Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline

Exactly.

While starting NJO Luke should be better, Anakin is not the best/most powerful at the time of RotS. Of *his* generation, sure... but he's of a different generation to Obi-Wan, Mace and *certainly* Yoda.

He feels the Force more strongly than any other Jedi - this is true, but to put it in the same words Obi-Wan used to Luke, he 'cannot control it' to the same extent as someone like Yoda, Mace or Sidious.

The very fact that he is equal to Obi-Wan Kenobi, third greatest living Jedi in the entire Order after he's had thirteen years of training to Obi's near forty, is all the testament to his power there needs to be.

If Anakin was on Mace or Yoda levels however, he'd not only have *demolished* Obi-Wan on Mustafar, we'd have seen evidence of his Force abilities overwhelming Obi's. The fact that they produced a Force push of equal intensity was to highlight the fact that they were completely and totally equally matched - both in Force and blade ability.

Cyborg Vader is more powerful than RotS Anakin. You think he was just blowing hot air when he told Obi-Wan that he was the master now? Why would he keep waxing lyrical about the power of the dark side unless he'd increased in strength? He's lost a lot of his former potential (60% of it in fact), but RotS Anakin had barely scratched the surface of that potential, so he still had a fair bit to climb until he was at the "80% of the Emperor" that he supposedly is.

Your guitar comparison was very apt. In this context, your teacher is a Mace/Yoda and you're a Skywalker. Sure, Anakin's more talented than they are, but they have the greater mastery over the Force and would still hand him his ass... he's the best/greatest Jedi Knight (in that he's more powerful than most of the masters). The greatest amongst the masters, however, would defeat him.

Had he been given another couple of years of war however, who knows?

 

Young, vigorous, energetic talent will always loose to old slimey skill and experience.

 

Vader and the Emperor would disagree with you

 

If Anakin was on Mace or Yoda levels however, he'd not only have *demolished* Obi-Wan on Mustafar

Fact is that Anakin actually is on their level. Not experience wise, but power wise. Both Obi-Wan and Mace acknowledge this.

Cyborg Vader is more powerful than RotS Anakin. You think he was just blowing hot air when he told Obi-Wan that he was the master now?

Yes the PT Vder is more powerful due to more experience and stronger physique. His Force Powers are probably about the same as RotS Anakin, if not slightly weaker (and keep in mind that Anakin hadn't even reached half of his potential at that time).

In this context, your teacher is a Mace/Yoda and you're a Skywalker.

Yes. Anakin Skywalker of Episode II

 

'Fact is?'

No, he's not. Mace Windu would cripple RotS Anakin in a duel, as would Yoda. Sure, he's the "most powerful", but his ability to channel and control that power is not on par with Mace or Yoda.

In terms of what he's *actualised*, he's Obi-Wan's equal. That's still amazing, coming in joint third, but he's not a Mace or Yoda as of RotS.

I like the idea of introducing an "aptitude" attribute, but there is no need for Anakin to be souped up to Mace/Yoda levels in the RPG.

 

That's your opinion, I'm afraid.
And "more powerful" means: better overall, not: more potential.
Obi-Wan acknowledges that Anakin is "as powerful as anyone who has ever been on the council". This includes Mace and Yoda.
Mace claims Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi alive and still growing stronger.
The RotS novel describes Anakin as "the best there has ever been"
Fact is (yes, fact is) that anything Mace or Obi-Wan can do, Anakin can do... and sometimes do it better. He feels and channels and uses the Force to a degree that no one even comes close to. And he's only 23... He could have become the most powerful being in the history of the galaxy!

Anakin is not Obi-Wan's equal. He by far exeed him power wise. This come from George Lucas himself.
Anakin Skywalker from RotS is arguably the most dangerous man in the galaxy... to anyone but Obi-Wan. Kenobi knows Anakin. He knows how he fights, how he thinks, how he moves.
Obi-Wan is forced to remain on the defensive the entire duel and doesn't really beat Anakin in outright saber combat. He out-thinks Anakin and emerges victorious. Had Obi-Wan simply been some other Jedi, with Obi-Wans skill and power level, Anakin would have butchered him.
For Gods sake, man... Anakin killed the leading lightsaber instructor of the Jedi order with ONE HAND!

 

Normally, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that Anakin is better than Mace or Yoda as of RotS is absolutely ridiculous. And this is expressed in their RPG stats surpassing his. Oh, and in the fact that they can hang with Darth Sidious.

That's HIS opinion I'm afraid. And the novel goes to great pains to show us that Obi-Wan sells himself short. He's also Anakin's friend and strongest supporter.

Again, Mace's opinion is an opinion though it has more merit than Obi-Wan's, since he's not influenced by friendship. That said, "powerful" can simply mean that the "weight behind his blows is stronger" (so to speak).

Luke: I feel the Force!
Obi-Wan: But you cannot control it!

It's the same thing going on here. Power and control are two seperate things. Anakin's got a hella lot of the former, but not so much of the latter.

What next? Are you going to tell me that had he beaten Obi-Wan, Anakin could have killed Sidious straight off the bat? (I hardly count the alternate video game ending as canon) You're quick to fall on quotations from the novel, so how about this one:

Sidious: He is powerful... potentially more powerful than even myself.
In this instance it is clear that "powerful" is being used in the context of "being better overall".

Yoda to Obi-Wan: Strong enough to face Lord Sidious you will NEVER be.
Yet he's fine sending him after Darth Vader? When Darth Vader is, according to you, better than everyone else?

Yeah, and in the same paragraph the RotS novel also says he is unstoppable and unbeatable... but, uh, how did it end? Oh yeah, with Darth Toast.

Hyperbole.

I don't disagree. Anakin sometimes CAN do things better but he doesn't have sufficient control over himself to ALWAYS be doing things better.

I'd love, LOVE for you to explain why it is, if Anakin is so much more powerful than Obi-Wan, Lucas went to such trouble making them appear equally matched. You can explain the bladeskill by the fact that they've sparred for so long and know each other as brothers, but WHY couldn't Anakin overwhlem Obi-Wan's force push?

Because they were (more-or-less) equal.

I have bolded the things I agree with here.

"Anakin is more powerful but Obi-Wan has more experience" says George Lucas, indicaticating that is what balances them out... but wait, according to you "more powerful" must ALWAYS mean better overall...

Nope. I'm afraid that, if they're NOT equal, then it's Obi-Wan who is "better overall".

Yeah he does, he slices off his limbs. Obi-Wan "remaining on the defensive" is simply the way he fights. You'll recall that the novel actually indicates that the main reason

 

Normally, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that Anakin is better than Mace or Yoda as of RotS is absolutely ridiculous. And this is expressed in their RPG stats surpassing his.

If you disregard the Obi-Wan, Mace and Matthew Stover quotes, then there should be absolutely no reason for you to bring in the RPG stats. If anything the RPG stats are "just an opinion". Sorry, man.

Again, Mace's opinion is an opinion though it has more merit than Obi-Wan's, since he's not influenced by friendship. That said, "powerful" can simply mean that the "weight behind his blows is stronger" (so to speak).


... I think that theory is a little bull. I mean:
MACE: Anakin Skywalker's blows have more weight behind them than any other Jedi in the galaxy, and he's still getting stronger!

... I really don't think so.

Are you going to tell me that had he beaten Obi-Wan, Anakin could have killed Sidious straight off the bat?

Are you telling me he couldn't?

In this instance it is clear that "powerful" is being used in the context of "being better overall".

Well, that is the definition of the word.

Yet he's fine sending him after Darth Vader? When Darth Vader is, according to you, better than everyone else?

Becase he knows Anakin better than anyone. Perhapse even better than Anakin himself. Like I said Anakin Skywalker just may be the most dangerous man in the galaxy but Obi-Wan can counter his every move, because he has studied and fought with Anakin in a thousand battles. These guys aren't matched through pure skill, they're matched because the can pretty predict what the other guy is gonna do even before he knows it. Plus Obi-Wan Kenobi just maybe the best defensive swordsman in the entire saga. (yes better than Yoda and Mace).
But according to Gillard Anakin is a better fighter overall than Obi-Wan.

Yeah, and in the same paragraph the RotS novel also says he is unstoppable and unbeatable... but, uh, how did it end? Oh yeah, with Darth Toast.

Again, not beaten in a straight up swordfight. Obi-Wan got a tactical advantage and Anakin overestimated his own power. A situation not unlike the Yoda vs Palpatine duel. Yoda was just smart enough to know he had no hope of victory in that senario.

I'd love, LOVE for you to explain why it is, if Anakin is so much more powerful than Obi-Wan, Lucas went to such trouble making them appear equally matched. You can explain the bladeskill by the fact that they've sparred for so long and know each other as brothers, but WHY couldn't Anakin overwhlem Obi-Wan's force push?

Because they were (more-or-less) equal.


In some areas maybe. But overall (and I quote George Lucas) "Anakin is more powerful".
Telekinesis just might be one of the areas where they are more-or-less equal.

but wait, according to you "more powerful" must ALWAYS mean better overall

Yes. Anakin is the best overall ... But the best don't always win.

Yeah he does, he slices off his limbs. Obi-Wan "remaining on the defensive" is simply the way he fights. You'll recall that the novel actually indicates that the main reason Obi-Wan is on the denfensive is because he knows:

"That to strike Anakin down would turn his heart to ash".


Slicing off someones limbs don't mean that you defeat them in a swordfight, I'm afraid. Then Anakin would have defeated Mace Windu... Obi-Wan being on the defensive is his style, I agree but just because killing Anakin would pain him, doesn't mean that he could have anytime he wanted to.

Everyone's quick to point out "Oh, Obi-Wan knows Anakin's fighting style and so has a huge advantage!"... but Anakin knows Obi-Wan just as well.

You've got a point here, my friend. But Anakin doesn't really strike me as the kind of guy who would even give the defensive nature of Soresu a second thought.
I'm guessing that of all the people in the galaxy, Obi-Wan Kenobi has the best chance of taking Anakin down (which he infact does).

 

There is a difference between power and skill.
Any fencer will tell you (if they're being honest) that at least 50% of fencing is luck. If you're having a good day and are very lucky, you do well. If not...

Skill is a huge factor, but luck is necessary.

There was a big deal a couple years ago when one fencer said that pitting him against a certain other person was like putting a pro football team against the local community college team. He was higher rated, and had been training for years longer. But, he had a bad day, and ended up eating crow.
Put another way, the other person had a very good day.

on the other end...

lots of starting fencers (especially in saber) put wayyyyyyy too much power behind their attacks. The concept of finesse doesn't set in for a while. I've seen sparks flying form non-electrical equipment. Why? Too much physical strength, not enough dexterity.
What ends up happening? The skilled fencers win the bout by scoring the points.
They also sometimes end up with tiger-stripe bruises.
(This is part of why I ended up leaving Fencing)

Power & skill are very different.

Dave Prowse (the guy inside the original Vader suits) was physically very powerful. On the other hand, he wasn't very skillful, and most of the fight scenes had to be filmed with Bob Anderson (the fight choreographer) in the costume.

And luck... (Even if Obi-Wan didn't believe in it)
Han Solo had an epiphany about the Force when his blaster flew out of his hand... Maybe Obi-Wan's spirit did later on...

 

That's not what I meant... I mean... urg...

Like, you can say: "this boxer is more powerful but this boxer is faster, who will win?" see? Would you argue that in this context powerful meant "better overall"? No, you wouldn't.

Anakin Skywalker IS more powerful, as the Force is strongest with him. Ok? But it's not power that is important, but skill and control. He doesn't have it to the same degree as Mace or Yoda yet, and cannot use it as efficiently. Well, not all the time anyway. When he gets "into the zone" he probably CAN pillage absolutely anyone. But he's not very good at *always* getting "into the zone".

Maybe there should be a rule that's like, "roll a d20. On an 18-20 Anakin gets +whatever to attack and defence rolls".

Yes. Well, I think Sidious has the greater chance of victory anyway.

Possibly... it seems fishy to me that after he loses the duel to Obi-Wan, Vader pretty much realises that he wasn't as great as he thought and that Yoda would have slice-and-diced him. He got competely humbled.

Vader: I wasn't strong enough to beat Obi-Wan
Sidious: Yup, so imagine what YODA would have done to you.
Vader: ...

Are you poodooing me? His statements aren't canon () . He also said that you can't beat the Emperor in a sword fight... (which probably indicates the last minute changes that were made to that duel actually... )

Not my point . The book said "unstoppable" and he was stopped. Which casts a shadow over everything else it said. Bwahaha.

I've already given you the Lucas quote:

"Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced"

To Lucas, that is his excuse for making them equal, which - as far as I can see - proves that the way in which he is using 'powerful' isn't "the best" but "more naturally gifted" or something along those lines.

Actually, I can probably except this - providing he's not THE best at any single thing. So, by RotS he might come in second (or third) in every area to someone else, which makes him the best overall, but means he is never completely out of the woods when he's fighting someone.

Are you related to the Black Knight?

Rubbish retort. Anakin hadn't been engaged in a terribly long lightsaber duel with Mace Windu. I wish he had been. You don't understand how much I'd LOVE for Anakin to be able to pillage any and everyone all the time... but most sources make it clear he can't/couldn't.

Oh, I don't think he could have done it "any time he wanted to", I just think that he didn't HAVE to be on the defensive. He could have pushed back.

 

That's not what I meant... I mean... urg...

Like, you can say: "this boxer is more powerful but this boxer is faster, who will win?"

Mike Tyson... Anyone??? Can you hear me in the back?

Anakin Skywalker IS more powerful, as the Force is strongest with him. Ok? But it's not power that is important, but skill and control. He doesn't have it to the same degree as Mace or Yoda yet, and cannot use it as efficiently.

Hmm... to some extent you're right, but I still Anakin could do anything these guys can do if he really had to. You agree that with a couple of years more experience Anakin would outshine the top Jedi, right?

Maybe there should be a rule that's like, "roll a d20. On an 18-20 Anakin gets +whatever to attack and defence rolls".

Thats not half bad, man. Good thinking.

Yes. Well, I think Sidious has the greater chance of victory anyway.


In a recent post I did on a "best saber duel of the PT" thread I actually put Palpatine slightly above Anakin in saber ability. However, with his fury unleased I think Anakin could demolish just about anyone in his path... except Obi-Wan.

Possibly... it seems fishy to me that after he loses the duel to Obi-Wan, Vader pretty much realises that he wasn't as great as he thought and that Yoda would have slice-and-diced him. He got competely humbled.

Vader wasn't as strong because his ability to use the Force was GREATLY reduced as a result of losing all of his limbs and suffering massive internal damage. He wasn't as strong physically because the suit (for a time anyway) hampered his movements.
The RotS Anakin is wayyyy more powerful than pre-suit Vader.


Are you poodooing me?


Sorry, man. I'm straight.

His statements aren't canon.

Well neither are ours... But I would venture to say that he knows a hell of a lot more about the fighting abilities of these characters that you or I do.

He also said that you can't beat the Emperor in a sword fight...

I think that statement was made prior to the windu duel being changed, as you say.

Not my point . The book said "unstoppable" and he was stopped. Which casts a shadow over everything else it said. Bwahaha.

Well technically, technically... Anakin was never stopped in RotS. Vader was

"Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced"

To Lucas, that is his excuse for making them equal, which - as far as I can see - proves that the way in which he is using 'powerful' isn't "the best" but "more naturally gifted" or something along those lines.

But that's not what the word means .
Actually I think it was Lucas' way of explaining why Obi-Wan, who is outclassed, is able to prevail in the end. You mentioned boxing before... This duel is, IMO, in some ways similar to the Rumble in the Jungle. Obi-Wan didn't have the ability to take out Anakin straight on, so he had to out-smart him.

Are you related to the Black Knight?

Who?

Rubbish retort. Anakin hadn't been engaged in a terribly long lightsaber duel with Mace Windu. I wish he had been.

A duel needs to be long and terrible for someone to win it?
Botton line is that if Obi-Wan "defeated Vader in a straight-up swordfight" then Anakin defeated Windu too.

Oh, I don't think he could have done it "any time he wanted to", I just think that he didn't HAVE to be on the defensive. He could have pushed back.

Then why didn't he? He could have taken out Anakin without killing him (which he does).
He had to go on the defensive to survive and find away to beat Anakin.

If Anakin was really so damn brilliant that he could get into the "zone" at will, he'd have left Asajj dead and buried.

Mace couldn't kill Asajj either. Neither could Obi-Wan...

Source for the bolded bit please.


Can't help you out there, mate. It doesn't really matter does it? Anything I would have presented you with you most likely be shrugged

 

I hope you're not saying that the choreography in ANH was rubbish.
Bob Anderson is one of the best choreographers of all time, and has been active in Hollywood for decades. He is responsible for some of the best fight scenes ever filmed, and didn't have to rely on wire-fu for them. (Not that he never used wires, just that unlike most modern people he didn't need them to make a good fight scene).
Any "rubbish" choreography was strictly due to Dave Prowse being in the Vader suit.


Now, if you're saying the prequel choreography is rubbish... I'm not going to argue with you. Others may, but I won't.



As to the whole "who is more powerful" thing, think of it this way: Yoda has a 5 gallon bucket of water. Obi Wan has a 2 gallon jug. Most people have a thimble to a cup. Anakin has a 10-gallon vat. Now, Yoda and Obi-wan can manipulate and focus their water with precision, anywhere from a fine spray to a concentrated blast. Anakin has a fire-hose, with very ability to focus or finesse where the water goes. It took Yoda 800+ years of training to get where he is. It took Obi-Wan nearly 30. It took Anakin about 15. You have have tons of power, but not be able to use it properly. That's Anakin's problem.

 

As one green Jedi Master said to the saviour of the Galaxy

"Control, Control! You must learn Control!"

 

"...and then Sense and Alter! Sense and Alter!"

 

The RotS Anakin is wayyyy more powerful than pre-suit Vader.


... I of course ment: Post-Suit Vader...

 

heh, meant too huh?

</nitpicky>

I disagree with you though. Vader as of Episode 6 is a match for any of the other major Force users apart from Palps, Yoda and Mace, whereas in RotS he'd not match those nor Obi-Wan.

Take any game that has a 'potential' and 'ability' stat, the one I can think of right now is Championship Manager (football or soccer management game) each player had an 'ability' stat, which is basically where they're at, while the 'potential' stat says what their ability score could become. These were recorded by a number between 1 and 200, with 200 being highest possible.

In this Case, I'd say Anakin, Hot Shot Chosen one and all, as of RotS, had a 'potential' of 200, with an 'ability' of 120

So basically, he'll be the best ever, but isn't quite there yet, with hard work will get there.

After limb loss, and a lava swim, his potential decreases considerably, probably to around 150, his abilities drop slightly as they are 'hardwired' only really decreasing from the effects of the suit and force point expenditure penalties. But his extended Dark Side Service and everything brings his ability up to say 140 of a possible 150. He IS better, and is pretty much as good as he can get...

What he does lose, is the ability to go 'schitzo' and really open a can, like he did against Dooku. Again I put this down to Force Point penalties, in his suit his ability will consistantly be at 140, sometimes above, sometimes below, but only slightly. Whereas pre-suit he really did have the odd moment of utter brilliance.

 

^^^
I don't agree with the exact figures you use, but I do agree with the principle.

 

Heck, I don't agree with those figures either, but if it proves a point, it works

 

Monty Python reference He didn't think having his limbs chopped off meant he had lost a sword fight either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgQx-ZYwHyA

 

Calm down boys the new system will address these issues (I hope).

Anakin pre injury should be better with the saber, quicker, have better stamina, be better at enhancing his abilities, have a better defense, be better at Farseeing & telekinesis, better at tumbling etc & he will have more special qualities.

Crippled Vader should be better at all the other skills, he should have more force skills, more feats & more force feats - like force mastery etc.

Anyone who thinks that crippled Vader could take his pre-injured self in a fight is delusional.

Also if you watch the films, superior raw power with the force translates itself into physical strength & stamina (Although Speed seems to come with more with skill).

 

With the work Anakin put into upgrading his suit (and thus limbs), as well as whatever the sith holocrons threw at him, I don't think it would have been that much of a problem. Probably a stalemate, like the Dooku fight in RotS was until Anakin lost it and used the dark side.

 

Then call me delusional. There was me thinking that OT Vader wasn't full of hot air about his previous incarnation being "but a learner" in comparison to where he was by the time of ANH. Oh well. I mean, he's got loads of other reasons to cite the power of the dark side in that case, hasn't he? Wait a minute...

The "Vader is a weakling" culture that has sprung up ever since Lucas made his "200% to 80% of the Emperor" comments is insane. He was referring to *raw* power in the Force, in other words: potential.

RotS Anakin had barely scratched the surface of his potential. Vader has near-as-dammit fully mastered what remains of his, which, at 80% of the Emperor, is pretty darn freakin' high.

Vader > Anakin.

Vader's not what he could have been, but he's still - overall - superior than he was. Sure, he'll miss those occasional flashes of pure brilliance, and sure pre-suit Anakin wouldn't not stand a chance, but Vader would win the majority of the encounters. What people are forgetting is that Vader has some down points, for sure, but he's essentially *General Grevious with the Force*.

When GL does remake the OT (as we all know he will), you can bet your little cotton socks that Vader will be one fast-moving mean BAMF.

If you want reasons for how Luke defeated Vader, there are a couple:

1) Vader didn't want to fight Luke at all. "There is no conflict" was a lie.
2) Luke is likely more talented than even Anakin was. That was the situation in Shadows of the Empire, and Lucas has not said anything to contradict it.

Vader is a Sith Lord with over three decades experience in the Force. Of course he trumps RotS Anakin, with his measly thirteen years. Now, had Anakin had say - another five years - we'd be talking about a different outcome. Without being injured, he'd have surpassed where Vader was by ANH in a fraction of the time... but that doesn't make him *better* than the Vader of ANH.

 

As far as the cybernetics go...
You have the resources of the galactic empire at your disposal.
They have developed cybernetics that are indistinguishable from the real thing, and they have developed some that look, well cyborgy. They have some that barely copy the function of the original limbs or whatnot, and some that are massively more powerful than human norm. The only limitation in combining these two factors is how much you're willing to pay and availability.

What do you think Vader is going to buy?

I'm thinking the less-bulky, strongest function, best neuro-relay response time. It's not like anyone is going to be auditing his medical accounts for imperial government employees and saying "You know, you could have saved the imperial tax payers over 100,000 credits by going with after-market discount cybernetic limbs. Did you even think of the people when you made these extravagant purchases, Mr. Vader?"
"LORD Vader!"

Suddenly "Darth Vader's Employee Evaluation" by Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie is going through my head again...

 

It seems some niggling details are being forgotten.

1.) The current D20 rules are not meant to roll epic characters like Anakin and Luke Skywalker. They're naturally unbalanced characters because their role in the GFFA is dictated by things other than RP rules (plot, storyline, etc.). If you need them to have megapowers just story tell them as having megapowers, don't roll them. Just say "Anakin needed to beat opponent X, so he did" and move on with the story if beating opponent X helps it move on.

2.) Anakin was full of himself. He had a lot of force potential but had actualized only a fraction of that. In AotC he bragged about being as good a swordsman as Yoda only to have Dooku slice his arm off. In RotS he was still pretty full of himself. His mind was also clouded by all sorts of things like falling to the Dark Side, force choking Padmé, betraying the Jedi, far-seeing Padmé die in pain, feeling used by the Jedi and Sideous and the list goes on. He was under the impression he was a bad-ass that couldn't be beat which is a surefire way to open yourself up to being beat.

3.) Stats for canon characters in various sourcebooks vary wildly over the map. You can't really trust any single source for canon characters as each one if going to roll them based on their particular rules or features introduced. The PotJ and TDS books have far different rolls for canon characters than less specific books like the RCRB. The D20 RPG also doesn't support any sort of Epic character status which is really what some canon characters (Yoda, Mace Windu, Palpatine) ought to be.

I've never had good luck adding epic canon characters to my games other than as backdrops. I've run games where the PCs were rallying at a rebel base that Luke was also at. There was a bit of offhand interaction but the characters' story did not directly include Luke. It saved me a lot of trouble worming my way through a lot of canon material and kept the PCs as the heroes of the game. Including canon NPCs can be good for keeping a game decidedly SW themed but I don't think they need to fit neatly into RP templates if something that breaks the rules moves the story along.

 

I have no doubt that Vader has learned a lot over the years, he was basically as good as he could be. His mastery of the force is evident in the fact that he no longer requires hand gestures, he has mastered his emotions (hence the ?I am the master now? comment to Obi Wan), he has become a cunning foe, a master of intimidation and a formidable military commander.

However lightsaber combat is no longer Vaders bag. He is forced to use brute force & telekinesis to win his battles. Vader obviously can?t increase his own strength through the force because they aren?t his arms. His reflexes will never be that great because his mechanical parts aren?t in psyche, no matter how quick his mechanical limb can move it will never move as quick as a limb guided by the force (watch Kenobi cut Grievouses hands off). Etc ect.

The most telling blow is the ease in which Luke beats him in ROTJ. Luke dominates & dictates the entire duel before getting angry, when he?s mad Luke overpowers Vader with ease.

Simply put Anakin Skywalker in ROTS was far more polished and more powerful then ROTJ Luke.