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Lit Wasted Potential

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Chewbacca89, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 2012
    According to Wookiepedia:

    When Kenobie was 13 he was initialy sent to the Jedi Service Corps, specifically the AgriCorps. To be a farmer. This seems, to me at least, like a complete wast of Jedi Potential. Obi-Wan Kenobi later grew to be one of the most powerfull Jedi of all time. So if a Jedi is not selected by a master their fate is to be shunned from the Order to go do manual labor? This just kind of annoys me. I wonder how many potential Jedi, who could have done great things for the galaxy, were never given the chance. I wonder how many infuriated teanagers, whose dreams were destroyed, turned to the dark side for consolation.
     
  2. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jul 24, 2005
    I don't like the implication that failing to become a warrior-diplomat makes you worthless. It's not wasted potential, or "shunning", if that's what you're genuinely most suited to.

    Anyone who ends up in the Service Corps and feels content there should be in the Service Corps. Anyone who ends up in the Service Corps, can't get over the fact their "dreams were destroyed", and turns to the dark side as a result demonstrates exactly why their becoming a Jedi Knight would have been a phenomenally bad idea.

    Jedi put a lot of faith in the Force and the powers of destiny, too. I suspect they'd point to Obi-Wan's example as evidence that the Force is self-correcting. "There's no such thing as luck". ;)
     
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  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I'm sure it would've been a great comfort to baby Ludi after she was kidnapped from her parents that she had a long life ahead of her as a farmer, and that this was what the Force had intended for her. Indeed, it is wonderful that the decisions of the infallible Jedi Council are endorsed by the Force itself. After being raised from infancy to believe in the greater wisdom of the Jedi Council, baby Ludi would have assuredly realized that a life of labor was in her best interests.

    It's a little wonder that the Jedi don't waste their time freeing slaves. They're too busy running the galaxy's most efficient slave racket.
     
  4. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    First off, I am going by the accounts and opinions of people who feel like they have been shunned by the Order. Who do the Jedi Order think they are to tell a teanager "You can go do manual labor for us for the rest of your life. Have fun." What kind of judgemental group can send a child away to essentially work as slave labor?
     
  5. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    The existence of the Agriculture Corps has always been one of the more troubling elements of the Jedi Order for me, personally. I have to wonder if the Jedi would be willing to let an Agriculture Corps bound Jedi, y'know, go home. By that point, would they feel that the apprentice had gained enough knowledge in the Force to be a danger to those around them? Do the Jedi feel that a failed Jedi can become nothing between a humble farmer or a raving lunatic Dark Jedi?

    Of course, I don't think many would choose to go home, since most are brought up to identify the Jedi Order as their family. No doubt most sent there end up filling content, because they had been brought up to believe that serving the Jedi, serving the Force, is the only true priority in life. But surely there are other ways to serve the Force than thinly veiled slave labor; send the kid back to their family. Give them a chance to try something else.
     
  6. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    Of course they could. Dooku and many others have walked away from the Order.

    No one in the Jedi Order is a slave. Wookieepedia also states that membership in the Service Corps is voluntary and it's sourced.

    I'd also like to point out that there are other branches of the Service Corps, those being the Medical Corps, the Educational Corps and the Exploration Corps. Obviously each student would be placed in the branch most suited for them. The Exploration Corps sounds kinda awesome, sign me up. I know for sure that many people enjoy teaching, so they'd probably like the Educational Corps. Anybody who enjoys taking care of people might like the Medical Corps. Obviously the Agricultural Corps would be for those who like to work with soil and watch things grow. Really, it doesn't sound bad at all. Some Jedi might be at their most content in these roles, they might feel a closer connection to the Force working with the environment, encouraging life to grow, or researching in the Jedi Archives, or exploring the Unknown Regions or healing the sick.

    I'm sure a lot more of them would actually enjoy the Service Corps than some of you realize, it's a chance to continue using the Force and serving the Order they grew up in. After growing up feeling and using the Force, I'm sure many wouldn't want to do anything else.
     
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  7. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    Even though the Service Corps are "voluntary", I can't see many walking away. The issue, as a previous poster touched on, is that these kids are brain washed into thinking the being a Jedi (or member of the Service Corps) is the ONLY was to serve the Force. Most of these kids have never know life outside the Order. How can they make an informed desicion about that? Also, Kenobi wasn't pleased at all about being assigned toe the Ag Corps. Did he show any interest in dirt?
     
  8. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    I'm not familiar with the Kenobi material you're referencing and it's not really relevant anyway. Kenobi went on to become a Jedi Master on the Jedi High Council.

    I think "brainwashed" is a bit strong. I don't see Jedi children as any more brainwashed than any other child. We're all brought up to believe in the values our parents taught us.

    Most kids have never known life outside of whatever upbringing they experienced, yet we all go out on our own and learn to survive.

    The same way we all make informed decisions without personal experience, research.

    I'm just not seeing any of this as tragic.
     
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  9. instantdeath

    instantdeath Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 22, 2010
    It should be noted that this is presented as a highly unorthodox thing to do; so rare indeed that they have their own group, The Lost Twenty. It's certainly not something that's generally approved of, though of course it's possible failed Jedi aren't counted among the Lost, but even so, just the ominous name is surely enough steer the average Jedi away from considering it. I imagine that's the point. And, if it means anything, the source that created/first introduced the Agricultural Corps never mentions the possibility of walking away from it, but this could be merely a reflection of Obi-Wan, who might not consider leaving a viable option.

    In theory, no member of the order is permanently bound to it... but as you note, in practice, it's all they're really brought up to know. Their ultimate choice is to start completely anew (assuming they're given that option), or to spend their days in a glorified summer camp. As far as I'm concerned, training Jedi from birth was one of the essential flaws of the OJO that was corrected with the NJO.
     
  10. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    [/quote]
    In theory, no member of the order is permanently bound to it... but as you note, in practice, it's all they're really brought up to know. Their ultimate choice is to start completely anew (assuming they're given that option), or to spend their days in a glorified summer camp. As far as I'm concerned, training Jedi from birth was one of the essential flaws of the OJO that was corrected with the NJO.[/quote]

    I agree. Starting Jedi training as a toddler is a little overboard. The NJO greatly corrected many mistakes the OJO made. I'm really not trying to bicker about the way the OJO ran. I just genuinely think the Order tood advantage of and abused their role in regards to training Padawans. If this kind of thing was going on right now I think it would raise a few flags. In a somewhat related quiestion, what happened to the Service Corps after Order 66? Did the Jedi farmers and healers get hunted down during the Purge and killed?

    The specific Kenobi material I'm using is The Rising Force and The Dark Rival. And as I recall, Kenobi was set up by a rival Padawan and his punishment was to be sent to the Ag Corps.
     
  11. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    The Lost Twenty are made up of Jedi Masters only. It does not include anyone of lesser rank.

    I'm not sure why something being unorthodox is particularly relevant.

    So?

    It's not forbidden in any way. If someone really wants to leave the Jedi Order, disapproval isn't really a concern.

    No.

    The Lost Twenty are more like a way of grieving for those the Jedi Order lost due to its own failings, the failure is placed on the Jedi Order, not the individuals.

    The Lost Twenty all have their own statues, they're not looked upon negatively.

    Not assuming, they are given this option, via The Jedi Path.

    What's the big deal about starting a new life? We do it all the time, without the power of the Force.

    Or exploring the galaxy, or scholarly pursuits, or healing the sick.

    So their choices are to go out and make a life for themselves (this after receiving a galaxy-class education and training, including training in the all powerful Force), or choose a career in the Jedi Service Corps, where they're pretty much guaranteed the necessities of life.

    Really, where's the tragedy? Sounds better than what most of us are given early in life.

    Disagreed.

    This is going on right now all over the world. Always has and always will.

    Many people raise their kids in a similarly strict fashion, just replace "Jedi" with athlete, soldier, etc.

    Any that could be found were either killed or converted to the dark side.
     
  12. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    Considering one third of the first Yavin class went dark, plus a couple of the next recruits, I don't know if that was much correction.
     
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  13. Parnesius

    Parnesius Jedi Knight star 1

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    Sep 8, 2012
    Well, first off, those accounts and opinions are, to the best of my knowledge, all from young teens or darksiders who were young teens at the time, two groups composed, for all practical purposes, entirely of idiots. Their perceptions of the situation must be considered highly suspect. The position of the Order is that the four Service Corps and their members are honoured, and indeed numerous fully trained Jedi Knights and revered Masters have served in the Corps for extended periods.

    Secondly, the teenagers are told off by a collection of the galaxy's best and wisest beings who commune with the very will of the universe, who also happen to be said teenagers legal guardians. I'm inclined to trust the guardians' judgement over the wards'.

    Thirdly, even if we only consider the Agricorps, that's not just manual labour. Several sources have indicated members of the Agricorps are trained to use the Force to coax the growth of crops and members may well be assigned based on this particular affinity for chlorokinesis. Doubtless some in the Agricorps happily dedicate their lives to tilling the fields and so forth, but it's clearly not the only option.

    I think the slavery nonsense has been sufficiently dealt with.

    I am, however, curious to learn what alternative model is proposed to the present Service Corps system.
     
  14. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Not to mention that the guy the OJO didn't train from birth... killed them.
     
  15. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz JC Head Admin & Community Manager star 8 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 21, 2002
    The "The One Sith need recruits too, man" system.
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    He wasn't the only guy that they trained. Ki Adi Mundi was 4 when recruited.
     
  17. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    I should point out Luke wasn't trained until he was 18.
     
  18. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
    To your first point, I think it's a bit much to classify every teenager as an "idiot." If the majority of these Padawans have been trained since birth I would guess they have a much better understanding of how the galaxy works than most. The issue I have with the Service Corps is that regardless of skill, if a student is not chosen by a Master by a certain age they get sent off.

    To your second point, I also think it's inappropriate to classify the OJO as the wisest beings. It is abundantly obvious the OJO was corrupted along with Senate. And they were so wise they couldn't discover the Sith or prevent a manufactured war. A rare few were even able to tell their clones had turned on them and were killed. If they were the wisest in the galaxy, then wouldn't they still be around?

    To your third point, I do agree it's not all manual labor. They still use the Force and do provide for the greater population. However, from what I have read, Jedi were not given a choice as to what field to go to. They were assigned. Why not allow the Jedi to choose which field to go into to, if they are going to be forced to join the Service Corps.

    Last, I will concede that Corps are not outright slavery. But it does have a slavery feel to it because the Padawans are uninformed and not given a choice to decline the Service Corps and continue on their regular Jedi Training.

    To be honest, my alternative model would be not to right off a student just because they are not at the desired level of skill. Each student should be worked with on an case-by-case basis and be aided to better their knowledge of the Force...not told "Sorry, your not good enough. Go do this medial task instead."
     
  19. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    It reminds me a lot of Oswald Mosley and the old 1930s era British fascist party which said that the value of a person was their utility to society, and everybody should be forced to serve where they would be most useful. It's creepy.

    These kids aren't given a choice. They're kidnapped as children and brainwashed to believe in the greater wisdom of their captors. It's Stockholm syndrome on a massive scale -- Patty Hearst writ large. It's frightening.

    It's good that this sort of thing was done away with. We don't need their kind.
     
  20. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 6 VIP

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    Jul 8, 1999
    Kal Skirata? Is that you?
     
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  21. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't understand the question and I won't respond to it.


    Especially since it sounds like some sort of profanity.
     
  22. Danzo

    Danzo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 20, 2012
    I always found the fact that if a padawan wasn't as strong as some others in the Force they'd get sent here. For example you have Scout in Dark Rendezvous who is approaching the age where she'll be sent off, despite having already been picked by a Master previously and having only not been chosen again because her connection to the Force isn't a strong as others. Never mind that she's got as much resolve as any other padawan and that she is still able to fulfil the majority of tasks that any Jedi could. These guys are supposed to be about the meditating and peace-keeping role yet she's gonna get sent away because she can't hurl as many guys across the room with her mind as others can. Doesn't sit right with me. Then again, since AotC a lot of the ways the OJO is written feel too focused on combat potential than the previously established roles the Jedi filled.
     
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  23. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 24, 2010
    I've always thought the OJO's policy of taking kids away from their families at toddler age (rather than informed and voluntary enlistment of adults) is rather disturbing. I get the point that they want to raise children without families so they don't have any attachments... but shouldn't they rather teach them how to overcome these attachments, once formed, rather than try to keep them away from any chance of forming attachments at all?

    Also, with this recruitment policy and the various Corps and stuff I sort of get the impression the Jedi Order is trying to draw in all Force-sensitive individuals in the galaxy, without giving them a choice whether they actually want to be Jedi or do something else with their talents. So it seems what they're doing is actually monopolizing the galaxy's Force potential, probably out of fear that every Force-sensitive individual without Jedi training might go dark at some point. I don't know if this has ever really been said in the EU, but it's the overall impression I get.
     
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  24. Chewbacca89

    Chewbacca89 Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 25, 2012
  25. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

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    Nov 28, 2000
    Yeah, I knew it was a Mando of some sort. That's why I called it a profanity. ;)