PT Watching the PT for the first time (otherwise very familiar with OT)

Sorry, happens with years of using the computer more than writing and, when writing, using a script that's not Latin. My Serbian cyrillic tends to be less messy.

As I have said in the first post, I dislike some fictional characters, but I don't go around yelling about that or spending countless hours thinking why I can't stand Mushu the dragon.

Also, bolded the best sentence from your post - people often just...go with the flow. As a fan of what was hated before Jar Jar and, if the SWCA comments on certain toys are objective in any way, a generally WTF character, I can relate to this. No valid arguments? No hate.

 

I probably saw Episode 1 before any other Star Wars film. I really like your aspect on the PT. I wish they didn't get as much hate as they do, because when I was 5-7 years old, Nobody hated it where I came from. Now everyone seems to bash it. At least here, on a true Star Wars fan forum I can read the real talk.

 

Good thread!

Do you plan on watching the sequels in theaters this time around?

 

Let's try that again...

So, what about 'valid' opinions? How about logical, reasoned criticism of the PT? To what extent do you guys see that as motivated by going with the flow and conforming to normality?

 

It does seem like that PT fans feel that any criticism of the PT should be downed with fire and that any support of any aspect of the OT is an automatic strike against the PT. That is just my opinion.

 

I like the PT. However, I can point out its flaw, whereas some of its dislikers just scream endlessly on the internet how there's nothing good about them.

The PT lacks intelligent characterization, a central plotline and a main charatcer to serve as an anchor. If I seemed to call their opinions invalid, that was not my intent.

 

I do have some logical criticism to contribute, too. I just didn't get to make sense of those little white pieces of paper from the photos yet. I also cannot recall saying that I'm a fan of the PT, just that so far, based on seeing two out of three films, it didn't look as bad as people describe it. At the same time, I presented my background in the OP, so you could understand that different people see things differently. I even poked fun at my former being repulsive to people hyping things.

A blunt yes or no to something would not be worthy of a thread. The post before the one where I said I saw AOTC is the kind of stuff I consider to be anything but contributing to the discussion. Say I was a PC user and I complained to somebody about a problem and they took a screencap of my problem to mock Windows in their Linux or Mac community as opposed to helping somebody out. Makes no sense.

Why, thank you.

Of course. Would not miss that for anything, let's hope nothing weird happens by December 2015.

7 is close to the age (I think) I was when I first saw the OT on TV and the same way you could not grasp this, I could not understand that somebody would e.g. find villains cool. It's actually awesome to see how our perception of things may vary based on when and where we grew up, what was largely popular at the given time and how exposed we are to mass media in general.

 

I'm gonna break the flow of replies here to just kind of give my quick opinions. I grew up with the PT, and saw TPM in theaters when I was 5. Perfect age. LOVED IT. As soon as I saw it I knew I wanted to make movies the rest of my life, and now I am a film major in college. However, now that I am older and can see all 6 films for what they are, I think the PT clearly are weaker films from a story telling perspective. Moreso than little dialogue examples here and there or small annoyances (i.e. C-3PO puns or Yipee!!!), I think the greatest failure in the films is in drawing true audience connection when Anakin turns to the dark side. To me, the films feel like Anakin is just this rowdy teen who suddenly turns whole-heartedly to the dark side instead of trying to figure out some kind of other option. Supposedly, this greatest jedi of all time would have figured out something besides abandoning everything he's ever fought for. I never truly bought his transformation, yet the elements of human connection that are present in his dissent should appeal to everybody! Anakin turning to the dark side is relatable to people struggling with their faith, their identity, their sexuality, their family, their friends, their world view, their political opinions, their spouse, etc, etc, etc. Giving up a belief that you've so fundamentally held, or at least struggling with it, is a human experience that is so relatable to everyone. I feel like GL should have capitalized on that emotion waaay more than he did. I think a failure to capitalize on emotional connection are also apparent in Anakin and Padme's romance and the overall theme of loss in the trilogy. It seems to me that really only TPM does a good job of capitalizing on emotional opportunities, with Anakin leaving his mother and Qui-Gon dying (darn you soundtrack for the Qui-Gon's noble end!). Anyway, I still love the PT and think that, despite how much more they could have been, they were still well made. You can't judge a film on its missed opportunities, you just have to look at how well it did with what it had. I love all six films and they have tremendously impacted my life. Despite my recognition of the PT as weaker, they will always hold a special place in my heart as my first favorite films.

 

Breaking the flow? Nah, that was awesome.

Your reply is in the lines of one of the things I noticed and was about to write down - Anakin's angst, so far, after two out of three films, just didn't look like temptation. More likely...complete confusion and teenage angst, mixed with rants typical for a narcissist. I just did not expect the young Vader to be an Elliot Rodger type of sorts. Now I'm pretty sure that everything that should've been unfolding from the first frame of PT will look cramped in ROTS.

 

Wow can't believe you haven't seen the pt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Oh it's definitely cramped. In my opinion, the very opening scene of ROTS is the best opening of any of the Star Wars' hands down. Then, the next 40-50% of the movie is absolutely horrible. I think that the whole middle section of ROTS is probably Star Wars at its all time low. Pacing and emotional flow just don't exist. But then suddenly, around 70% through the film, everything changes and the end of ROTS is ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. I could watch it 100 times and still buy into all the right beats (save for Obi-Wan's absolute.... you'll understand when you see it haha). So ROTS is interesting. Outstanding opening, bad middle, fantastic ending. It's definitely a journey, but one well worth taking!

 

Interesting observations, swish19. I'm curious--where exactly are your ROTS "break points" for the division into the three parts you describe above? (i.e., which scene do you count as the first of the middle section you don't like, and which scene toward the end marks the shift into the strong ending?)

(you may want to spoiler tag them out of courtesy since Ewok Poet hasn't seen it yet)

 

I don't mind, as I more or less know what happens.

The only thing I do mind in this thread is the post above yours and the one you quoted. Not nice, not welcoming.

 

Are you going to watch The Clone Wars after you're done with the prequel trilogy?

 

Yup. I'll watch the older and shorter series first and then switch to the 5-season one.

And yes, I still need to write down things I promised, started working on Monday and a bit distracted, plus waiting for my ROTS to arrive, so I can sum everything up.

 

Ewok Poet
Just note that the older 2D-animations aren't considered canon anymore, while the 3d animated series is.

Pensivia
I would have to say that once Anakin crashes Grevious' ship kind of marks the end of that first section which is amazing. My second "break point" would have to be when Anakin turns to the dark side maybe. The whole climactic sequence from that point on is just fantastic. What are your thoughts?

 

Love the screencaps!!


**BIG TIME-CONSUMING LIST OF AOTC "ANALYSIS" SOURCES NOW FOLLOWS**


NEGATIVE APPRAISALS


Fun ten-minute thing:




Longer "hit list" -- requires reading:

http://www.chefelf.com/starwars/ep2.php


Even longer YouTube video "review" -- infamous, fun, and long:





POSITIVE APPRAISALS:


Brief essay on politics:

http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~anne/clones.html


Longer essay on symbolism and themes:

http://brightlightsfilm.com/38/clones1.php


About-the-same-length essay from a more holistic "film criticism" point-of-view:

http://wondersinthedark.wordpress.com/2010/04/08/bob-strikes-back-at-attack-of-the-clones-naysayers/


Fan commentary collated from these boards (TFN) many years ago:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/137614996/My-Favorites-from-AOTC-where-GL-shines-Anything-on-Tatooinedoc


Epic six-part fan analysis -- the mother of all prequel-movie fan essays written by a single devotee:

http://www.lardbiscuit.com/lard/shroud.html



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There aren't really any spoiler warnings I need issue. I don't think any of those sources give much away about ROTS; and some were created before ROTS came out.


Come back to us after you've seen ROTS and I have one final recommendation for you. Won't talk about or reveal that one until then. (It's along the lines of the positive AOTC essays, but even more expansive.)

Equally -- if not to an even greater extent -- there is a general tetchiness that seems to appear on command when a PT fan either criticizes or merely highlights a troublesome, clunky, or awkward moment or aspect (or one that they feel is such) in the OT. People who are big-time fans of the OT and staunch haters of the PT seem to suddenly flip out at the idea that THEIR deep and holy love is being attacked; even when the criticism is mild or no attack is occurring.

This is definitely something that goes both ways IMO. And for what it's worth, I see more jumpiness from OT fans, than PT fans, the latter of whom normally profess to liking the whole saga (unlike OT fans, many of whom are quite vocal in denigrating the PT and its fanbase, and often express a desire to see it either heavily re-edited or completely re-made). Probably, at some point, every fan of every persuasion has felt burned; but the discussion tide is still against the PT (and often its fans).

Even though you say that George Lucas should have capitalized on this more than you feel he did, this is still a cogent take on the Anakin character -- IMO. Just felt like quoting it. Thanks.

Nice thoughts. The way I see it, however, is that ROTS has an outstanding opening, a compelling middle, and, yes, a fantastic, emotional, operatic, kick-ass ending.

I love the direction in the middle and love seeing all those cogs turn. Maybe it lacks the dynamism of the beginning and the end, but there needs to be a place for the film to breathe and build before that rollercoaster cart comes (positively) flying off the rails.

JMO.



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Very nice thread again, Ewok Poet.

Hope you enjoy Episode III and come back to the prequel trilogy for repeat viewings.

IMO, this set of films is worth the effort.

 

Cryogenic I don't believe the middle suffers because it lacks the "dynamism" of the beginning and the end - I completely agree that a film needs to breathe - but rather that it is poorly paced. There is so much stuff going on - so much emotional turmoil and political happenings - that gets crammed into about an hour. Instead of letting the emotions breath and fester, I feel that George almost bullet points the plot points that HAVE to happen in order to finish the film and then just adds a wipe in between them to transition. I think that ROTS could have benefitted greatly by tacking another 30 minutes or so onto the runtime. Just enough time to fill out those scenes and allow us to take in the emotional flow as opposed to just receiving plot points.

 

I also think ROTS -- and AOTC -- should have been a touch longer. Maybe not 30 mins each, but somewhere between 10 and 20 each.

And yes, in ROTS, I'd stick those extra bits (mostly) in the middle section, which is a pretty busy passage, and slightly too terse for my liking. The screenplay definitively shows that Lucas not only intended more scenes (also made clear by the presence of some of those scenes as deleted material on the DVD and Blu-ray), but also more dialogue in the existing ones. He pared ROTS down quite a bit; maybe a bit too much.

I still like the middle section an awful lot, though. It does cover a lot of ground in a fairly comprehensive way, despite the truncations IMO. And it remains a very compelling hour of Star Wars for this 'lil fan.

 

Let's face it, we're looking for needles in a haystack here

 

Without wanting to drag this very interesting thread into another PT / OT debate, I must say that my experience of the respective fan groups has been very different to what you describe here.

 

And why can't we just...like everything? Like I now happen to?

I obtained ROTS yesterday and since my ragweed allergy was killing me, I couldn't sleep and I watched it. I cried like a nervous wreck 5-6 times throughout the film, which did not happen with the first two films and I have only three pieces of paper with random remarks, as the dialogue in this one wasn't as WTF as in the previous one and I have seen less illogical stuff.



Cryogenic, before I give you the reply your post deserves, I'm just saying thanks and hoping out loud that people will be as helpful once I tackle the world of roleplaying games. XD

I'm aware of that, but I just have to see it, I've always been a huge fan of Genndy's work.

 

You can, and the proportion of people who would say otherwise would be infinitesimally small.

 

Was that because of your allergy?
Kidding, kidding -- almost ten years after I first saw it, I still can't even think too hard about the Immolation without getting wobbly. And actually watching it still makes me tear up. As does Obi-Wan's discovery of the truth and his conversation with Padmé :'(



Would you mind confirming if I've read your notes correctly? I was a bit unsure about some...

"By allowing Anakin to be the hero doesn't Obi-Wan just make him worse"

"How could he learn all that so fast???"
[Also, I'm curious as to who and what you're referring to here...? And I love Boga too ]

Thanks for continuing to update us on this. Fascinating insights!

 

Nah. I cried during a video chat with a co-worker over changes on a mobile version of some website, though...it must've been hilarious to her, as if those changes were deeply affecting...the way I feel about sliders being covered by other content and the menu not working?! Such a tragedy. :/

This was real crying, I experience something like that during Contact (the 1997 film starring Jodie Foster), long before she even meets their deceases father and I have that going on for a couple of songs by a local singer known for deep lyrics and it isn't even just the most touching scenes that make me cry, or random glurge moments - it's every other thing. I did expect this film to be emotionally intense, but I did not expect some of those moments, such as the one when Obi-Wan releases that Grievous has an unprotected, beating heart, will ruin me to that extent.

Of course, everything that lead to Padmé's demise, from the first moment I could sense it, was the other, more normal reason for crying; while the "tragedy" of a hot-headed young adult man getting corrupted by the evil didn't touch me that much.

"How could he learn all that so fast???" - chak, that one is referring to Darth Vader's sudden knowledge of everything Sith. I wonder if Cryogenic had this in mind when they stated that the film should've been a bit longer. Something's missing, to the point where I no longer consider Luke's training on Dagobah short.

"By allowing Anakin to be the hero doesn't Obi-Wan just make him worse" - chak, that was my thought when they landed in Coruscant upon "saving" Palpatine and Obi-Wan let Anakin have all the fame.

The other notes read:

"Is there a Twi'lek that's not a sex object?" - there was one in a plunge dress before the last voting in the film, and that was what I thought...then I remembered Bib Fortuna. But still...

R2 "screaming" - I found this funny and somehow, in some scenes he reminded me of Schlutz from an obscure and likely banned Daffy Duck cartoon from the WWII era.

"Twice the pride, double the fall" - just a line I liked.

"The 'you're beautiful' convo - WTF?!" - IMHO, that short bit of dialogue was worse than all the love scenes in AOTC. Just...cringe-worthy, territorial pi**ing, possessive kind of a thing. Made me feel uneasy.

And Boga... <3 <3 <3 ...as cute as Baga. Maybe even cuter.