PT Was Yoda smart in sending Obi Wan to Mustafar?

It's a funny video. I love that "Drunken Jedi Master" version that was made:





For all the piling on, I think people's fascination and amusement did conceal a certain level of affection for the guy.


But what people say, do, and admit to are all different things...

Only Rey's Mary Sueness could possibly bring that kid's wild exploits with a washing pole to a swift end.

 

Apparently Nick Gillard did his fight choreography. Is that guy still working? Probably a stuntman for Bulgarian tv after his PT efforts.

 

There you go -- always so keen to remind us how much love for the prequels you carry inside you.

A cynic counts the misses and ignores the hits. You do know that Lucas set up that confrontation between Palpatine and the Jedi very, very quickly, don't you?

Let's forget about all the great duels that Gillard brilliantly choreographed, from the epic confrontations "Duel of the Fates" and "Battle of the Heroes", to the more stripped-down fights with Dooku, Grievous, and Qui-Gon's first encounter with Maul (the first "duel" of the saga in story order), Obi-Wan fighting Jango in the rain, all the combat in the arena on Geonosis, and all the styles of lightsaber combat highlighted in smaller confrontations between Jedi, Battle Droids, and assorted beasties.

And hell, I won't let you get away with trashing the duel in Palpatine's office, either. The Jedi are dispatched with great speed, but I like the ragged duel that emerges between Palpatine and Mace. I enjoy the fact it is largely done in close-ups, is tough, trashy, sleazy, and brutal.

Then let's overlook all the bonding that occurred between the actors because of their preparatory work/training, not to mention the fact that Gillard trained a variety of actors of varying age and competency, and that no-one suffered a serious injury, despite the fast pace of the shooting schedule, the intensity of some of those duels, and the tough learning curve.

All in all, some very great work, I'd say.

 

DD ignores Cryogenic 's Mary Sue bait & then immediately gets him hook line & sinker. Love it

 

Well, you bait people in every post.

At least you're now admitting it. That's progress!

 

If you're going to throw some out there (unsuccessfully) then I'll gladly follow suit

 

Apparently, your idea of "ignoring" is to directly quote my bait.

Interesting.

 

Seriously though, I don't think Gillard did a great job. There were hits as well as misses but overall the fights were underwhelming. Characters too often looked like they were going through the motions of a rehearsed scene. & yes, that Palpatine confrontation with the 3 muppets was a debacle.

 

I don't know. This isn't really the thread for it, anyway.

And you seem to like trying to rouse people into a fight -- a fight over lasersword fights.

Calling the Jedi "muppets" twice over? Well, whatever works to bait people into responding, I suppose.

 

They were made to look & act like muppets in that scene. As opposed to highly skilled Jedi Masters.

 

Palps vs the Jedi masters is by many magnitudes of an order hands down the WORST choreographed light saber fight in the entire series. It was already proven that Ian McDirmand's stunt double was sick that day and they had to cobble together something quickly so it explains why they couldn't choregraph a fight between the other masters. It's a shame that such a pivotal moment in the saga suffered for it.

 

I cried hard when those 3 Jedi n00bs died. Not because it was sad but I realized ROTS would never live up to the dank, I mean dark Ewok battle and emotional pull of Leia killing Stormtrooper 3468. So much emotion, so much pain. The 80s truly were the best decade. I hate the 2000s. I spent days locked in my mom's basement writing letters to George how he killed my childhood. I cried so hard that the most pivotal moment in the the saga where Anakin is redeemed with the best actor of the OT, Sebastian Shaw was ruined by Hayden Christensen. Sebastian was the reason why I like Anakin. I was watching ANH back in 1978, and was like WOW! THIS IS EMOTIONAL. SEBASTAIN SHAW SHOULD BE VADER! Then Hayden traveled back to 1983 and took over ROTJ, and ruined this dark, violent brutal depiction of civil war with the kid friendly childish Jar Jar infested ROTS. I never saw ROTS but RLM made a serial killer joke so I knew a sociopath like me could relate and I gave my soul to those reviews and that's why I'm here.

 

Pivotal moment? Yeah, behind the 1416 other pivotal moments, maybe. The point is that the Jedi there are useless and Palpatine leaps high then sweeps low to enter the fray and wipes them out in a repeat of Obi-Wan exiting his Jedi starfighter and annihilating those unfortunate Battle Droids in the hangar. There are numerous connections between Palpatine and Obi-Wan (Palpatine even mentions Obi-Wan by name shortly afterward). Plus, the Jedi were confined in a very small space, and likely confused with all the Force "chatter" between themselves. That's a theme. People need a bit of space to be themselves and function correctly. The Jedi tried hemming Palpatine in and it failed miserably for them. Note how Mace quickly retreats to the antechamber: a more spacious environment. Visual storytelling at its finest.

 

I honestly always thought it better if both Obi-Wan and Yoda took on the Emperor together, then taking out Vader after. It never made sense to me why Yoda decided to one on one with Palpatine.

 

Excuses for terrible choreography & fight staging. Those Jedi look like punters off the street who were holding a lightsaber for the first time. Rather than experts. Comparing them to useless battledroids says it all.

 

Good point heels. What I love about TPM duel too is that there's barely any close up shots. You get to see the entire duel's beautiful choreography all in its glory. Even in AOTC, while I wish the duel was longer, I really love the Obi-Wan vs. Dooku part the best. I wish the Anakin part didn't have so many close up shots but I guess the Yoda part makes up for it. I think the ROTS Dooku duel is pretty impressive on its own and has the distinctive award for being a duel in the beginning of the movie. The Grievous duel is short and kinda clunky but the fistfight is sooooo cool. I really love the Prequels had a lot of hand to hand combat.

I don't mind the Mace vs. Palpatine duel, it's decent for what it is and it's not even the WORSE choreography out of all 7. I'm sure if ya analyze, you can find awkward moments in and we all 7. The Anakin Vs. Obi-Wan duel to me is pretty flawless and, maybe slightly ridiculous, but it really pushed the envelope and set the bar pretty high for the Greatest Lightsaber Duel possible. My gripersonal is there is a bit too many close up shots, so it's hard to appreciate the full choreography but I'm so sucked into the film and watched it so much, that the choreography is already imprinted in my brain, so I don't notice too much.

 

From a pure human-to-human dueling perspective, I honestly think that the TPM duel was the best of the prequels. And then the problem for the following movies became that the bar had been set way too high to ever be able to match. The TPM duel had a few things that I think make for a good duel: emotional weight, good choreography, and a "story" within the duel. The "story" was that Obi-Wan got knocked away from the duel and was rushing to play catch-up, but didn't make it in time; there was a lot of tension during that moment in the hallway when they're all just waiting for the laser shields (sorry I forgot what they're called) to go down. Once they do, Obi-Wan still doesn't make it in time and he, along with the audience, are forced to nervously watch Qui-Gon go at it alone. The tension in this moment is really highlighted by the lack of music; normally, we can look to the music for a hint at what's going to happen, but there's none here, and so anything could happen. Once Qui-Gon is struck down, there's an emotional change in Obi-Wan that is evident by his ferocious dueling. At the end, there's even a bit of problem-solving as Obi-Wan calls on his master's old lightsaber to get the job done once he leaps out of the pit. It was a great duel, all in all.

The Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel, on the other hand, didn't seem to have a "story" within the duel. They seem to just be fighting from one location to the next. And I get that it's supposed to be master vs. former pupil, and brother vs. brother, but these aspects don't really seem to come into play during the actual duel itself. I liked Obi-Wan's "you were the Chosen One" speech after the duel was over, but the duel itself felt more like pure spectacle that went on for too long. And the choreography, at times, was so fast that it felt way too rehearsed and not like something the characters were actually doing. The issue with close-up shots has been mentioned above, but I think it goes beyond that. There are moments where all the following are true: there is a close-up, there is fast choreography, and there is dark lighting. And when all of those are true, the duel becomes difficult to actually follow and looks more like a flurry of blue glows moving all over the screen.

Regarding the Mace vs. Palpatine duel, I actually like it. The choreography is admittedly rushed, but the moment itself is unsettling because Palpatine has finally revealed himself to the Jedi. His "battle roar" at the beginning was also creepy and the cramped environment kind of increased the tension. Overall, I like it more than the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel.

 

Lucas himself makes the comparison to droids various times in the prequel. Dex, for instance, tells Obi-Wan that Kamino "should be easy enough to find, even for those droids in your archives." So there is Dex comically equating the Jedi to robots. When Maul duels with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon, it's intercut with Anakin screeching, "It's on automatic pilot!" And Maul flings the head of a Battle Droid at the control panel to open the big reactor doors. In the Mustafar duel, a droid appears momentarily as Anakin and Obi-Wan awkwardly engage each other on some thin piping, and Anakin later rides one of them which promptly flees the moment Anakin leaps onto the platform to beat down on Obi-Wan. Palaptine attacking the Jedi in his tight office quarters is like some reprise of both Obi-Wan leaping out his starfighter and balletically swiping those first few Battle Droids and he and Anakin slaughtering those unfortunate droids stuck in the elevator. The Jedi obviously cluster together with Mace, their "captain", to mindlessly arrest Palpatine, much as Battle Droids often appear in small groups before becoming fodder for the bright end of a Jedi's laser sword. There's a visual theme here as well about death in a tight space; death in boxes. Those Battle Droids, as mentioned, die to the Jedi in a confined elevator car; there's the seduction of Anakin in an opera box; there's the Jedi dying like flies in their close encounter with Palpatine; and Anakin is shut up inside a death box -- a space suit sarcophagus -- at the end of the movie. The movies are full of interesting themes like these.

Funny, in the Grievous encounter, I actually like the short and clunky blade engagement more. I thought it was a bit too perfunctory in 2005, but I developed more of a liking for it on repeat watches in recent years. Love the fury of Grievous' intimidating swirling, which turns out to be a bit of theatre on his part, which Obi-Wan is ready for, jabbing his lone lightsaber blade into the maelstrom, stopping Grievous cold (a nice Indy-ish moment (Indy against the fancy sword guy); and presages Obi-Wan's steady resistance to Anakin's furious blows on Mustafar). Also dig the music and Obi-Wan's leaping and twisting and quickly dispensing with two of Grievous' hands; and, of course, those amazing close-ups that follow. I love all three of AOTC's duels (sort of like a layer cake), and the TPM duel is virtually impeccable, in my opinion. Also love the first duel, which is edited more like a tone poem, a blur of primary colours and brown robes, and the odd hint of a face, between Qui-Gon and Maul on the outskirts of Mos Espa; and that super-wide shot of them from within the cockpit of the Queen's ship. A brilliant sequence in its own right. One of those sequences that shows just how much fuel Lucas had in the tank when he came back to Star Wars for his "Phase Two".

The Mace vs. Palpatine duel is definitely a bit ragged, zesty, and almost comical -- but that's the appeal of it. Love the close-ups, love Palpatine's jabbing style, love the whole idea that Palpatine is mocking the delicate "Jedi Arts" (as Grievous did in speech), and the music, in my opinion, couldn't be more tense or exciting.

The Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel is sumptuously staged. Is there a better environment than Mustafar for stressing the sheer craziness of two "brothers" fighting to the death? The forbidding harshness of the environment underscores the madness that they are bringing upon themselves. The staging, in my opinion, is fantastic.

You and Deliveranze might enjoy the following essay. One of the greatest monographs on the prequels I've ever read:

https://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2012/02/11/notes-on-the-duel-of-the-fates/

Personally, I think the staging and the music do a lot to carry it all. Their personal battle might lack some of the clarity of the TPM duel, and the simplicity of, say, the reprise duel between Anakin and Dooku on the Invisible Hand (look how much variation in these duels there truly is), but there's still some bite. And I think the overall construction stresses more the plain wrongness of it (blue-on-blue) than anything else. All has become blurred. "There are heroes on both sides". This is the culmination of everything tragic in these films.

Yes. It's a very kludgy duel, but that's an essential part of it, in my opinion. Kinetic kabuki.

 

Cryogenic I absolutely love the clunky Grievous duel too. THE CGI looks amazing and it's like TCW live action. Watching Obi and Grievous duel was a blast. The Utapau scenes in general are phenomenal. DAMN straight it's so dense. There are so many layers in that sinkhole, it's like industrial, desert and almost fungi-looking with red light roads and strange architecture. ONE of the greatest planets that SW contains.

I love the tension of the Mace and Palps duel too. The fate of the galaxy rests in their hands and everytime I watch it, I'm so sure Mace is gonna hold his own until the moment Anakin arrives


I agree on Mustafar too. I don't have an issue that the duel is going all over the place. It's so impressive they managed to pull it off back in 2005 and it still looks pretty great today. The ash in the air, burning embers, the sweat, the robes losing their purity and becoming ragged and worn from the lava. Perfect set up to me and, despite "Dammit! Zoom out so I can the saber fight clearly" moments, the duel is 100% perfection.

 

Oh, Del...!!! You're completely singing my tune here. Yes. Abso-bloody-lutely!!!!!!!!!

Utapau is absolutely one of my favourites, too.

Takes me right back to my first viewing in 2005.

Nice. Your little list reminds me that there are so many elements at play.

And that last one: "Robes losing their purity and becoming ragged". Wonderful symbolism again.

 

Thanks to your always insightful and amazing posts, I've learned to see why I love the PT's abstractness.

Damn I wish I was able to see it back in 2005. In all fairness tho, PG-13 was pretty intense back in the early 2000s compared to now. I just remember reading Anakin chops Dooku's head off, kills kids and gets burned alive. Needless to say, my 7 year old brain was going in all directions and the moment the trailers started, I ran out crying


Haha. Thank you very much Cryo. An honor to recieve praise from the PT section's, rightfully so, most high profile member.

 

That's very gratifying to hear.

I foresee you will become a great Jedi Knight.

(You already are).

Well, damn.

You didn't miss much, aside from... everything.

Seriously, though, my first viewing was a bit drab. Smallish screen/auditorium, sparsely populated (worse than Tatooine), and sound very undercranked, like they were saving on speaker cone foil. Still, the film had a very big impact. And I got to see it again, in better surroundings, which was terrific!

That's doing me a very great honour. I'll try and calm down. To be on the Council at my age, it's never happened before.

Thank you very much, Del. I just do what I do. I don't seem to be doing much of anything else.