'd
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.